CannedSmeef Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Hang on - don't misconstrue my comment to be about the farming discussion. It's strictly regarding the statement "more elegance = better game". -A More elegance = better game is honestly true in almost every case. Imagine a reality where every turn in monopoly the player has to make a calculation for 2% of what they own and pay that in tax to the bank. Sure it's more complex, but it's completely unneeded and just serves to make the game more taxing (ha) to play. What if minecraft's crafting table required rotten flesh for fuel for every craft? It's completely unnecessary and arguably makes the game much worse. It's the same reason why TFP switched to the list craft instead of the grid craft, grid craft adds absolutely nothing to the game other than just being a weird minigame that gets old after the first 3 times you make something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLOWN Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 How much nitrate are we talking about exactly? 10? 20? 50? 100? (I'm solely asking for one reason: The Dishong Tower Challenge. If you're unaware of it, it's where you have to survive in the Dishong Tower (you can never leave) and you must survive long enough to craft a gyrocopter and leave from the rooftop. It is possible, yes. I'm just curious on the nitrate cost of the planter boxes, because if it's high, then this challenge will be an semi-unmissed but unexpected casualty. ) thats sounds kinda interesting honestly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 In loot of course. What about those random farm plots in towns that might contain, say, 40 potatoes or 40 blueberries or an odd amount of corn? Are those gone in A18? Just asking, because in A17, that's how I got most of my seeds. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggsAisle Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Oh my, quite the flood of tears we've had. Very theatrical. "You're killing the game's SOUL!" "Planter boxes?! You might as well start all players with instant-kill guns with infinite ammo!" And my personal favorite is the dude going full drama queen and thanking modders, one at a time. You can practically hear his voice quavering with indignation. Get a grip, already. Sheesh! I can understand the disappointment with fewer world zombies, but they're a 'meh' execution as-is, they're expensive, and the replacement solution (random encounters, sounds like) isn't ready. 7DTD is never going to have the giant hordes of zombies other games have. The tech just isn't there. So they have to come up with different gameplay. Plopping a bunch of zombies randomly in the wilderness is too inefficient for what it brings to the table. Hopefully random encounters arrive soon and are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 More elegance = better game is honestly true in almost every case. Imagine a reality where every turn in monopoly the player has to make a calculation for 2% of what they own and pay that in tax to the bank. Sure it's more complex, but it's completely unneeded and just serves to make the game more taxing (ha) to play. What if minecraft's crafting table required rotten flesh for fuel for every craft? It's completely unnecessary and arguably makes the game much worse. It's the same reason why TFP switched to the list craft instead of the grid craft, grid craft adds absolutely nothing to the game other than just being a weird minigame that gets old after the first 3 times you make something. Now your making the incorrect conclusion in the other direction. I never said "more complexity = better game" either, and using a contrived example doesn't validate your argument. Again, more elegance does not equate to a better game (and I'll add for clarity's sake), more complexity does not equate to a better game. Having meaningful choices for the player makes a better game. Removing meaningful choices to simplify the game is not improving it. Neither is adding complexity which doesn't have associated meaningful choices. -A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Shame on you. You know maths, and you know *exactly* how statistics are abused! -A Indeed I do. But the truth is there is no statistical data here-- just personal experiences being extrapolated onto the world by everyone. My feeling is that I would like more interesting complex farming. Minecraft is simple and it is a very simple mechanic to have to farm within four blocks of a water voxel that adds a bit of complexity that our game doesn't. I wouldn't mind other more complex aspects of farming to be added that others have lamented as "unexplored potential" But seriously, the vanilla game can be simple as long as it allows for being made complex by mods. Modding is the answer for complexity and gracious fans and modders will recognize the genius of TFP's simple vanilla framework as the springboard while others will call TFP's game crap and bless the modders for saving it. Who hasn't played a mod that had A, B, C, D, E, and F in it and you wish it only had A and B for whatever reason? The vanilla game should be simple yet infinitely expandable. If TFP does their job right then a modder will be able to turn this game into "Harvest Blood Moon" for like-minded fans who want seasons, irrigation, 50 crop types, crop quality, disease, 3 tiers of hoes, 3 tiers of watering cans, etc etc At any rate, I have fond memories of the various iterations of farming I got to experience and tonight I'm going to try the latest and see if it really is 100% of TFP or 99.9999% that absolutely loves the change..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannedSmeef Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Now your making the incorrect conclusion in the other direction. I never said "more complexity = better game" either, and using a contrived example doesn't validate your argument. Again, more elegance does not equate to a better game (and I'll add for clarity's sake), more complexity does not equate to a better game. Having meaningful choices for the player makes a better game. Removing meaningful choices to simplify the game is not improving it. Adding complexity without them being meaningful choices is also, not improving it. -A Well even in that case, the hoe method isn't really a meaningful choice. A meaningful choice implies that there is also a meaningful difference in those two choices, when there isn't really. If I'm going to get the same amount of food for less effort, I'm going to always take the less effort option. Why would I make a hoe and till the land when i can just make a sleek looking box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake_ Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 We will welcome a18 with open arms! Or should I say with broken arms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Two positive posts in a row... can we have a third? Do I hear a third? Going once, going twice? Finally I can plant a garden without having to place iron plates around the edges to hide all the fuglieness! At long last! (This is a genuine comment. ) Although, I am curious on what a pit in the ground filled with planter boxes to simulate a legacy garden would look like? (Perhaps this could quench the thirsts of those who are screaming over nostalgia. At least it might look similar to before, hmmm?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Old Find or craft a hoe Till soil Plant seeds Wait and quench thirst with a can of water. New Gather soil, nitrate, and rotten flesh Craft a planter box Place planter box Plant seeds Wait and quench thirst with a bottle of water. dunno...seems pretty parallel as far as complexity. I had to type more words for the new method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 I gotta go home tonight and try farming. Honestly, other than using the hoe to create the planter boxes months ago when they were first implemented...I haven't done a bit of farming since which is why I didn't know it changed. OMG.....I was neglecting the .00001% You'll thank me on your first seed planted and first harvest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 Don't ask. It's been one of those days... - - - Updated - - - The Fun Pimps are great! Sold! to Captain Obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 How much nitrate are we talking about exactly? 10? 20? 50? 100? (I'm solely asking for one reason: The Dishong Tower Challenge. If you're unaware of it, it's where you have to survive in the Dishong Tower (you can never leave) and you must survive long enough to craft a gyrocopter and leave from the rooftop. It is possible, yes. I'm just curious on the nitrate cost of the planter boxes, because if it's high, then this challenge will be an semi-unmissed but unexpected casualty. ) 25 nitrate 10 flesh, some clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 25 nitrate 10 flesh, some clay. 25 nitrate... 150 nitrate per challenge... 6... How big are these planter boxes again, sorry? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzysfang Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I honestly miss when you had to defend your garden from whatever entity might accidentally trample them. There were a lot of different threats(all the while waiting on bandits BTW) . It was engaging, I miss the wandering hordes that you could warn your friends (without a map) that it looked like they were headed your way. I honestly miss an A16 exp. bug that if you missed a server setting a zombie would follow you forever, if you did not kill it or it wasn't distracted. More and more I am the minority in the eyes of...whatever. been fun yo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 And thanks to all the other modders who put in the time and effort to make this game playable, challenging, and fun. You’re welcome. I enjoyed the bit of xpath modding I did. Be sure to let me know who you are when you com back as an alt so I can rep you. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrough Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Conventional Ralston: individual difficulties, not server-set(not sure if this is the case, actually. haven't bothered to find a good server since my buds moved on. They are gaming butterflies.) OR: dynamic/modifiable difficulty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowDog1942 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 You’re welcome. I enjoyed the bit of xpath modding I did. Be sure to let me know who you are when you com back as an alt so I can rep you. ;-) No, dont tell him who you are! He gonna BAN yo A$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecolours Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I dont know about anyone else, but I'm gonna wait and play A18 before I complain about a feature change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unholyjoe Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I dont know about anyone else, but I'm gonna wait and play A18 before I complain about a feature change. probably the biggest complaint you will have will be, "you should have made these changes several alphas back?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 More elegance = better game is honestly true in almost every case. Imagine a reality where every turn in monopoly the player has to make a calculation for 2% of what they own and pay that in tax to the bank. Sure it's more complex, but it's completely unneeded and just serves to make the game more taxing (ha) to play. What if minecraft's crafting table required rotten flesh for fuel for every craft? It's completely unnecessary and arguably makes the game much worse. It's the same reason why TFP switched to the list craft instead of the grid craft, grid craft adds absolutely nothing to the game other than just being a weird minigame that gets old after the first 3 times you make something. Also on the topic of elegant design one thing we consider when designing is that you need to consider what does this player get as a reward for his efforts? Is it a simple reward or a big game changing reward? So in this case its a rather simple reward, such as a single ear of corn. So the player has to farm clay, harvest nitrate once you find a mine, and harvest some dogs or vultures for the rotten flesh after killing them. Then craft a farm plot, place it, find a seed and plant it, and then wait 3 days to get a single ear of corn. So why make it super complicated when the reward is pretty minute? Its still arguably more work than it is worth if you think about the work involved for the small reward. Something game changing like a vehicle? Sure, lets make that fairly complex, require perks or a lot of scavenging, a bit of luck buying parts, etc. Complex crafting feels rewarding when the reward is worth it. After making the farm plots we asked all the devs, hey after playing with the new plots would you ever go back to the old way? A huge unanimous no. NOone found the old way rewarding, but tedious and not worth the time when you can go loot a corn field. For such a small reward, the gate needs to be simple, and the old design was too complicated for the reward, as well as difficult to learn for new players. We teach crafting right away, so why not invent a special mechanic for farming when it could be managed by an existing system, and improve usability in one swift stroke? I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star69 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 The problem I had with the hoe was after I hoed my garden, maybe 5 minutes time, I had no use for the hoe ever again. So used it for 5 minutes then either melted or sold every one I found thereafter. Something in a game that's only useful for 5 minutes is hard to justify. That was my issue with farming, not it being complicated or not complicated. Why waste the time on an object with so little use? I don't know about the new system, I'll have to play it first but getting rid of a pretty useless tool is good in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 What about those random farm plots in towns that might contain, say, 40 potatoes or 40 blueberries or an odd amount of corn? Are those gone in A18? Just asking, because in A17, that's how I got most of my seeds. Just saying. They don't drop seeds. Seeds are schematic craft or find only, or perk unlock the crafting recipe. It takes 5 crops to replicate one seed so its very slow getting a large farm going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Conventional Ralston!! Conventional Ralston!! Default is lower? Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 Oh my, quite the flood of tears we've had. Very theatrical. "You're killing the game's SOUL!" "Planter boxes?! You might as well start all players with instant-kill guns with infinite ammo!" And my personal favorite is the dude going full drama queen and thanking modders, one at a time. You can practically hear his voice quavering with indignation. Get a grip, already. Sheesh! I can understand the disappointment with fewer world zombies, but they're a 'meh' execution as-is, they're expensive, and the replacement solution (random encounters, sounds like) isn't ready. 7DTD is never going to have the giant hordes of zombies other games have. The tech just isn't there. So they have to come up with different gameplay. Plopping a bunch of zombies randomly in the wilderness is too inefficient for what it brings to the table. Hopefully random encounters arrive soon and are better. Amen to a stable voice on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.