Mumpfy Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 meh.... as long as they fix the grenade pin its all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 I'd like to put in my two cents here on this whole debacle about making the game "dumbed down" and how it's removing the soul. I've done quite a bit of reading on game design and I've seen a lot of different developers talk about their craft. One thing they all have in common is wanting to achieve elegance. Simply put, elegance is a feature that is not only effective, but it's also simple in design. Making things more simple is not a bad thing, and if done correctly it can actually improve a feature. Let's look at the farming system for instance. Back in earlier alphas, you needed to find/craft a hoe (you probably won't find one for a while and you need metal production to make one, which has its own steps), till dirt, loot around for some fertilizer/buy one from a trader/gather a ton of ingredients to make it yourself, upgrade it by right clicking it while having said fertilizer, and then you could finally plant your food for a nice farm. That's a lot of steps for something that is as essential as food production in a survival game. Currently in A17 the farming system is find/craft a hoe (you probably won't find one for a while and you need metal production to make one, which has its own steps), till dirt, plant the seed, and buy a couple of perks. Already this is much simpler, we just got the same result but cut out an arduous process in favor of something more intuitive. It's more immediately understood when someone tells you "oh if you want to grow food just put some points in this perk" Now in A18 the farming system is craft a plot, place it, plant it, and buy a couple of perks. This is much more elegant than where we started, now if you wanna start a farm you just type "farm plot" and it tells you exactly what you need. No guide to metal smelting, no guide to fertilizer production, just a box and some perks. Elegance and simplicity aren't the goal. The goal is to engage the player to make meaningful choices. When simplicity removes those meaningful choices, it makes the game worse. -A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 I know food isn't an issue (actually it might, maybe they changed food drop rates), I'm just saying farming is going to be an earlier thing now. Which I like, actually. I really don't get why subverting a complex process for a simpler more instant one is a problem. It's like when they changed farming in A17 to no longer need fertilizer, just a perk. It's more elegant. See we removed some complexity (hoe) and added complexity (need fertilizer). Its just a list of stuff you need instead of gated by perks to craft a hoe and all the nonsense of hoeing on a hill and your crops looked like ♥♥♥♥. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Hey guys....what's going on? Been teaching math all day at one of Madmole's no-no buildings. What's new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 I'd like to put in my two cents here on this whole debacle about making the game "dumbed down" and how it's removing the soul. I've done quite a bit of reading on game design and I've seen a lot of different developers talk about their craft. One thing they all have in common is wanting to achieve elegance. Simply put, elegance is a feature that is not only effective, but it's also simple in design. Making things more simple is not a bad thing, and if done correctly it can actually improve a feature. Let's look at the farming system for instance. Back in earlier alphas, you needed to find/craft a hoe (you probably won't find one for a while and you need metal production to make one, which has its own steps), till dirt, loot around for some fertilizer/buy one from a trader/gather a ton of ingredients to make it yourself, upgrade it by right clicking it while having said fertilizer, and then you could finally plant your food for a nice farm. That's a lot of steps for something that is as essential as food production in a survival game. Currently in A17 the farming system is find/craft a hoe (you probably won't find one for a while and you need metal production to make one, which has its own steps), till dirt, plant the seed, and buy a couple of perks. Already this is much simpler, we just got the same result but cut out an arduous process in favor of something more intuitive. It's more immediately understood when someone tells you "oh if you want to grow food just put some points in this perk" Now in A18 the farming system is craft a plot, place it, plant it, and buy a couple of perks. This is much more elegant than where we started, now if you wanna start a farm you just type "farm plot" and it tells you exactly what you need. No guide to metal smelting, no guide to fertilizer production, just a box and some perks. This guy gets it 100%. We put a lot of thought into making the most elegant designs and its kind of frustrating when people call it dumbing down the game. Its straight up intuitive now and still involved getting all the things you need to start a farm, but doesn't require smithing or perks. Perks make you better but aren't required. I had a lot of fun finding all the seed recipes and seeds to make my farm. We thought we shaved off the tedious parts that weren't very clear or easy to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Well, personally, I love the idea of planter boxes. They look so clean and semi-modern. While it's sad to see the old traditional way of farming and the garden hoe going away, we will all move on. It's like the Doctor in Doctor Who - a new Doctor comes along, everyone despises them, and then they slowly become attached to them until they are replaced by someone else. It's a never-ending cycle. Regarding this change to farming, expect some backlash, but at the end of the day, I suspect that 95% of people will prefer this way of farming to the old one. And press "e" to pick up crops again, I hear? YES PLEASE! Admittedly, I was initially confused over the removal of cans of water. I felt like it was removing an immersive part of the game, until I realized... I have never actually used a can of water. Ever. And I can't name anyone who has. So its removal is no biggie. Two positive posts in a row... can we have a third? Do I hear a third? Going once, going twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 i see how much fun you are having and it is giving me hope you are pretty entertaining to watch You cannot fake fun, least I can't. I'm glad it shows in the videos, Horde night almost wipes me out its so intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 all the nonsense of hoeing on a hill and your crops looked like ♥♥♥♥. hahahahahaha. Not intended Im sure. Still hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Elegance and simplicity aren't the goal. The goal is to engage the player to make meaningful choices. When simplicity removes those meaningful choices, it makes the game worse. -A Farming was never a meaningful choice it was a tedious exercise in frustration hoeing the uneven terrain and trying to place fertilizer sucked, wasting a point on a hoe? Come on you can dig with your hands. How was anything meaningful, other than planting that first seed? You have the same effect now gathering seeds and materials to build the farm plot. I can't wait for everyone to take back their words on this, farming rocks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzysfang Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 My point is the owners of TFP hate games so complicated you have to tab out to read a wiki to understand how to do something. It should be simple. Bananas! Thank goodness you inspired so many mods. I flat out don't think it should be simple. You're the boss applesauce...guess you got that goin' for ya'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Hey guys....what's going on? Been teaching math all day at one of Madmole's no-no buildings. What's new? You might be a bit late to the party... but maybe not lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Didn't we patch that in 17? Its not gated now at all for sure. Ok, I just checked and I was wrong. Sorry about that. I haven't played in awhile. Thanks for removing that cooking gate on boiling water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 I love it when people out themselves for breaking ToS... Here's a little moderating secret: We just want people to behave themselves. One way to do that is to make it a rule to not have an alt account but also make it still possible to create one. That way when we ban a trouble maker and they come back on as a different user they often keep a low profile and behave better because they are afraid we'll figure out it is them and then their second account will be gone. They feel like they outsmarted us BUT in actuality they are behaving better which is all we really want-- so we win too. Then there are those who just can't help but admit that they "outsmarted" us by creating a second account. I really hope Proof89 enjoys posting better as Proof90.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Farming was never a meaningful choice it was a tedious exercise in frustration hoeing the uneven terrain and trying to place fertilizer sucked, wasting a point on a hoe? Come on you can dig with your hands. How was anything meaningful, other than planting that first seed? You have the same effect now gathering seeds and materials to build the farm plot. I can't wait for everyone to take back their words on this, farming rocks now. Hang on - don't misconstrue my comment to be about the farming discussion. It's strictly regarding the statement "more elegance = better game". -A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowDog1942 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Group hugs to all, except DaVega, his hands tend to wander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 You might be a bit late to the party... but maybe not lol. I gotta go home tonight and try farming. Honestly, other than using the hoe to create the planter boxes months ago when they were first implemented...I haven't done a bit of farming since which is why I didn't know it changed. OMG.....I was neglecting the .00001% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUST2DEATH Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Group hugs to all, except DaVega, his hands tend to wander. his hands will be full.. farming rocks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Hey guys....what's going on? Been teaching math all day at one of Madmole's no-no buildings. What's new? Don't ask. It's been one of those days... - - - Updated - - - Two positive posts in a row... can we have a third? Do I hear a third? Going once, going twice? The Fun Pimps are great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 OMG.....I was neglecting the .00001% Shame on you. You know maths, and you know *exactly* how statistics are abused! -A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I hate to be this guy (I really do), but maybe lower the difficulty settings? Conventional Ralston!! Conventional Ralston!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzysfang Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Conventional Ralston!! Conventional Ralston!! Oh gosh, I hope that's not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzysfang Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Conventional Ralston!! Conventional Ralston!! Oh gosh, I hope that's not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xyth Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Here's a little moderating secret: We just want people to behave themselves. One way to do that is to make it a rule to not have an alt account but also make it still possible to create one. That way when we ban a trouble maker and they come back on as a different user they often keep a low profile and behave better because they are afraid we'll figure out it is them and then their second account will be gone. They feel like they outsmarted us BUT in actuality they are behaving better which is all we really want-- so we win too. Then there are those who just can't help but admit that they "outsmarted" us by creating a second account. I really hope Proof89 enjoys posting better as Proof90.... I would +1 this but I think that might confirm me as a troublemaker. 🙊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 They are crafted from clay, rotten flesh and a fair bit of nitrate. How much nitrate are we talking about exactly? 10? 20? 50? 100? (I'm solely asking for one reason: The Dishong Tower Challenge. If you're unaware of it, it's where you have to survive in the Dishong Tower (you can never leave) and you must survive long enough to craft a gyrocopter and leave from the rooftop. It is possible, yes. I'm just curious on the nitrate cost of the planter boxes, because if it's high, then this challenge will be an semi-unmissed but unexpected casualty. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzysfang Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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