A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Red Eagle LXIX]

45 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

It's not like that... Roland explained that zombies are now able to duck a bit and pass throw 1 & half blocks, they're not able to crawl through 1 block openings (yet) IIRC.

I will bet even many of the 1.5 places they can crawl through a player will not be able to and that will be and is immersion breaking.  As a person in that world would see a zombie crouch and crawl through a spot then logically they should also be able to crouch and get through the same spots.

The immersion gets broken knowing one cannot go through those same paths.  You are no longer experiencing that world, just playing a game and some design rule says they can go that way but you can't.  The rotting zombie is able to deftly maneuver this tight path without a problem but my fully functional body can't.  At the very least they should take significant damage anytime they press through some opening a player cannot.

[Fanatical_Meat]

Come on guys the zombies being able to crawl thru small openings is meant to improve game play. I am sure pathfinding will work better with the change and that will make exploring poi’s & horde nights more fun.

[Laz Man]

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

It's not like that... Roland explained that zombies are now able to duck a bit and pass throw 1 & half blocks, they're not able to crawl through 1 block openings (yet) IIRC.

This, no reason to bring out the pitch forks.....yet......lol

 

Edit: As a side note zombies/baddies crawl out all sorts of places the player cannot in so many video games so I don't think it would be as bad as some may think.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[doughphunghus]

If players and zeds could crawl through a block opening, it would be amazing. You could make long “sewage pipes” to crawl through/under buildings and between walls, with snakes and zeds in them. break up a vent or drain cover to get to them, etc.
 

and you could be like “I’m tired of these MF’n snakes in these MF’n drains!

 

I mean, you can climb up and down a 1 block opening…

[Jost Amman]

31 minutes ago, doughphunghus said:

If players and zeds could crawl through a block opening, it would be amazing. You could make long “sewage pipes” to crawl through/under buildings and between walls, with snakes and zeds in them. break up a vent or drain cover to get to them, etc.

It's a false problem IMO. They could already build a sewer system right now (i.e.: under the cities) and use 1 & half blocks for the tunnels instead of the 1 block high ones.

[Yopo]

Others : not being able to crawl though 1 block gaps is breaking my immersion 

 

me: and being able to see though the world isn’t immersion breaking? 

[Roland]

19 hours ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

I will bet even many of the 1.5 places they can crawl through a player will not be able to and that will be and is immersion breaking. 

 

Its actually the other way around. The zombie pathing is not perfect and as I tested it out with 1<x<2 holes I made and low places I found, I was able to crouch through all of them without a problem while the zombies seemed really picky about what they would crouch and crawl through vs what they just started bashing to make a bigger hole.

[dcsobral]

23 hours ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

Will there be an in-game explanation for our players seeing a zombie go through a 1 block opening and wondering why they can't crawl through one?

It will defy the game's own world logic and break immersion.

They are filthy zombies, willing to debase themselves by crawling through muck and dirt. We, survivors, are above that. We will never lower ourselves to their level by lowering ourselves to the ground. We have higher standards, and higher standards require us to stand straight and tall so we can reach these standards. 

[Blackgryphon]

17 hours ago, faatal said:

23 hours ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

Will there be an in-game explanation for our players seeing a zombie go through a 1 block opening and wondering why they can't crawl through one?

It will defy the game's own world logic and break immersion.

Sure, that 2 ton backpack you are carrying does not fit.

Do you know how big a meter is? 3.2 feet.. I am a larger guy and I could easily fit through a 1 meter square space with a big backpack on.

[unholyjoe]

Just now, Blackgryphon said:

Do you know how big a meter is? 3.2 feet.. I am a larger guy and I could easily fit through a 1 meter square space with a big backpack on.

but not in our game

[Blackgryphon]

5 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

but not in our game

1) Careful. If you start ignoring what players want and just do whatever, it will hurt business.
2) When that ability was taken away, Madmole said it was for realism. That he wants the game as real as possible.. Yet, it is realistic that someone could fit through that space.  So which is? Do you want realism or not?

[unholyjoe]

#1 if devs added everything ALL the players wanted, the game couldnt be played on normal computers and would incorporate 50 different games... then we are no longer  different.

 

#2 re-read #1

 

[dcsobral]

20 minutes ago, Blackgryphon said:

Do you know how big a meter is? 3.2 feet.. I am a larger guy and I could easily fit through a 1 meter square space with a big backpack on.

I think the point was that the two ton backpack is so immersion breaking that it's silly to question something like crouching through 1m spaces on the grounds of immersion.  Players can't go through 1m heights for the same reason they can carry two ton backpacks: gameplay.

 

[Slaasher]

1 hour ago, Blackgryphon said:

1) Careful. If you start ignoring what players want and just do whatever, it will hurt business.
 

 

Oh stop, please.

[Kalex]

Personally, I would rather 1 meter ingress/egress remain eliminated for everything except crawlers, dogs and other small animals than go back to the head-clipping exploits and the teleport to the surface bug in a 1 m high space.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Blackgryphon said:

Do you know how big a meter is? 3.2 feet.. I am a larger guy and I could easily fit through a 1 meter square space with a big backpack on.

 

Are you sure? I mean, it would have to be a HUMONGOUS backpack to fit everything we can put into it. 

 

1 hour ago, Blackgryphon said:

1) Careful. If you start ignoring what players want and just do whatever, it will hurt business.

 

What you want has not been ignored.  It has been fully considered. Carefully.

 

1 hour ago, Blackgryphon said:

2) When that ability was taken away, Madmole said it was for realism. That he wants the game as real as possible.. Yet, it is realistic that someone could fit through that space.  So which is? Do you want realism or not?

 

Not quite. Madmole said it was for level design and appearance as the animations of the time were not good enough to show a character moving through a 1-meter hole without parts of his body and head clipping through the surrounding blocks and it would look bad. I never once heard him say that it was physically impossible for a person in real life to traverse a one meter hole. In fact, we do it all the time vertically with an installed ladder to boot. No.... realism was never the objection. It was 1000s of hours of redoing level design to account for the ability and balance it out and that was when we only had half the POIs we have now.

 

I think it was awesome too but I really don't see it happening even though with current animations they could probably make it look good.

 

The good news is that crafty modders will probably be able to extrapolate the ability and give it to player characters once it is in the game so it is very possible that 1-meter hole egress will be a reality at some point.

 

8 minutes ago, Kalex said:

Personally, I would rather 1 meter ingress/egress remain eliminated for everything except crawlers, dogs and other small animals than go back to the head-clipping exploits and the teleport to the surface bug in a 1 m high space.

 

This very well may be what it is limited to. Everyone keeps assuming all zombies will be able to do it but I'm pretty sure it will be limited to dogs, crawlers, and maybe the smaller females. Who knows...maybe they will give it to everything. If they don't...modders will be able to include everything and if they do modders will be able to exclude whichever zombies they want.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[dcsobral]

2 minutes ago, Ouch Quit It said:

Will weather and temp be fixed in A20. You can be layered up to the max and still be cold...as well as hot in the desert naked.   Also will food be adjusted....feels like my guy is eating for a family of 12 and still hungry all the time.

 

 

Coughs * Airport POI * Coughs

I believe weather survival was part of the outfit redesign, which was postponed to a21. As for food... do you lack food? Food is too abundant to me. Also, eating to fullness twice a day is more than enough (60 min days), which is very reasonable.

 

Then there's all the gaming aspects of both weather and food. For weather, for example, are you using hazmat as armor? Do you have the Well Insulated perk? Drinking coffee or yucca smoothie on the cold? For food, do you drink Red Tea before stamina-intensive tasks? Do you have the Slow Metabolism perk? Do you have ergonomic grips on the weapons and tools you use? Do you use low-stamina weapons and tools?

 

I don't think the game communicates all these choices very well, and I think they are not well balanced either. The perks are too expensive in my opinion. All other things you can do to offset food and weather issues will only be acquired by the time you don't need to concern yourself with food and weather anyway. In a way, it makes sense since survival should be a struggle early on. On the other hand, the problems caused by food and weather are nowhere near the hassle that is addressing them. It's just easier to drink more water and eat more food.

 

But I digress. I'm in a mood today. 😕

[samljer]

25 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

I believe weather survival was part of the outfit redesign, which was postponed to a21. As for food... do you lack food? Food is too abundant to me. Also, eating to fullness twice a day is more than enough (60 min days), which is very reasonable.

 

Then there's all the gaming aspects of both weather and food. For weather, for example, are you using hazmat as armor? Do you have the Well Insulated perk? Drinking coffee or yucca smoothie on the cold? For food, do you drink Red Tea before stamina-intensive tasks? Do you have the Slow Metabolism perk? Do you have ergonomic grips on the weapons and tools you use? Do you use low-stamina weapons and tools?

 

I don't think the game communicates all these choices very well, and I think they are not well balanced either. The perks are too expensive in my opinion. All other things you can do to offset food and weather issues will only be acquired by the time you don't need to concern yourself with food and weather anyway. In a way, it makes sense since survival should be a struggle early on. On the other hand, the problems caused by food and weather are nowhere near the hassle that is addressing them. It's just easier to drink more water and eat more food.

 

But I digress. I'm in a mood today. 😕

 

This. To me the system is broken... Just eat more food, drink more water.

I can be blinking red all day. as long as the cans of sham (lol) dont run out, its fine...

 

My proposed fix would be not ideal but easy to implement.

 

- Yellow sun/snow flake (increased food/water required)

- Red sun/snow flake (food water intake match yellow but now something else should happen) like:

-- HP loss, stam regen, speed (swing slower tools, weapons)

-- death if you dont leave in, 15minutes?

-- heat stroke debuff, treatable with something. if you dont leave for 15minutes

-- frost bite debuff, treatable with something. if you dont leave for 15minutes

 

 

as it stands now, its not a threat, at all.

[SnowDog1942]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 a bigger hole.

 

[Rabbitslovecactus]

3 hours ago, dcsobral said:

I believe weather survival was part of the outfit redesign, which was postponed to a21. As for food... do you lack food? Food is too abundant to me. Also, eating to fullness twice a day is more than enough (60 min days), which is very reasonable.

 

Then there's all the gaming aspects of both weather and food. For weather, for example, are you using hazmat as armor? Do you have the Well Insulated perk? Drinking coffee or yucca smoothie on the cold? For food, do you drink Red Tea before stamina-intensive tasks? Do you have the Slow Metabolism perk? Do you have ergonomic grips on the weapons and tools you use? Do you use low-stamina weapons and tools?

 

I don't think the game communicates all these choices very well, and I think they are not well balanced either. The perks are too expensive in my opinion. All other things you can do to offset food and weather issues will only be acquired by the time you don't need to concern yourself with food and weather anyway. In a way, it makes sense since survival should be a struggle early on. On the other hand, the problems caused by food and weather are nowhere near the hassle that is addressing them. It's just easier to drink more water and eat more food.

 

But I digress. I'm in a mood today. 😕

 

I agree, with the highlighted above,  especially the perk system. An easy solution that would work very well (YES I am going to beat this dead horse again) is Leveling up by doing. Or at least a hybrid system with what we have now. Level up by doing but get some point(s) to customize your character manually towards perks. Core skills like Tool use, fighting, eating, Type of weapon use, under water breathing etc.. should all be level up by doing. Then when we level up we get points towards stuff like 10% more ore when mining, 50% more damage with headshots etc... This would balance the game out very well IMO.  Current perk system is too expensive,  I always play with 300% XP enabled. I don't have as much time anymore, got kids...

Edited August 24, 2021 by Rabbitslovecactus (see edit history)

[Ouch Quit It]

Yeah I know all that but its annoying to see the flashing red all the time....just seems that food decreases ALOT faster than normal....seems like you are binge eating constantly. Kinda annoying.  As for temp...in the snow biome and I have a puffer jacket, overalls, cloth hood with the insulation mod, bandana and a hood ands assorted armor and im cold all the time....Temp has been whacked for several iterations and never seems to get much love......Game has gone backwards over the last few alphas....Same brokenm systems being reworked again and again............sigh.......endless circle it seems

 

Coughs* Airport  POI * Coughs

 

[samljer]

42 minutes ago, Ouch Quit It said:

Yeah I know all that but its annoying to see the flashing red all the time....just seems that food decreases ALOT faster than normal....seems like you are binge eating constantly. Kinda annoying.  As for temp...in the snow biome and I have a puffer jacket, overalls, cloth hood with the insulation mod, bandana and a hood ands assorted armor and im cold all the time....Temp has been whacked for several iterations and never seems to get much love......Game has gone backwards over the last few alphas....Same brokenm systems being reworked again and again............sigh.......endless circle it seems

 

Coughs* Airport  POI * Coughs

 

 

Yea, it can be silly; fully clothed with 50 layers should stop it unless youre wet.

[Matt115]

12 hours ago, Khalagar said:

We're reaching peak audiences, anime waifu and weebs! More Hololive streaming the game.

 

 

Even with it only being JP, the main stream is already at like 250k views in under a day. I'm telling ya, when it comes time to stream A20 bribe the waifu and the weebs will follow, and what game isn't improved by having a dedicated weeb fanbase?

it shoudn't : this game should be only knowed by deppresed guys which even WW1 is not deppresing enought. 7dtd must be grimdark and deppresing as hell no weeb stuff

[JCrook1028]

23 hours ago, samljer said:

as long as the cans of sham (lol) dont run out, its fine.

If you're eating the sham cans as a primary source of food then yea, you're gonna have issues. try eating actual food.

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

None of the Pass & Gases in the snow biome on Navezgane match the one in the random gen teaser image posted by faatal.

 

Hmmm...I wonder if the lights are working in that Pass-n-Gas...? Might need a tweak to the generator. Maybe someone will send somebody over there to do a service call...

 

Might take a whole crew if....um....you have a crew.