Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Damolann]

Removing the nerd poling won't really stop much.  You can always fly up there if you have a gyro.   We had a guy who always did that on the last server I played on.  I'm not sure what he's going to do in 21 since he won't get a gyro in the first week unless he plays 24/7 getting magazines.

[Roland]

I haven't seen anything to make me believe nerd-poling is going away. I didn't catch what Rick said regarding it in the video but I can't believe it was meant to convey that they will get rid of nerd-poling. It was discussed a long time ago and decided that it should remain and I haven't heard about any changes to that decision.

[wolfbain5]

3 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

wow, so you are using a known-to-be-cheesy game mechanics exploit to get yourself a resource that you are not supposed to have early game?

You little progression-skipping telephone-pole-nerd-poling steel stealer!

shame on you, nemesis of madmole!!!

@Roland did I just get a new title?

[BFT2020]

I thought that they stated since you can simply create ladders and do the same thing, there really wasn't any value of trying to remove nerd poling without affecting those that really getting into building in the game.

[NekoPawtato]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I haven't seen anything to make me believe nerd-poling is going away. I didn't catch what Rick said regarding it in the video but I can't believe it was meant to convey that they will get rid of nerd-poling. It was discussed a long time ago and decided that it should remain and I haven't heard about any changes to that decision.

Around 13:40 in the video, it sounds like they were thinking of an on/off toggle switch for nerd-poling (off by default) but you can still nerd-pole in an LCB

But they also said they talked about it off/on and that it was a pet peeve of theirs, so maybe it was just them brainstorming something but not actually committing to it? Or perhaps a past idea that got scrapped?

[Outlaw_187]

I personally don't use nerd polling except when building. 

Now have I used it, sure. If it goes away, so be it. 

 

Now back to the traders/secret stash issue. I agree with others that traders are OP. 

I know it's been mentioned before but maybe limiting the traders money either daily or even to cycle with when their inventory restocks. I think that would go a long way in limiting their OP'ness.

[zztong]

I don't know that I'd rate nerd poles as a problem, but I'd likely be surprised at what people do with them. If this mental exercise is the topic du jour, then...

 

I could see changing frames to be very weak - one hit by a zombie or friendly fire breaks one and they break under the weight of a player character should the player (or a zombie) climb, jump, or land on one.

 

In these cases, the player has to spend time and materials improving them into a significant block. This doesn't stop somebody from building a way up to the top of a POI. It just slows it down. Nothing will, nor should, stop the construction of solutions. It only really stops tactical placement to escape zombies.

 

I'd be okay with fragile frames. It kind of sounds like a neat mod.

Edited November 8, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[Roland]

In one past conversation about it in a team meeting the idea that most liked best was to give frames a native ladder attribute so that zombies could climb up after you and you as well could climb up and down them—-make them even more versatile like a scaffolding block but at the same time a liability since zombies could path up them as well. 
 

Honestly, the problem isn’t nerdpoling so much as it is designing a “treasure room” in an easy location like on a roof that can be so easily accessed by nerdpoling. If level designers take nerdpoling into consideration they can surely do some things to mitigate its abuse. 
 

That being said…I’ve always been for the removal of nerdpoling and even got its removal to be part of my mod back in the day thanks to the fact that figuring out how to make it happen intrigued someone who knew what they were doing. 

[wolfbain5]

making them weak sounds fun. you climb up; zombie pulls a Mortal Kombat's "get over here!" smacks the frame and it all falls down. makeshift pushing the unsteady blocks over scenario

Edited November 8, 2022 by wolfbain5 (see edit history)

[Blake_]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

In one past conversation about it in a team meeting the idea that most liked best was to give frames a native ladder attribute so that zombies could climb up after you and you as well could climb up and down them—-make them even more versatile like a scaffolding block but at the same time a liability since zombies could path up them as well. 
 

Honestly, the problem isn’t nerdpoling so much as it is designing a “treasure room” in an easy location like on a roof that can be so easily accessed by nerdpoling. If level designers take nerdpoling into consideration they can surely do some things to mitigate its abuse. 
 

That being said…I’ve always been for the removal of nerdpoling and even got its removal to be part of my mod back in the day thanks to the fact that figuring out how to make it happen intrigued someone who knew what they were doing. 

Making them a ladder is brilliant. POI are not the only exploit. You can cheese boars, wolf hordes, dog hordes, zd hordes, cougars, bears  and general dangerous situations in the middle of the wilderness by just making fast frames in a split second, so making them ladders can be nice. As long as zds ignore the ladder attribute until you are actually ON the blocks and do not get glitched in front of the player due to frames being climbable then it's ok by me.

 

Anyway, it is a significant gameplay feature that can actually be a chore to balance if it stays in.

[NukemDed]

20 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I don't see the point. We now have ladders that can be picked up again.

 

bazinga

11 hours ago, wolfbain5 said:

i personally wouldn't want to see the end of nerdpoling. I use it to get steel from telephone pole wrenching. now we could use ladders to get up there. but the frames block is glitchy. if you are full and the frame shape isnt on the exact wood block frame shape, it wont pick up the ladder shape. and that gets annoying. I prefer fun to small annoyances. I also use nerd poling while mining to start the main shaft, and at times, yes, that includes within range of a prefab.

how about if we could chop down the pole, and it fell down (with noise i suppose) and then we could harvest the top section when it is lying on the ground...

pretty sure that irl molecular composition doesn't change when tipping 90 degrees as it crashes to the ground...

[NukemDed]

nerd poling. a divisive issue.

do i nerdpole? yes

all the time? no

mostly when i get effed off because i fell of some stupid parkour heavy route to finish a poi in the way it was designed.

thats fine but i am old and useless at games and hate jumpy jumpy fall and start again type scenarios

the SINGLE best thing about 7dtd imho is i CAN circumvent any impediment when i choose to.  from nerd poling to cheating in that mini bike i earnt that fell thru the ground to, well hitting pause because i need a @%$#e or a drink or a root lol. you cant pause real life, so even thats an exploit really...

 

its all down to self discipline 

 

time to self discipline myself. @snowdog, and recommendations?

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, NukemDed said:

nerd poling. a divisive issue.

do i nerdpole? yes

all the time? no

mostly when i get effed off because i fell of some stupid parkour heavy route to finish a poi in the way it was designed.

thats fine but i am old and useless at games and hate jumpy jumpy fall and start again type scenarios

the SINGLE best thing about 7dtd imho is i CAN circumvent any impediment when i choose to.  from nerd poling to cheating in that mini bike i earnt that fell thru the ground to, well hitting pause because i need a @%$#e or a drink or a root lol. you cant pause real life, so even thats an exploit really...

 

its all down to self discipline 

 

time to self discipline myself. @snowdog, and recommendations?

In my opinion, it isn't as much about self discipline as about a design choice. I do use nerd poling and I realize that , in the same line as improving water survival would improve the game and would make it more thrilling and rewarding, so would fighting and engaging 7dtd in a more visceral and risky manner.

 

It's those tiny controversial little things that make the big impact when you explore: oh, no, a wolf! Would you fight, flee? Or jump, jump, place forward, jump, upgrade and be safe?

 

[RipClaw]

58 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

In my opinion, it isn't as much about self discipline as about a design choice. I do use nerd poling and I realize that , in the same line as improving water survival would improve the game and would make it more thrilling and rewarding, so would fighting and engaging 7dtd in a more visceral and risky manner.

 

It's those tiny controversial little things that make the big impact when you explore: oh, no, a wolf! Would you fight, flee? Or jump, jump, place forward, jump, upgrade and be safe?

If you run away from a wolf in 7D2D you will only die exhausted. You have limited stamina, the wolf has unlimited stamina.

And fighting only makes sense if you have any chance to kill the wolf. Later this is no problem but in the beginning you don't need to try it at all.

 

Taking away the player's ability to get to safety only causes a death spiral because the wolf is still near your backpack when you want to get it back.

 

[Laran Mithras]

Item Degradation is already in the game. Items degrade, have to be repaired. Any further "Item Degradation" "enhancement" is just tedium to placate masochists. I don't want to have my M60 go from breaking to exploding into nothing to satisfy someone's idea of "Item Degradation Enhancement."

 

Let the excellent modding community put that kind of tedium up for offer.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Laran Mithras (see edit history)

[Tete1805]

Instead of removing nerd polling, they could also try to remove the pickup option (E) when outside your LCB.

You would still be able to escape, but it would cost you a little bit.

[JCrook1028]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

If you run away from a wolf in 7D2D you will only die exhausted. You have limited stamina, the wolf has unlimited stamina.

But the wolf will give up and not use that "unlimited stamina". Running away is perfectly valid and works just fine.

[Games'n'Grumble]

On 11/4/2022 at 9:04 AM, faatal said:

This will remove the chunk's data and when you visit it again, it is recreated as it was before. Some parts may randomize, like grass, but parts like POIs should come back the same.

I have two questions about this feature:
1. what will happen to the veins? If a player has completely dug out, for example, a vein of iron - will it return to its original "full" state after 15 days? Or can it randomly not appear there at all?
2. And what will happen to the map? Veins can be found on the map, looking at the points, will they change now?

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Laran Mithras said:

Item Degradation is already in the game. Items degrade, have to be repaired. Any further "Item Degradation" "enhancement" is just tedium to placate masochists. I don't want to have my M60 go from breaking to exploding into nothing to satisfy someone's idea of "Item Degradation Enhancement."

 

Let the excellent modding community put that kind of tedium up for offer.

That is the way it will have to be. It is pretty simple to do for those who want it. Just remove repair kits. When your weapon is done scrap it for parts and go without until you can find or craft another. It really improves the game….for masochists. 😀

 

15 minutes ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

I have two questions about this feature:
1. what will happen to the veins? If a player has completely dug out, for example, a vein of iron - will it return to its original "full" state after 15 days? Or can it randomly not appear there at all?
2. And what will happen to the map? Veins can be found on the map, looking at the points, will they change now?

The chunk returns to how it was when it was originally generated for your fresh new game. While there might be slight randomizations, for the most part it is exactly the same. So the vein would return. The surface deposits would also return and show up on the map. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

He even ruined one of Matt's newsstands that way... now they're "worst enemies"!  

WHERE IS HEEE!! 😵

[bachgaman]

They need to add a delay for placing blocks if there is an enemy nearby. Either always. The same must be done for repairing blocks and objects.

 

This solves the problem of exploit "nerdpoles" and instant restoration of doors and walls during a BM siege

Edited November 8, 2022 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:18 AM, Blake_ said:

As a veteran, I use it a lot, and I must say that I seldom die and it's mostly because of the wood frame gods, so maybe it's not that fun to not struggle as intended.

Thanks in advance.

 

I've been meaning to say this for a while... but dude, I'm pretty sure you are the nicest guy I've never met.  Every single post is that of a perfect gentleman.   I'd offer to buy you a beer but you probably don't drink (not meant as an insult).     I'm inspired to be more like you both on forums and in real life.

 

If only the inspiration lasted more than 2 minutes, pretty much my duration on anything I do....   Best 2 minutes of your life though, if interested.

Edited November 9, 2022 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Blake_]

11 hours ago, Melange said:

Okay. So if indeed nerdpoling were to be eliminated. Firstly, most airdrops caught in trees would become forfeit. Unless, enterprising and scheming as we are on how to boink that decision, we just carry a few hundred frames and make a set of stairs. A bit more time, but I'm not jumping up to place a block under me. Hence not poling. Ugly and inconvenient, but it will get the job done when hoping against hope there's antibiotics in that airdrop because I'm infected.

 

Or one can just stick blocks to the side of a building or one block away (to consider window protusions) and build a set of steps in a similar fashion. Probably won't be as effective for a really high Dishong Tower type of POI though. But I run those pretty much as intended anyways.

 

Point being, stop us players if ya can. We will find a way to thwart it, even if we need a mod to do so.

 

I did forget about the hay block trick though. Haven't considered or done that in ages.

 

Quite frankly, as all of us have enough to deal with the game tweaks from one Alpha to the next, I'm dismayed by those within the community who like to insist that their interpretation of the 'rules' is superior to my interpretation. And in SP, Ya'll ain't even in my game. Sheesh.

 

 😀

All valid gameplay tactics. The main point is that those stairs, slopes or ladders that you are building take time, so the issue of nerd poling away from danger in an instant is solved by your smarts and  planning beforehand, whereas if you do it in an instant to cheese everything, it's a bit unbalanced and can-objectively- be considered a kind of "cheating your way out of trouble".

 

Placing convenient blocks here and there no matter the amount is a wise tactic. I do it fewer times than I should precisely because of nerd poling. You can still "nerd stair", but not in time, forcing you to man up (or girl up, lol) and/or flee.

[NukemDed]

16 hours ago, Tete1805 said:

Instead of removing nerd polling, they could also try to remove the pickup option (E) when outside your LCB.

You would still be able to escape, but it would cost you a little bit.

and hurt a bit getting back down

[NukemDed]

17 hours ago, Tete1805 said:

Instead of removing nerd polling, they could also try to remove the pickup option (E) when outside your LCB.

You would still be able to escape, but it would cost you a little bit.

 

 

all this angst over nerd poling and stash cheesing... next comes the how dare you tell me how to play... we have seen this cycle over and over.

 

if the devs prevent it, some clever sausage will mod it back in so no one needs to be upset about it. seems like everyones tastes can be catered for somehow.

 

i am pleasantly surprised we havent had a blow up over the secret stash being removed. does that mean we have grown up a bit and @roland can give us another crumb?

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by NukemDed
i type slow (see edit history)