Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[TylerDB]

@faatal im combing through so many tears just to see what you hinted on yesterday. Don’t make my reading all this crying over lost clay be in vain! 😂

[JaxTeller718]

"Finding clay" has not been a cerebral challenge for anyone for umm... years?

It had turned into yet another appendix that probably sounded like a good idea at one time.

 

I see people loudly thinking about "bringing clay back" but I don't see anything about what gameplay loop that would be, what challenge that would pose and how it would be communicated to the player to make it a solve-able puzzle.

"Bring clay back" is not a design.

The A16 way is also not much of a design. That's why it got scrapped in the first place. We have interesting game features to tend to...

 

It isnt the singular issue of clay patches being removed. Of course on its own its a non issue of sorts, but my chief concern is when you look at the big picture in conjunction with ALL the removals and changes.

 

Now youre looking at a stripped down system. A less complicated system and a system that promotes LESS activity, even if it is opening a map and moving 30 feet.

 

Most mods, heck ALL mods are adding complicated systems and gameplay mechanics. Starvation, Walkers, Valmod, Darkness Falls, UL, name it and it adds so much. Yeah Im going to work my magic as will all of these others. That does not change the fact I love this game for the game itself. I can sit back and have the attitude of "haha its ok ill just make it better". I want to love vanilla first and foremost. It is what I fell in love with first. NOT a mod.

 

Every time more news comes out about some changes or some tweaks it just feels like another door being shut on a mechanic or a feature that didnt really need to be removed. I mean, did someone at a meeting actually sit there and say "You know what, those clay patches they really need to go to take us to the next level". Its change for the sake of simplicity. Gore Blocks gone, zombie loot all but gone, plants no longer need replanted, plains gone, gun parts and statistics on them gone, vehicle parts gone, lockpicking dropped . I mean the list of what is still in the game is getting smaller and smaller.

 

Now Roland, you say all soil is just soil. No more burnt forest ground, plains ground etc. Does this mean ALL ground looks like the foresty one now except desert and snow?

 

Why are you guys so intent on taking away the uniqueness of what you took YEARS to build. Out of spite? WHY remove plains at all? So now most ground will also have simple looks to them? Where is the variety? Why strip away the games identity to become a plain jane survival clone?

 

You guys had this on lockdown. Sky was the limit. A13 seemed like the moment someone decided it was not a survival type game anymore. Its a sandbox game. Yet someone is removing a lot of the sandbox. Sure we will have the tools to make our OWN sand, but that sandbox is only so fun to play in if the box gets smaller and the park next door is building one twice the size.

[JaxTeller718]

And Jax’s own mod is one of those! I'm sure Ravenhearst will have awesome clay mechanics.

 

I love you big man, I really do. But Clay broke me. Im dying on this hill. RH 5 will have an entire MAP of nothing but Clay. Hope you are happy.

 

Im passionate. You Are passionate. We should grab dinner

 

 

[69WithAzombie]

It isnt the singular issue of clay patches being removed. Of course on its own its a non issue of sorts, but my chief concern is when you look at the big picture in conjunction with ALL the removals and changes.

 

Now youre looking at a stripped down system. A less complicated system and a system that promotes LESS activity, even if it is opening a map and moving 30 feet.

 

Most mods, heck ALL mods are adding complicated systems and gameplay mechanics. Starvation, Walkers, Valmod, Darkness Falls, UL, name it and it adds so much. Yeah Im going to work my magic as will all of these others. That does not change the fact I love this game for the game itself. I can sit back and have the attitude of "haha its ok ill just make it better". I want to love vanilla first and foremost. It is what I fell in love with first. NOT a mod.

 

Every time more news comes out about some changes or some tweaks it just feels like another door being shut on a mechanic or a feature that didnt really need to be removed. I mean, did someone at a meeting actually sit there and say "You know what, those clay patches they really need to go to take us to the next level". Its change for the sake of simplicity. Gore Blocks gone, zombie loot all but gone, plants no longer need replanted, plains gone, gun parts and statistics on them gone, vehicle parts gone, lockpicking dropped . I mean the list of what is still in the game is getting smaller and smaller.

 

Now Roland, you say all soil is just soil. No more burnt forest ground, plains ground etc. Does this mean ALL ground looks like the foresty one now except desert and snow?

 

Why are you guys so intent on taking away the uniqueness of what you took YEARS to build. Out of spite? WHY remove plains at all? So now most ground will also have simple looks to them? Where is the variety? Why strip away the games identity to become a plain jane survival clone?

 

You guys had this on lockdown. Sky was the limit. A13 seemed like the moment someone decided it was not a survival type game anymore. Its a sandbox game. Yet someone is removing a lot of the sandbox. Sure we will have the tools to make our OWN sand, but that sandbox is only so fun to play in if the box gets smaller and the park next door is building one twice the size.

 

 

 

 

This post hit the nail right on the head for me.. I could not say it better myself..

 

 

"Gore Blocks gone, zombie loot all but gone, plants no longer need replanted, plains gone, gun parts and statistics on them gone, vehicle parts gone, lockpicking dropped . I mean the list of what is still in the game is getting smaller and smaller."

 

 

The game does feel like its losing its complexity and becoming very streamlined.

[Requiemfang]

You can get a mason jar , go in your back yard...dig a small hole down like 6 inches past the top soil...then take a few scoops out of the bottom of that hole , fill the mason jar half full . Then go fill it up with water...shake it VIGOROUSLY for a few minutes...then go set it somewhere to sit undisturbed for a day or so. Come back and look at the jar , you will see very clearly soil and clay layers formed in that jar...just about all soil contains some clay , with certain regions or areas being lower or higher clay content...As someone who has taken classes and built with Cob , you learn to do that test where ever you plan to build to see if you need to add clay to your mix , aside from sand and straw...

 

Makes complete and total sense to find clay while digging down into the earth...I wont miss coming across the super abundant clay patches in the game...was never a challenge to find it previously anyways...

 

If only it were that easy, the location where I live is mostly forest, digging down past 6 inches you don't run into soil below the top soil you run into sand or very sandy soil also the further you did the more sand you run into. I live in the northeast of the US, Maine to be specific if you want to know the location.

[Aldranon]

One wonders about the motivation behind a change like this... on it's own, not a big deal...

 

I'm thinking of making brick or flagstone walls... everywhere.

Carry at least one stack of bricks to counter dog hordes and enable interesting POI tactics.

 

*Turning lemons into lemonade since the days of Noah.*

[wolffblood]

I really wish yall would stop giving out info and stick to the keeping stuff on the dl like you keep saying you're going too. Its really annoy to see the same conversations being hashed out over and over again about every little detail you guys give out.

 

It literally goes

1 TFP: "we should probably not say anything until a17e is out so you guys can see everything at once in context so you dont freak out"

2: Forums "You cant keep info from us! We can handle it like adults and not blow everything out of proportion. We understand we know really nothing about what you guys are doing"

3 TFP: "ok guys here's a little bit of info"

4 Forums: "YOUVE RUINED THE GAME!! I CANT BELIVE YOU WOULD DO THIS WITHOUT MY PERMISSION! WHAT YOUVE DONE IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SAYING HITLER DID NOTHING WRONG! THE SKY IS LITERALLY FALLING!!!"

5: repeat from step one

 

Every. Single. Time.

 

Lol, I agree to a point there. I like the idea of devs giving updates and digging into the minds of why (just because I'm curious by nature), but I won't go so far to say the game is ruined (me personally). But yeah, I'm very big on the whole, it takes time and we don't know where they are going, but I'll go along for the ride and enjoy it. First game I've ever joined forums for, so that alone lets me know I love this game, so I'll keep playing it regardless. And yeah, I play mods now since it gives complexity, but I thank TFP because they are the ones that put these systems into place for the great modders to do what they do.

[Doombringer101]

I really wish yall would stop giving out info and stick to the keeping stuff on the dl like you keep saying you're going too. Its really annoy to see the same conversations being hashed out over and over again about every little detail you guys give out.

 

It literally goes

1 TFP: "we should probably not say anything until a17e is out so you guys can see everything at once in context so you dont freak out"

2 Forums: "You cant keep info from us! We can handle it like adults and not blow everything out of proportion. We understand we know really nothing about what you guys are doing"

3 TFP: "ok guys here's a little bit of info"

4 Forums: "YOUVE RUINED THE GAME!! I CANT BELIVE YOU WOULD DO THIS WITHOUT MY PERMISSION! WHAT YOUVE DONE IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SAYING HITLER DID NOTHING WRONG! THE SKY IS LITERALLY FALLING!!!"

5: repeat from step one

 

Every. Single. Time.

 

Agreed.

[Guppycur]

The game does feel like its losing its complexity and becoming very streamlined.

 

Optimized.

 

Anyway, yes. The magic is leaving in lieu of rust buddy consultant choices.

 

Thank devs for moddability.

[dhlmaster]

If only it were that easy, the location where I live is mostly forest, digging down past 6 inches you don't run into soil below the top soil you run into sand or very sandy soil also the further you did the more sand you run into. I live in the northeast of the US, Maine to be specific if you want to know the location.

 

I live in Maine too. I agree, there is a lot of sand. I have lived in places in this state where you couldn't grow much for grass because of the sand.

[Drithyl]

Now youre looking at a stripped down system. A less complicated system and a system that promotes LESS activity, even if it is opening a map and moving 30 feet.

 

Hard to say with the information we have. There's been some changes that feel like simplification but honestly, good gameplay should be clever, not menial, pointless, brainless mouse-clicking tasks. The replanting is an absolute non-issue, because harvesting and then retiling and then replanting doesn't bring anything to the game. You can argue that it makes you use some of your precious time, and I would reply sure, and I would not want the game to be easier now that said time is no longer wasted, but I'd prefer the difficulty come from somewhere else more interesting, not a clicking minigame.

 

Same thing applies to clay. For one, the clay patches look ugly as all hell, in my opinion. For two, as was mentioned, there was nothing interesting or complicated or challenging about finding and gathering clay.

 

This reminds me of Escape from Tarkov, an "ultra-realistic" shooter that is so obsessed with it that to load a magazine in the inventory you need to move every single bullet into the magazine with your mouse, then move the magazine into your gun. Pointless. That's not realism or an interesting mechanic.

 

As for gun parts, I wouldn't say it's simplified; it's just different. Attachments bring a wealth of new features that gun parts could not do. It's a new system of its own, not one less system.

 

Zombie loot is not gone and is unfair to add to the mix of "simplified systems". It's simply a reduction in drop rate, really, which in turn grants better performance.

 

So now most ground will also have simple looks to them? Where is the variety? Why strip away the games identity to become a plain jane survival clone?

 

I doubt it. There is no reason to believe that they removed the different appearances of soils in different biomes. They just all give clay soil, from what it sounds like.

 

You're seriously overreacting. A17 is much harder than what we have now, from what Roland has been telling us, and it is so while cutting down some of the more brainless tasks that the game had, while adding more interesting ones or making existing ones better (like food and water). To me, that sounds perfect. And no doubt there will be many modders who will add more micro tasks to the game again, this time with even more liberty thanks to all the improved framework.

[SxR]

.. Roland and Team... are you getting rid of Clay Patches for the sake of just making it easier to get Clay, and stop the massive craters that form when focused..

 

Or is this just to free up a block ID?

 

I mean if Block ID's are so tight, and your numbers so limited, sounds like you need to rebuild from the ground up.. perhaps use a different Engine maybe.

[dwallorde]

.. Roland and Team... are you getting rid of Clay Patches for the sake of just making it easier to get Clay, and stop the massive craters that form when focused..

 

Or is this just to free up a block ID?

 

I mean if Block ID's are so tight, and your numbers so limited, sounds like you need to rebuild from the ground up.. perhaps use a different Engine maybe.

 

From what I know block ids are not going to be a limiting factor anymore...hehe

[Aldranon]

If people are wondering what it could be, besides optimization...

 

What if... you still need topsoil to grow crops!

 

Trying to find living topsoil (yes, soil has life in it) might be the major blocker to growing infinite farms!

It could require various tasks or searches. Could be a lot of things.

 

**Opening presents first before complaining since Santa was a baby Elf**

[JaxTeller718]

I really wish yall would stop giving out info and stick to the keeping stuff on the dl like you keep saying you're going too. Its really annoy to see the same conversations being hashed out over and over again about every little detail you guys give out.

 

It literally goes

1 TFP: "we should probably not say anything until a17e is out so you guys can see everything at once in context so you dont freak out"

2 Forums: "You cant keep info from us! We can handle it like adults and not blow everything out of proportion. We understand we know really nothing about what you guys are doing"

3 TFP: "ok guys here's a little bit of info"

4 Forums: "YOUVE RUINED THE GAME!! I CANT BELIVE YOU WOULD DO THIS WITHOUT MY PERMISSION! WHAT YOUVE DONE IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SAYING HITLER DID NOTHING WRONG! THE SKY IS LITERALLY FALLING!!!"

5: repeat from step one

 

Every. Single. Time.

 

Maybe Discussion forums just aren't your thing?

[JaxTeller718]

From what I know block ids are not going to be a limiting factor anymore...hehe

 

We knew that months ago

[Roland]

.. Roland and Team... are you getting rid of Clay Patches for the sake of just making it easier to get Clay, and stop the massive craters that form when focused..

 

Or is this just to free up a block ID?

 

I mean if Block ID's are so tight, and your numbers so limited, sounds like you need to rebuild from the ground up.. perhaps use a different Engine maybe.

 

Already got rid of-- clay patches have been gone for a couple months now. Why specifically? I dunno. I didn't witness that meeting but I can guess that the idea originated with Madmole as he has a passion for consolidation. Perhaps what he was thinking had to do with these points:

 

The overhead maps were ugly and patchworky. They now look much more natural and visually pleasing.

Dirt had no purpose in the game as a crafting substance.

"Clay Soil" now does everything dirt used to do (it can be tilled for example) but it also does everything clay used to do.

Gameplay-wise it is mostly a non issue. It is about as easy to get clay soil now as it was to get clay before.

Now as you tunnel downward instead of getting a bunch of useless dirt you get useful clay soil.

With encumbrance now affecting a good portion of your backpack space its nice that there is no longer dirt and clay to carry around. Two stacks became one.

 

 

Block ID's are a nonissue these days. The limits of yore are no more.

[danielspoa]

did faatal talk already about the vehicle feature he mentioned yesterday?

[Doombringer101]

did faatal talk already about the vehicle feature he mentioned yesterday?

 

Nope

[Roland]

Now Roland, you say all soil is just soil. No more burnt forest ground, plains ground etc. Does this mean ALL ground looks like the foresty one now except desert and snow?

 

Nope. Ground still looks different for the different biomes.

[Roland]

did faatal talk already about the vehicle feature he mentioned yesterday?

 

He's busy working on it. Taking longer than just the one day. Just waiting for someone to come on and say he broke his promise to tell us today...

[faatal]

@faatal im combing through so many tears just to see what you hinted on yesterday. Don’t make my reading all this crying over lost clay be in vain! 😂

 

This week everyone has been doing the usual finishing and fixing.

 

What I hinted about yesterday was...

vehicle passengers is working.

My more exciting changes:

 

Fixed SDTD-8907 Zombie Screamers can see through walls (added sight to woodBlock Collide).

Added AI scout grace period (2 secs) before it will scream and can't scream when stunned.

Changed AI scout scream again delay (-2), spawn distance (80m) and spawn scout (+2%).

Added AI ApproachSpot adds a path location if a scout.

Increased path location duration to 4.

Changed wandering hordes to start and end on a line 30-45m to the side of the targeted players.

Added wandering hordes have 30% chance to skip for 12 hours if targeting a single player.

Refactored vehicle save/net data to use common code and have multiple data categories.

Refactored attachments so detach is separate and slot value is sent over network.

Fixed vehicle passengers jittered in and out of seat and had old pos, so chunks did not load.

Fixed vehicles moving to inaccurate positions for observers.

Fixed remote vehicles could enable physics and passenger camera would only work then.

Fixed SDTD-8495 Vehicles can be duped by placing and taking.

Fixed vehicle could be taken while it had a driver.

Replaced minibike horn part with vehicle hornSound property and added to all vehicles.

[Moridin624]

Awesome can't wait to cruise around and retrieve new players

[DaVegaNL]

...but is geology really a science?

 

Anyway, "more streamlining", blech.

 

Remember when Sheldon proclaimed the same thing? A few seconds later he was completely destroyed by paintballs.. just sayin'

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I thought it was the Kardashians of science

 

Oh no you didnt!

[Doombringer101]

This week everyone has been doing the usual finishing and fixing.

 

What I hinted about yesterday was...

vehicle passengers is working.

My more exciting changes:

 

Fixed SDTD-8907 Zombie Screamers can see through walls (added sight to woodBlock Collide).

Added AI scout grace period (2 secs) before it will scream and can't scream when stunned.

Changed AI scout scream again delay (-2), spawn distance (80m) and spawn scout (+2%).

Added AI ApproachSpot adds a path location if a scout.

Increased path location duration to 4.

Changed wandering hordes to start and end on a line 30-45m to the side of the targeted players.

Added wandering hordes have 30% chance to skip for 12 hours if targeting a single player.

Refactored vehicle save/net data to use common code and have multiple data categories.

Refactored attachments so detach is separate and slot value is sent over network.

Fixed vehicle passengers jittered in and out of seat and had old pos, so chunks did not load.

Fixed vehicles moving to inaccurate positions for observers.

Fixed remote vehicles could enable physics and passenger camera would only work then.

Fixed SDTD-8495 Vehicles can be duped by placing and taking.

Fixed vehicle could be taken while it had a driver.

Replaced minibike horn part with vehicle hornSound property and added to all vehicles.

 

Nice work on getting the passenger issues fixed

So when you say screamers can see through walls, was that all blocks including terrain?

Did you consider making it a feature?