Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[RipClaw]

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Yes, this is my personal worry. Though lets be honest, finding that tier3 recipe early might be the highlight of a game but it is a pyrrhic victory as it often means you walk through the middle game too easy.

 

It is interesting, on one hand I would like surprise finds of OP stuff for variety, but hate them for making the game too easy. 😉

I saw something in the Apocalypse Now mod the other day that might solve this problem.

You can find legendary weapons and tools in this mod. They are extremely strong but you can't repair them. So you have to use these items sparingly.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:10 AM, danielspoa said:

100%.

But you know, its the EA syndrome: knowing whats fun for us better than ourselves. That was literally Joel responding players in previous diaries.

The game is far more beautiful than before, PoIs and vehicles are more diverse, many game-breaking bugs were fixed. Who doesn't remember the zombies running in circles? minibikes disappearing and driving at 15 fps?

Yet the game itself feels more empty. Thats where the frustration lies, we got suberb improvements on what was missing before, but lost what we already had. Like.. why?

 

PS.: Careful, kuosimodo is here. Dude is a dislike machine, every single dislike in this page has his name

 

He perpetually dislikes posts without criticism and its tantamount to passive aggressive harrassment.

 

But because of this he is worthy of zero consideration. I would happily engage him in a constructive discussion should he (or she) wish to have one.

 

Btw I agree again on the empty feeling. I've noticed I've become bored a lot sooner on these updates.

 

The beautiful cities are unfortunate lagfests, the drone caused tremendous slowdowns with vehicle updates, and the zombies are great with HD models but hordes of clones undoes the efforts to beautify the rest of the world (which has admittedly come a long way.)

 

I think in some sense we have lost more (in value) than what we have gained (in fluff.)

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by meganoth
offensive language (see edit history)

[danielspoa]

11 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Have you tried feral sense or going into cities? 

I did. Feral sense made the game harder, but in an unrealistic way and without making it more complex or adding interesting mechanics. For that purpose I settled with Walker Sim later.

As for cities its pretty standard: everyone sits at a city's border near the trader. Trader which is completely broken balance-wise, but thats for another day.

 

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I saw something in the Apocalypse Now mod the other day that might solve this problem.

You can find legendary weapons and tools in this mod. They are extremely strong but you can't repair them. So you have to use these items sparingly.

 

wait I had that in A19 oO

I had modified textures for the legendary items, and logic was the same: stronger but no repair. I found the texture files here, just excuse my poor choice of colors: screenshot - substance painter

Edited June 2, 2022 by danielspoa (see edit history)

[danielspoa]

so... messages moved again?

[Diragor]

It's always like this. They announce a big change, some people hate on it. Then it gets released and no ones crying about it. I Love the LBL idea and I want to try it out as soon as possible. Cause I hate it, that I am forced to spend most points into INT to get any progress (Forge, workbench, traps, electricity, etc.)

 

These magazines are a great change. I can finally skill what I want without worrying that I can't craft the forge without INT. Also If you want to play this game without looting, then go play with this:

F1>Type in "cm">tap the "U" button on your keyboard and pick every item you need.

 

Stop crying about a change before ever trying it out. It will be awesome! and it finally stops my uncle from mining all day and getting the most progress cause he builds a lot. Now he MUST loot sometimes ❤️

 

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Btw I agree again on the empty feeling. I've noticed I've become bored a lot sooner on these updates.

That's probably just (mostly) game "burnout".

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

That's probably just (mostly) game "burnout".

 

I understand some people experience it, though I dropped 7 days about 2 months ago and won't likely touch it again until another big update. I can confidently say in my case; at least in this instance, it isn't game burnout.

 

There was enough there to take me back to the game after the latest Alpha, but there really wasn't enough there to keep me. 

 

I play with friends too and the lag issues in cities as I've mentioned, as well as the weird vehicle update checks for the drone took out two of the most anticipated features for me.

 

I have other games to play, and study, so my play time is pretty balanced, but as people have discussed the game has lost a lot of good stuff and is filling with mediocrity. Take one example to make my point - the developers are spending time on old car wrecks and adding new vehicles, none of which are driveable - and adding new doors and other fluff.

 

If a poll were conducted on whether the devs should spend their time on those things or adding real variety in the form of new zombies - I am pretty confident the latter would get the vote. It's rather puzzling to see this isn't happening.

 

Re: The driveable vehicles. @faatal stated they wouldn't because theres no internal work done on them, that is if I have interpreted him correctly. Sad.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[beerfly]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

You won't get another drop of information about it from me though. 

 

*preparing a bucket*

 

Can`t wait for more drops from the devs, thanks !

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, Diragor said:

It's always like this. They announce a big change, some people hate on it. Then it gets released and no ones crying about it.

I wouldn't say that. After the release of first experimental you will read many such comments again and after the release of the stable again. Not everyone actively tracks the development and therefore many will only notice this change later.
 

32 minutes ago, Diragor said:

Stop crying about a change before ever trying it out. It will be awesome! and it finally stops my uncle from mining all day and getting the most progress cause he builds a lot. Now he MUST loot sometimes ❤️

Stop being so hyped about something you haven't tried yet. You might not like it after all. 😁

 

And as for your uncle, maybe he likes mining and building. If you also want to have the progress, why don't both of you swap roles and you go into the mine and build. Unless you don't like mining and building. Then be grateful that he handles this part while you can do what you like.

 

[Jost Amman]

7 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Take one example to make my point - the developers are spending time on old car wrecks and adding new vehicles, none of which are driveable - and adding new doors and other fluff.

 

If a poll were conducted on whether the devs should spend their time on those things or adding real variety in the form of new zombies - I am pretty confident the latter would get the vote. It's rather puzzling to see this isn't happening.

I'm quite surprised that in this statement, you're making the same mistake as an average uninformed player would do.

 

Everyone who knows how game studio development works, or at least everyone (like me) who's read about it over several years knows, will tell you that the "devs" who work on car wrecks and doors, are not even in the same field of expertise as the ones (like faatal) who work on AI and drivable vehicles.

 

Also, consider this: we're nearing release! Yes, I know, it's probably still a few years away... but my point is that TFP are now, IMO, in that part of the development cycle where you start making all the hard decisions. Time is limited, and so are dev resources. People are becoming more and more impatient, but you need to finalize the remaining systems the way you want them. So, on one hand, they're refurbishing the crafting system because it makes more sense than the current one, while on the other hand they also need to lock down the systems that are not ready for release at all (like water).

 

Considering all this, it's no surprise the devs are not going to add more vehicles or improve electricity or add more zombies. These are all system that already work ok.

Maybe in the future, after release or even during Beta, they'll actually ADD more stuff to the systems that work. But that won't compromise HOW the system works, it will just add more cake types to the selection.

[bdubyah]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:09 AM, zztong said:

Interactive Hazzards -- Is there a way to run the big red pipe through a wall? That is, is there some block that is part wall and part pipe, rather than leave a big square hole in a wall and then route a pipe through it?

I could be wrong, but it looks like it's based off the same trigger system the keyracks use currently. It could be that the pipe is more for decoration other than maybe the valve parts and where the fire comes out. Valve=keyrack, fire=door. Just a guess though.

[Diragor]

54 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I wouldn't say that. After the release of first experimental you will read many such comments again and after the release of the stable again. Not everyone actively tracks the development and therefore many will only notice this change later.
 

Stop being so hyped about something you haven't tried yet. You might not like it after all. 😁

 

And as for your uncle, maybe he likes mining and building. If you also want to have the progress, why don't both of you swap roles and you go into the mine and build. Unless you don't like mining and building. Then be grateful that he handles this part while you can do what you like.

 

I Love mining and building. Thats why, when we (family) play together, we always have our own Bases and often test out different designs and test them solo or with multiple people. it's fun and everyone can have the full experience of the game.

[Callum123456789]

6 minutes ago, overgoat said:

Question on the new skill books:  Will the previous perks from the old skill books still be available in other forms?  Do they unlock in order now as you get more and more books?  For instance for mining is there a way to find gold/gems while mining and eventually have the chance to auto-kill ore blocks?

oh im pretty sure those books are staying the magazines are just an addition not a replacement 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm quite surprised that in this statement, you're making the same mistake as an average uninformed player would do.

 

Everyone who knows how game studio development works, or at least everyone (like me) who's read about it over several years knows, will tell you that the "devs" who work on car wrecks and doors, are not even in the same field of expertise as the ones (like faatal) who work on AI and drivable vehicles.

 

Also, consider this: we're nearing release! Yes, I know, it's probably still a few years away... but my point is that TFP are now, IMO, in that part of the development cycle where you start making all the hard decisions. Time is limited, and so are dev resources. People are becoming more and more impatient, but you need to finalize the remaining systems the way you want them. So, on one hand, they're refurbishing the crafting system because it makes more sense than the current one, while on the other hand they also need to lock down the systems that are not ready for release at all (like water).

 

Considering all this, it's no surprise the devs are not going to add more vehicles or improve electricity or add more zombies. These are all system that already work ok.

Maybe in the future, after release or even during Beta, they'll actually ADD more stuff to the systems that work. But that won't compromise HOW the system works, it will just add more cake types to the selection.

 

I see your point but it's not my job to know what each developer does.

 

What I pointed out was what's being worked on and what isn't as far as we have been informed. You only have to replace 'Broken car replacement, new door creation, and fluff' with whatever Zombie creation devs are doing and my point remains and is perfectly salient.

[Syphon583]

1 hour ago, overgoat said:

Question on the new skill books:  Will the previous perks from the old skill books still be available in other forms?  Do they unlock in order now as you get more and more books?  For instance for mining is there a way to find gold/gems while mining and eventually have the chance to auto-kill ore blocks?

Madmole's original post wasn't entirely specific on this point, but he does mention that "books that used to unlock recipes will be reworked to do something else." No where does he state that the magazines are replacing them.

[RipClaw]

50 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

Madmole's original post wasn't entirely specific on this point, but he does mention that "books that used to unlock recipes will be reworked to do something else." No where does he state that the magazines are replacing them.

There are some books that unlock recipes such as the recipe for the M60, the steel club, military stealth boots  and couple of mods like the drum magazine. The books that unlock the M60 and steel club will probably be replaced with new books. The steel club and the M60 are T3 weapons which means they will be unlocked by magazines.

Edited June 2, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

21 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You can no longer skip tiers by a lucky find.

Yes you can. You can still loot or buy the actual tool or weapon... You just can't skip past it in crafting. How many of us actually craft tools or weapons anyway? I know I rarely do anyway. I find them in loot usually long before I have enough parts to craft them.

2 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

You only have to replace 'Broken car replacement, new door creation, and fluff' with whatever Zombie creation devs are doing and my point remains and is perfectly salient.

No, it's actually not. You're still ignoring the basics. Artists work on art. Coders code. Artists doing their thing does not stop the Coders from doing theirs.

[Roland]

11 hours ago, danielspoa said:

so... messages moved again?

 

Yep. Long conversations that are not directly involving a developer get moved out. It has been this way for the last couple of years. The dev diary is for asking questions and engaging in discussion with the developers and not for debating whether the new changes are good or bad for the game with other random fans. If you have specific questions about the new changes, that post will remain. If a developer responds then that post will remain. If five random people speculate on the answers to your questions and then you respond to their speculations  and so on--- all of that will get moved except for your initial questions. 

 

That way people who are asking questions are more likely to have their questions be seen by a developer rather than have their question get lost in a long debate. Also, there is nothing stopping developers and our QA guys from reading this overflow thread and they often do. There are plenty of both positive and negative feedback posts still remaining on the dev diary. But when someone counters one of those posts and then a conversation develops out of that, those things get moved within a day or two.

 

If you feel strongly about something that needs some discussion then start a thread in General Discussions.

[Roland]

15 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

I've noticed I've become bored a lot sooner on these updates.

 

That's because you already had many hours played before the update. We have reports of players already into the 1000s of hours and they started with A20. 

 

So even soulless A20 seems to still have the power to provide the type of fun you remember from when you began for many new players today.

 

The point of the updates is not to add enough new content to keep veteran players enamored but to get the base game fleshed out and ready for release. 

[Syphon583]

2 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

How many of us actually craft tools or weapons anyway? I know I rarely do anyway. I find them in loot usually long before I have enough parts to craft them.

This really depends on a number of different factors, including playstyle and RNG. I'm all for finding better gear in loot, but in my current no trader/vending playthrough, I've had to craft quite a bit myself because I've come across more recipes (or perked into them) and parts before being able to find better gear. If I'm playing with a trader, that's usually the opposite, as they typically reward with better gear before I can craft it.

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

Yes you can. You can still loot or buy the actual tool or weapon... You just can't skip past it in crafting. How many of us actually craft tools or weapons anyway? I know I rarely do anyway. I find them in loot usually long before I have enough parts to craft them.

According to what I have read so far, the trader in A21 will only offer things that are a bit better than what you can craft. So this option falls flat and unless they lowered the required lootlevel you have to have at least a lootstage of 100 to find T2 items and 190 to find T3 items. And those are mostly Q1 items. Even with the 250% loot bonus of the wasteland you will hardly reach such a high lootstage in the early game.

 

In one playthrough I found the schematics for the auger and the schematics for the crucible early on. Motor tool parts drop very often. Therefore, these were not a problem. 

This lucky find allowed me to skip steel tools. I found an auger much later in the game.

 

And by the way, almost all of my equipment is crafted except for the Q6 items.

[Javabean867]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:51 AM, ZeMayoMan said:

I went out of my way to come make an account just to be able to comment how much I hate the new "learn by looting" changes.

 

Seriously, I started playing this game in Alpha 20 (later than most) and if this change comes to the game, I will stop playing. It sucks the fun out. My entire friend group that I play with feels the same way.

 

"Learn by Doing" is silly because it's insane to have to craft 100 shotguns or whatever to get better at making shotguns - why make the player do useless crafting of items they don't want and aren't going to use - and the new "Learn By Looting" is worse because it appears to exist for no reason other than to artificially slow the player's progression down. The current system of magazine series and perks is great because it allows the player to determine what direction they want their build to take - and the idea of only progressing by looting (which is only one of many activities to do in the game) is just silly. It also means that players are now fighting for loot instead of playing cooperatively because the only way to progress is hogging the loot, and we need to do insane amounts of looting to find all the new magazines. Limitations should only be added when they make the game more fun. For example, requiring the player to have a perk to craft an item is a fun limitation because it allows a gradual power progression and creates goals to work towards. The player can achieve these goals in many ways - killing zombies, looting, doing quests, building, farming, etc. You've now made it so that any time not spent looting is wasted time in the eyes of the game.

 

I'm really excited about some of the other changes that are supposedly coming to the game soon, but this single change has me upset enough to quit playing the game altogether. I really don't understand why we keep reworking systems in the game that have been reworked 2 or 3 times before already? But then maybe that's why the game is still in alpha after 8 years...

 

I agree with the previous poster - it feels like EA syndrome - "we know what you find fun better than you do." It's never to late to walk back a bad decision - please avoid the sunk cost fallacy and revert the changes to skills. It's okay to experiment with changes or toss around new ideas, but don't commit to a bad decision just because you've already invested time and effort into it. Seriously, it's *good* that you're trying new things and always looking for ways to improve - it would be bad if you weren't. But sometimes an idea just isn't what's best for the game, and you have to not be afraid to toss it.

 

I post this not because I'm angry or anything, I just know that I really enjoy the game and I want to keep playing it - I don't want the game I love to become unenjoyable for me, which is what this change is going to do. The system we have is really cool and I really like it, I really hope we can just keep it so I can continue to enjoy the game.

I'm sure other people will have replied to you about this.  But a lot of people are @%$#ing for no good reason.  

I am sure in your group of friends that play together you will have people who go loot and hunt while others will be focused on building bigger and better zombie traps.  Right?

Then your experience will not change.  The people doing the looting will bring back tons of magazines that cover the things you want to do.  This has already been discussed.  They are the same people who bring you back random higher quality gear that you can't craft yet.  Your experience there will not change.

My honest guess, is that the progressions will feel natural and not rushed or slow. 

The only fair way to actually judge how it works is to actually play it yourself.  My guess is that you will either be meh about the change, or actually like it.  

[Matt115]

6 minutes ago, Javabean867 said:

I'm sure other people will have replied to you about this.  But a lot of people are @%$#ing for no good reason.  

I am sure in your group of friends that play together you will have people who go loot and hunt while others will be focused on building bigger and better zombie traps.  Right?

Then your experience will not change.  The people doing the looting will bring back tons of magazines that cover the things you want to do.  This has already been discussed.  They are the same people who bring you back random higher quality gear that you can't craft yet.  Your experience there will not change.

My honest guess, is that the progressions will feel natural and not rushed or slow. 

The only fair way to actually judge how it works is to actually play it yourself.  My guess is that you will either be meh about the change, or actually like it.  

I think... it's no reason to talk about LBD anymore. Because there is no chance they will scrap this A21 system xd

[Roland]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

According to what I have read so far, the trader in A21 will only offer things that are a bit better than what you can craft.

 

hmm...I'm not so sure about that but I'll see if I can find out. I think that the trader references your loot stage and not where you are at in your magazine hunting. Like I've said, under the new system, I can often craft better than what I can find or buy if I'm lucky and get lots of one magazine type.

[Matt115]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

hmm...I'm not so sure about that but I'll see if I can find out. I think that the trader references your loot stage and not where you are at in your magazine hunting. Like I've said, under the new system, I can often craft better than what I can find or buy if I'm lucky and get lots of one magazine type.

Well there is bigger chance to find magasine about something in places connected with this thing? i mean - in bar top chef magazine, in electric shop advance engenering etc