madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Sounds like farming should be more useful and the looted food less plentiful. Or, just get rid of farming... (no, I don't want you to). But to me, its a part of the game. Keeping my fellow survivors fed, so we can stay healthy, fight more and loot more. But, if you have plenty of food without farming... there isn't much point to the entire mechanic. Not everyone wants to clear POIs from 4am to 2200 like I do. Farming is there to for the reason you say. I play SP and loot is endless, where if you are playing on a server farming becomes much more relevant because looting can be picked clean and so many more mouths to feed. I still farm a bit, I like stews and plan on improving foods to provide other benefits down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnomaana Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 You are missing the point. You join a server, and are trying to help a noob. He asks you how to craft a hoe and you would have to explain the deep process of gathering clay, stones, kill some animals and get some leather, but make sure to use a bone knife to maximize harvest, search a sink for short metal pipes, and then boil some bones and murky water in a campfire to make duct tape. Then you need to find a forge schematic or buy the first rank of engineering. Next you craft a forge and load it with iron (where do I get iron) and clay. Now that you have a hoe you need to gather fertilizer and right click the earth to make it fertile, then you need to plant a seed Or you can just craft a farm plot and place it, then plant seeds. A new player would be overwhelmed with how to start a farm and would have interupted you asking many questions like how do I find iron and clay, where do I get the stuff for fertilizer, etc. At least now you can look it up in the crafting menu and its clearly right there how to do it. The old system was part urban legend and required looking up on the internet exactly how to do it. I am sorry you were attached to the old method, but anyone can see the new system offers less confusion, smoother harvest because its nice and flat surface, and less uneeded complicated mechanics. Since when is simple the bad guy? Complex stuff is the bad guy. We want more players to enjoy the game, not have to tab out to figure out complicated systems. If you never played minecraft nobody would figure it out without a wiki. Now its pretty straight forward. Nothing is worse than struggling to learn a game. We're streamlining systems as we go gold only old players will complain, new ones will just enjoy it because they get it right away. A farm should NOT be a day 1 thing. Really, just get rid of food already. It's never going to be a complex enough system to make it fun enoght to be worth your dev time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 On difficulty Insain + Always run, I suppose =) 5 vs 10 isn't going to matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 That is the exact opposite of true. The more ways to do things the better. It is only better from a programming standpoint in that it is easier to maintain but from a gameplay standpoint? Nope. Not even close. Not when it interferes with teaching a new player. Multiple ways to solve a quest are fine, but one way to teach the player how to survive is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannedSmeef Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 A farm should NOT be a day 1 thing. Really, just get rid of food already. It's never going to be a complex enough system to make it fun enoght to be worth your dev time. Are we not allowed to start a farm immediately? Is that against gamer law? Why does food need to be complex to be fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrough Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 I mean yeah, but im just saying he has a tendency to be necessarily brash with the forum posters and that's an attitude that's kind of just reinforced the whole "emotions" thing. I agree with you though, calling a designer's game crap is uh... Real nice. Yeah I feel you. I guess it's sort of hypocritical and weird to demand something that's not mutual. Guess it's part reputation and part "who's the boss around here" that allowed me to excuse it. Also hypocritical of me to let my emotions in some AND to wade in so much deeper than I originally stated I would. - - - Updated - - - Lets go further then and just give you max level and the best gun in the game and spawn in a horde. You survive and a big "YOU WIN!!!" pops up on the screen. You die... oh who am I kidding? We can't let you die. You may rage quit. That's MUCH further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 If I can explain a farming mechanic in a single breath it has been under engineered, over simplified or dumbed down too much. If you read my short post on how to do it, its clearly over designed. I guess everyone here forgot about all the complaints about punching crops in 17. I solved that with the farm box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 You are missing the point. You join a server, and are trying to help a noob. He asks you how to craft a hoe and you would have to explain the deep process of gathering clay, stones, kill some animals and get some leather, but make sure to use a bone knife to maximize harvest, search a sink for short metal pipes, and then boil some bones and murky water in a campfire to make duct tape. Then you need to find a forge schematic or buy the first rank of engineering. Next you craft a forge and load it with iron (where do I get iron) and clay. Now that you have a hoe you need to gather fertilizer and right click the earth to make it fertile, then you need to plant a seed Or you can just craft a farm plot and place it, then plant seeds. A new player would be overwhelmed with how to start a farm and would have interupted you asking many questions like how do I find iron and clay, where do I get the stuff for fertilizer, etc. At least now you can look it up in the crafting menu and its clearly right there how to do it. The old system was part urban legend and required looking up on the internet exactly how to do it. I am sorry you were attached to the old method, but anyone can see the new system offers less confusion, smoother harvest because its nice and flat surface, and less uneeded complicated mechanics. Since when is simple the bad guy? Complex stuff is the bad guy. We want more players to enjoy the game, not have to tab out to figure out complicated systems. If you never played minecraft nobody would figure it out without a wiki. Now its pretty straight forward. Nothing is worse than struggling to learn a game. We're streamlining systems as we go gold only old players will complain, new ones will just enjoy it because they get it right away. Simple is the bad guy when there are food options for for the new guy. Your mistake is assuming that complex is the bad guy rather than what the advanced guy wants. Did my farm fail in A15 because I didn't understand farming? Yes. Did I learn how to farm after that? Yes. You don't need to make mid-game mechanics available to new players on day 1. You've basically confirmed my fear that you don't care about old players and only care about new players. But be aware of this: old players will not recommend the game to new players after you've nerfed it all to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekkan Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Are we not allowed to start a farm immediately? Is that against gamer law? Why does food need to be complex to be fun? Lets trade out the word "complex" with "in-depth" and I think we'll all be happy. I really don't think anyone is REALLY saying "make this ♥♥♥♥ so hard no one wants to do it and rage quits!". But what I think people ARE saying is "Please make farming an in-depth and useful mechanic, it is a part of the game and we'd like to see it have some love, not be relegated to %.000000001 of the game." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Sounds like a major food balance issue. If food is never scarce and not hard to get or farm then why have it in the game? It is just an annoying mouse click from time to time at that point. Until you join a server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Survager Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Nope, sorry I can't find one and I'm starving. How do I craft a hoe? A stone hoe may be the solution to your problem =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 What is happening, like seriously. The farming system itself hasn't changed, it's just the method of getting fertile blocks. An arguably much less annoying method. I still think they are confused somehow, despite me posting a video and the same people saying how awesome it was 3 months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannedSmeef Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Lets trade out the word "complex" with "in-depth" and I think we'll all be happy. I really don't think anyone is REALLY saying "make this ♥♥♥♥ so hard no one wants to do it and rage quits!". But what I think people ARE saying is "Please make farming an in-depth and useful mechanic, it is a part of the game and we'd like to see it have some love, not be relegated to %.000000001 of the game." It is a useful mechanic, it's passively generating free food. Now if you mean make it a more active endeavor than a "place and forget" thing, then maybe I could get behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slingblade2040 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 a day 1 player should look at the in game journal. if it isn't explained well enough for a noon to understand what to do then it's on the devs for not making the journal explanation simple enough for a noob to understand. look I get making stuff easy for new players but at the same time you make it sound like these new players a idiots and need things to be as simple as possible. if they can't understand farming then how will they understand mods or other not so complex stuff day 1? if new players don't want to read the journal on how to make things or find things then it's on them. don't dumb the game down just because some new players are to lazy to read a journal or you guys don't want to implement proper in game tutorials in the journal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 I do believe the point being made is despite the simplification of many systems, there is a large number of users that prefer more complexity to their game despite whatever metrics you are following. Sorry but we're going to continue removing sharp sticks as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 No its not grindy. Its amazing because you aren't skipping over huge amounts of content. You can smell the roses of every incremental growth in the gear you acquire instead of skipping over two armors and going straight to steel you find various pieces and with random stats its like oh cool this piece is a little better than my last. I must have upgraded my armor a dozen times or more, and my guns of choice many times instead of going brown, yellow, blue or pink and being done. Now there is always a better item if you keep looting and the pacing is way better. You appreciate everything a lot more now. A perk is a meaningful choice because it only happens once an hour, instead of 12 levels an hour like before. But you can specialize early and have so many options to make your player build without buying perks that its just so much better. The cans? Just clunk. Whats wrong with boiling slow in a jar vs boiling slow in a can? You can cook charred meat on a campfire so you should be able to cook basic water as well, and cans were just a sharp stick. It takes 4x longer to boil without and feels good to me, but whatever I'm only having more fun than I've ever had at this game, what the hell do I know vs some random fan I have zero doubt a18 is leaps and bounds better than a17, my concern is that it is not as good as it could be because of the removal of systems that have no value ad in removing them, but detract from the overall gameplay options... - - - Updated - - - That's great, but what the hell does vanilla have to do with what he's doing? I'm saying maybe not make fun of him for not understanding what people like... When he clearly does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake_ Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 Alpha 20 is a post gold patch Omg. Jeez H Christ TFP are running for their money on top of a farming plot on wheels with tied cans of water on the back! On a side note, I agree with the farming and can change. Duke smelting will still not be enough (I'm stating an 8 player fact) just UNTIL bandits drop bullets. Biome Zds are a nice touch, tunning them down is perfect as the random encounters get implemented in the future. This forum has turned into a MMA fight in just 2 sentences. Too much ranting for no reason. Wtf you why are you doing a great job designing and tweaking systems! Yadayada we don't want that burn them all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekkan Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 It is a useful mechanic, it's passively generating free food. Now if you mean make it a more active endeavor than a "place and forget" thing, then maybe I could get behind it. That is exactly what I'm saying, however this isn't the thread for it. But really I'd like to see all of the systems in the game be in-depth and fun. Farming is neither in-depth nor fun, but I think it could and should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 How do you get gun? Guess all players need to start with a gun now. I just banned Tazio, keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 No its not grindy. Its amazing because you aren't skipping over huge amounts of content. You can smell the roses of every incremental growth in the gear you acquire instead of skipping over two armors and going straight to steel you find various pieces and with random stats its like oh cool this piece is a little better than my last. I must have upgraded my armor a dozen times or more, and my guns of choice many times instead of going brown, yellow, blue or pink and being done. Now there is always a better item if you keep looting and the pacing is way better. You appreciate everything a lot more now. A perk is a meaningful choice because it only happens once an hour, instead of 12 levels an hour like before. But you can specialize early and have so many options to make your player build without buying perks that its just so much better. The cans? Just clunk. Whats wrong with boiling slow in a jar vs boiling slow in a can? You can cook charred meat on a campfire so you should be able to cook basic water as well, and cans were just a sharp stick. It takes 4x longer to boil without and feels good to me, but whatever I'm only having more fun than I've ever had at this game, what the hell do I know vs some random fan I just hope you got rid of that requirement for a level one perk in cooking just to boil water. That was annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 You have to gather nitrate, rotten flesh and clay to craft the box, its about the same as before. How is what you described a challenge? Farming is piss easy and always has been. Its no more dumbed than before, its just different. Finding seeds is the challenge, crafting a hoe isn't. Nope. Did you forget? You already simplified clay. It comes in dirt now. Nitrate? I'm pretty sure there are giant Borg ships sitting all over the ground that have plenty of that and point me towards the exact location of where to find more. Crafting a box? Not exactly rocket science. I can do that literally while I'm running. Not that I have a need to run anymore, the zombies are slower than me and soon there will be half of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 If you are really passionate about something and wish to encourage productive conversation and debate, I recommend trying to advocate for it without being emotional and resorting to insults. To me it looks like you're just a pissed off troll that is trying to blow off some steam and if this was my game forum, I'd just ban you for acting like a child instead of repeatedly trying to respond calmly. He's banned. I tried to explain but whatever once he started insulting that was it. I could have tested the last 3 hours but wasted time on this fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrough Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 A stone hoe may be the solution to your problem =) Adze* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted September 12, 2019 Author Share Posted September 12, 2019 Go in the crafting menu and find the recipe the same way you craft EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME. You still didn't read my post, its an over complicated venture of getting a forge, ingredients etc, then a bunch of other steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 well he is right Guppy is far more than a "random fan" and MM knows that .... was kinda uncalled for really and from a "professional developer" Um guys, as much as I appreciate the compliments, I really am just a fan like you guys. I just have a hell of a lot more free time than most people. :-) Trust me when I say I appreciate each and every single one of you passionate players who takes the time to defend there thoughts, even if they disagree with me and are wrong. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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