Please DEV's

[ROTeN]

1, Please DEV's Take away the zombies abilities to path to & distroy support beams of buildings/bases.

 

2, Please bring back the ability to build in trees. this give poeple somewhere to go when night comes for a quick safety area, other than logging off.....

 

3, Please bring back the old spikes, they were a lot more fun as the zombies walk on the spikes when upside down and it looks nicer too.

 

4 Make Jump jets a thing we can craft in game.

 

thanks, you all are doing a great job.

[Viktoriusiii]

*snip*

 

1. No!

2. No. (at least not as a safe place)

3. sure! Or at least a replacement. Since they avoid iron spikes like the plague (one iron spike is more than 10 dirt and one reinforced concrete for a zombie)

4. aren't they already? I thought I read about this beeing a mod that you can install into your boots.

[Gazz]

1. If you want invulnerable blocks you have to mod the game.

2. You already can.

3. They looked meh normally and not at all like a trap when upside down. That's why.

[n2n1]

////

3. They looked meh normally and not at all like a trap when upside down. That's why.

they looked dangerously. (the shape should not be a round cone, but octagon cone)

 

<property name="OnlySimpleRotations" value="true"/> - solve upside down problem.

 

 

+1

for remove mediocre pathfinding

[canadianbluebeer]

The cones are still there in dev blocks, and can easily be modded back in.

 

I do like putting them on the sides of things for that spikey punk look.

[Scyris]

they looked dangerously. (the shape should not be a round cone, but octagon cone)

 

<property name="OnlySimpleRotations" value="true"/> - solve upside down problem.

 

 

+1

for remove mediocre pathfinding

 

Yeah I miss the log spikes, I never used to use them upside down, just on the floor but I like how they last a while and don't break from 1 zombie walking over it. Should put them back and use that thing you mentioned to prevent them from being used upside down on cielings.

[canadianbluebeer]

Yeah I miss the log spikes, I never used to use them upside down, just on the floor but I like how they last a while and don't break from 1 zombie walking over it. Should put them back and use that thing you mentioned to prevent them from being used upside down on cielings.

 

actually, pointing DOWN from ceilings would make sense. hmm.. Pointing up from floor, down from ceiling ... JAWS!

 

yer gonna need a bigger boat!

 

[Linkhead2]

I still rememberer the days where they just didnt care about walls and ran straight for the door. That was so heavily exploitable because you just didnt build a door and theyd ignore you.

 

Or you could camp ontop of ur house and shoot the zombies when they approached the door.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

1. No!

2. No. (at least not as a safe place)

3. sure! Or at least a replacement. Since they avoid iron spikes like the plague (one iron spike is more than 10 dirt and one reinforced concrete for a zombie)

4. aren't they already? I thought I read about this beeing a mod that you can install into your boots.

 

I think programming Iron spikes to be avoided and go for the door makes it easier? I mean they arent destroying ur base, theyre coming for the door where u can gun em down with ease. Or beat the daylights out of them

[Scyris]

I still rememberer the days where they just didnt care about walls and ran straight for the door. That was so heavily exploitable because you just didnt build a door and theyd ignore you.

 

Or you could camp ontop of ur house and shoot the zombies when they approached the door.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I think programming Iron spikes to be avoided and go for the door makes it easier? I mean they arent destroying ur base, theyre coming for the door where u can gun em down with ease. Or beat the daylights out of them

 

IMO zombies should not be smart enough to walk around traps. They should see any trap as a air block. Which means they will try to walk thru it no matter what trap is there. It just pisses me off when I set some traps up and see the zombies just start pathing around them, its almost like why even bother?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

1. No!

2. No. (at least not as a safe place)

3. sure! Or at least a replacement. Since they avoid iron spikes like the plague (one iron spike is more than 10 dirt and one reinforced concrete for a zombie)

4. aren't they already? I thought I read about this beeing a mod that you can install into your boots.

 

The mod exists in the code, it is in game, it does work. However you can only currently get it via creative menu as there is no recipe or schematic in game to craft them, nor can you loot them or buy them from the trader. I'd also worry about what kind of fall damage you'd get from using them as well, which MAY be why you cannot get them in game yet normally.

[Dimpy]

I still rememberer the days where they just didnt care about walls and ran straight for the door. That was so heavily exploitable because you just didnt build a door and theyd ignore you.

 

Alternatively, you could spam doors to confuse them:

[hotpoon]

IMO zombies should not be smart enough to walk around traps. They should see any trap as a air block. Which means they will try to walk thru it no matter what trap is there. It just pisses me off when I set some traps up and see the zombies just start pathing around them, its almost like why even bother?

 

Agreed.

 

When I played A17.1, I saw that if a zombie would start bashing a block outside my base, and then I put a barb wire against that block (but on the inside), they would choose another block to start bashing...so not only were they actively avoiding traps, but they had x-ray vision as well.

 

Can anyone confirm if this is still the case?

[Roland]

Agreed.

 

When I played A17.1, I saw that if a zombie would start bashing a block outside my base, and then I put a barb wire against that block (but on the inside), they would choose another block to start bashing...so not only were they actively avoiding traps, but they had x-ray vision as well.

 

Can anyone confirm if this is still the case?

 

Its simply the expense of the path. It's not that barbed wire was added, it was that making it a more hp expensive pathway resulted in a different pathway being chosen as the cheaper one. They will always flow along the path of least resistance as their base movement rule but faatal is adding in some factors that cause some of them to forget the optimal path so it won't be quite so apparent.

[Darthjake]

1. If you want invulnerable blocks you have to mod the game.

2. You already can.

3. They looked meh normally and not at all like a trap when upside down. That's why.

 

Because I don't want indestructible blocks, I just don't want them to beeline to my support structures. If they rampage on them incidentally while trying to get to me, that's one thing. Auto-target / destroy the most vulnerable part of the structure sucks.

[Viktoriusiii]

Its simply the expense of the path. It's not that barbed wire was added, it was that making it a more hp expensive pathway resulted in a different pathway being chosen as the cheaper one. They will always flow along the path of least resistance as their base movement rule but faatal is adding in some factors that cause some of them to forget the optimal path so it won't be quite so apparent.

 

And this is something I fundamentally disagree with.

They should generally try and take the path of least resistance, yes.

BUT there are two things that NEED to be implemented, or this whole system is worse than ever:

 

a) they must ignore spikes and other traps. ANY of them. Not a single point for traps. They are mindless zombies with no sense of preservation. Traps are not "do not tresspass" signs. They are traps designed to catch the unaware. Be it animals in reallife or zombies in game.

 

b) if there is no direct line of sight, they should not know what lies behind.

What I mean by that is the following:

 

 

 

1_| || ||| ||||

2_| __|||| ||||

b ||| ||| __ | ____Zombie_____

4_||||_|_| |||

5_||||||||||||

 

its a bit confusing, but I dont want to start painting now. (basicially every | is 500 hp where every block can have |-|||| hp.

 

If the zombie has a as its goal, it should NOT go for the 2nd path, even if it is the easierst one. It should go for the 3rd, then soo that 4th is easier to break, continue on 4 and then goup again as they hit the 4 hard wall. (I know its hard to understand, but im really REALLY lazy )

 

 

NOW can you program in that "just hit randomly" thing. Then someone might "accidentially" break a stronger block that opens up the path more, but not because they know whats behind.

 

Basicially TL;DR:

You can calculate the route they SHOULD take/which are possible, but only ever give the zombie the information they have (so in sight, maybe around small corners) never more. (maybe on bloodmoon, but even then point A and B still should apply.

[Vaeliorin]

I just wish the zombies would quit marching in single file. Honestly, they're all trying to get to the tasty brains, they should be spreading out as much as possible to potentially be the first to get to you.

 

It's frustrating when you make a 5-wide kill box, and the just walk along either wall.

[Khulkhuum]

True that zombie senses should be able to know where players are on bloodmoon, but knowing the exact structure of the area with 95% probability of locating the weakest block from hundreds of them with just one glance (very short time to make a decision on where to go first)?

 

I DO understand that for the time being such high AI is dedicated for testing purposes and bandits will most likely behave in such professional manner, with Zs getting dumbed down. This is why i am waiting for next updates to see how things progress.

[OzHawkeye]

Basicially TL;DR:

You can calculate the route they SHOULD take/which are possible, but only ever give the zombie the information they have (so in sight, maybe around small corners) never more. (maybe on bloodmoon, but even then point A and B still should apply.

 

The problem I see coming if that's the preferred system is it greatly complicates the pathing decision calculations, placing more load on the average gamers PC, since the game, before it can calculate an optimal path for the Zombies to take, has to firstly calculate which blocks are eligible to partake in that pathing decision and which aren't.

 

Computationally, it would seem easier (lighter workload) to just include every block in range, than to try and work out which blocks to include and exclude first.

 

That said, I've got no hard information on how long those calculations take in the context of this game, just that two calculation processes are more than one.

[Khulkhuum]

This doesn't have to include taking into account or not blocks. The algorithm could simply stop calculating deeper as it checks through a 2 block high obstacle and verify the distance behind that obstacle. It still would count a number of pathways towards the player. For example, if there is a wall all around the player, a Z will choose the shortest path towards the weakest type of block (considering high AI), not counting the amount of walls behind those initial ones.

 

Also agree that traps shouldn't be calculated as you can walk on them/over them (taking damage, but still), whether you can't walk through blocks, doors, generators, desks, bookcases, etc.

[OzHawkeye]

This doesn't have to include taking into account or not blocks. The algorithm could simply stop calculating deeper as it checks through a 2 block high obstacle and verify the distance behind that obstacle. It still would count a number of pathways towards the player. For example, if there is a wall all around the player, a Z will choose the shortest path towards the weakest type of block (considering high AI), not counting the amount of walls behind those initial ones.

 

But what Viktoriusiii is proposing, is that the calculation first determine whether the attacker can even see the block, before deciding whether to factor that block into its "path of least resistance" determination (if I understand him correctly).

 

So, to apply that to your example, a player with a wall around them, the Zombie should simply attack the weakest block on the wall directly between themselves and the player, since the other three sides of the wall are unknown to it. Now, I like the idea of that, but I'd be concerned that it imposes more calculations on the pathing algorithm, since it now has firstly determine that the other three sides of the wall can't be seen by the Zombie, before it then does the calculation to work out which of the blocks that it can see offers the easiest way to the player.

 

It means an extra set of calculations on pathing.

[SylenThunder]

But what Viktoriusiii is proposing, is that the calculation first determine whether the attacker can even see the block, before deciding whether to factor that block into its "path of least resistance" determination (if I understand him correctly).

 

So, to apply that to your example, a player with a wall around them, the Zombie should simply attack the weakest block on the wall directly between themselves and the player, since the other three sides of the wall are unknown to it. Now, I like the idea of that, but I'd be concerned that it imposes more calculations on the pathing algorithm, since it now has firstly determine that the other three sides of the wall can't be seen by the Zombie, before it then does the calculation to work out which of the blocks that it can see offers the easiest way to the player.

 

It means an extra set of calculations on pathing.

On the other hand, just calculating line-of-sight would reduce the overhead. The zeds would go for the least resistant blocks in visible range. It would only care about the one side, or two if at an angle. Though this method also opens itself to huge exploitation in base designs.

[Khulkhuum]

Not necessarily open for huge exploitation. There would need to be more communication between zombies and more variation on their intelligence.

 

1. Introduce an action where a zombie does not charge straight from the start (low chance for any zombie to be like that), but walks around seeking alternative entryways (expanding line of sight and not those checking routes used by other Zs), just to signal some zombies in range that there is an alternate path. After a set number of checks it would simply go back to being a straight attacker. Additionally, only non-attacking for a small period of time could shift to a onlooker state.

2. Make Zs reuse previously done checks (i dunno if it is done or not). For example, you have 20 Zs charging from one direction in a big group. Why make 20 pathing checks, when only 1 to 3 could be done for the general vicinity or perhaps for those in front and everyone behind that would walk through where others are, would reuse the same checks.

3. Introduce zombie routing, where Zs would follow other Zs that are in attack mode (special range for that). For example, an onlooker found an alternate route from a side and called out others to the new "entrance", but new Zs running in would not hear him. Yet when they come close enough, they hear vivid Z sounds and first seek them (when there is no direct route to the player or no player in sight).

[OzHawkeye]

On the other hand, just calculating line-of-sight would reduce the overhead. The zeds would go for the least resistant blocks in visible range. It would only care about the one side, or two if at an angle. Though this method also opens itself to huge exploitation in base designs.

 

Actually, thinking about this some more, I think you may be right. The code will still have to examine all blocks within a certain radius of the zombie (which is what it already does), but then pathing calculations would only be performed on those ones deemed visible. So, that's less of a load - on the other hand, it then needs to determine whether each block was visible or not (which it doesn't bother to currently do), so that's a little more of a load.

 

I'm nowhere near enough of a Unity programmer to have any idea of whether the time saved on pathing calculations outweighs the time spent on determine whether to make those calculations on each block.

 

I do think Khulkhuum's idea of having a Zombie "leader of the pack" makes sense though, since the "followers" could just trail the leader, until the leader died and a new leader was elected from the followers. That might be able to cut down the load somewhat.

[hotpoon]

And this is something I fundamentally disagree with.

They should generally try and take the path of least resistance, yes.

BUT there are two things that NEED to be implemented, or this whole system is worse than ever:

 

a) they must ignore spikes and other traps. ANY of them. Not a single point for traps. They are mindless zombies with no sense of preservation. Traps are not "do not tresspass" signs. They are traps designed to catch the unaware. Be it animals in reallife or zombies in game.

 

b) if there is no direct line of sight, they should not know what lies behind.

 

Precisely.

With the present state of the zombies, I won't bother building a base. I actually haven't played since 17.1 because in my opinion, right now, zombies are broken.

[meganoth]

One way to widen the area of attack would be to make any zombie already standing in a path and hitting a wall count as an obstacle as well. So if a zombie is standing at a wall and hitting on a weak block the rest of the zombies would see that as occupied and look for the next weakest path/block to attack. This would still allow up to 3 zombies hitting the same block (two of them would attack from an angle of 45 degrees) and benefit from the group block damage.

 

Another idea: All possible paths are searched for exactly as now. But instead of removing all but the weakest path remove only paths that are more costly than 200% of the weakest path. Of these paths take the one with the weakest first obstacle. This would a) make VictoriusIII's szenario work out like he wants, B) add not too much calculations and C) still allow zombies to follow paths the player "handcrafted" for them to follow. And D) still work correctly in POI's

 

Precisely.

With the present state of the zombies, I won't bother building a base. I actually haven't played since 17.1 because in my opinion, right now, zombies are broken.

 

If you think so. I have made 3 very different horde bases in my last 3 games in A17, all of them worked very well without any exploits (aka what I consider exploits). And they were fun to build and "debug"

[Star69]

The base design I’ve been using for many versions just so happens to make no point of attack cheaper to use so when blood moon comes, the attack is very spread out & it’s fun to watch the ai work.

 

I build a reinforced concrete square base 12 blocks by 12 blocks with one door. Outside of the door I build a 6 block by 6 block cage using iron bars with one door to the outside. I surround the entire base with 5 rows of wood spikes with one row of barbed wire against that except in front of the door. Just before blood moon horde starts, I ‘block’ us in by placing 4 barbed wire blocks in the one block wide pathway from the door through the opening of the spikes.

 

When the horde comes, they spread out evenly along the entire side. The barbed wire slows them for a bit so we can shoot some of them. Once a barbed wire is broken, they quickly all go to that opening and poor into the wood spikes. Once the spikes go down, they go for the concrete walls. By this time, the horde is coming from a different side and the process repeats. Rarely are the walls breached and the killing from the roof or within the cage is quite fun and rewarding. If they do breach the walls, it can be tricky killing those inside. All forges/workbenches &valuable loot is picked up and kept in our backpacks. Horde night is not dreaded, instead we look forward to it.

 

You just need to experiment a bit to find a design that works then you will enjoy horde nights again.