What was the point of the water change?

[unholyjoe]

42 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Everyone knows TFP is already working on the sequal. Good luck selling that with that attitude.

actually they are not working on the sequel.

they do have artists, level designers and so forth working on the next game but its not 7dtd2.

Edited June 14, 2023 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[v3tro]

Love the water change, food/water is finally part of the game.

 What`s the reason to complain? What changed so much that people can`t adapt and need to make a fuss about it?

Before you could make unlimited amount of jars in forge and fill them up instantly.. boiling time was like 10s. You are set for next 100hour game in less than 10min, it was broken. Now food/water is relevant. Great change. 

Same as magazines.. best change ever, beats learn by doing and that terrible perk to unlock recipes by miles. 

 

[Vaeliorin]

4 hours ago, madmole said:

2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it.

Yes, heaven forbid I be able to make and use the iron tools I sunk 19 skill points into.  I could make quality 5 iron tools on Day 3, but only had enough duct tape to make an iron pickaxe until Day 8.

 

Fortunately I found a few repair kits so I could actually use the iron pickaxe and my wrench.

[Scyris]

3 hours ago, Riamus said:

And yet if you wait a month until people get used to the change, few people will care that there aren't glass jars anymore.  They won't even notice unless someone points it out and then they'll remember and realize they weren't needed after all.  I don't even notice the lack except when I realize I don't have time of then floating around in chests and am happy about that.

 

*Maybe 2 months as a month from now more people will just get their first look at it when A21 goes to stable.  Those that are using it now will likely not mind the change in a month, though.

 

I already don't care about the jars missing. Just build enough dew collectors and your fine. I usually loot mine after coming home from a loot run before I store stuff away. I have 4-5 of them up in a single player game by day 4-5. I mean, its not like traders sell much of value anymore they got completly gutted if you don't got daring adventurer. In fact my last game the literal only thing I bought off a trader was water filters, as they didn't offer anything else worth buying.

1 hour ago, v3tro said:

Love the water change, food/water is finally part of the game.

 What`s the reason to complain? What changed so much that people can`t adapt and need to make a fuss about it?

Before you could make unlimited amount of jars in forge and fill them up instantly.. boiling time was like 10s. You are set for next 100hour game in less than 10min, it was broken. Now food/water is relevant. Great change. 

Same as magazines.. best change ever, beats learn by doing and that terrible perk to unlock recipes by miles. 

 

 

I'd still argue food is a non-issue thou. Least I've not had any problems finding enough in loot to keep my char above 50%. Water on the otherhand is pretty tight. Even with 4-5 dew collectors, I still have to make a choice of making duct tape, or drinking it, or making food with it. I've been making due with quest reward duct tape, or buying it so I don't need to use my precious water, something I never had to do before, as I could just make 125 jars and be set for a week+.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Scyris (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

4 hours ago, madmole said:

Vocal minority like usual. Some people hate changes, but will come back later and say it was a good change and they were knee jerking. Water is supposed to be a rare commodity in an apocalypse, not all you can drink buffet on day 1.

 This has to be the most condescending post I have seen so far.  This is also the most ill-informed post I have seen so far, and this is from the staff? With this view, it goes a long way to explain the state of the game.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[AtomicUs5000]

10 minutes ago, Greymantle said:

 This has to be the most condescending post I have seen so far.  This is also the most ill-informed post I have seen so far, and this is from the staff? With this view, it goes a long way to explain the state of the game.

He says the same thing every time. You could call it a knee-jerk reaction to knee-jerk reactions... but he's right. That really does happen.
He fails to mention that every once in a while, though, there is a complaint about something and after further review it gets changed again.
Another thing that happens quite often is that when it seems like players warm up to some change, it is often after other related things are tweaked and suddenly the change makes sense.

Edited June 15, 2023 by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

5 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

He says the same thing every time. You could call it a knee-jerk reaction to knee-jerk reactions... but he's right. That really does happen.
He fails to mention that every once in a while, though, there is a complaint about something and after further review it gets changed again.
Another thing that happens quite often is that when it seems like players warm up to some change, it is often after other related things are tweaked and suddenly the change makes sense.

 

I agree that it happens, but this time it's different because of the game-play loop change. It's a huge change to how the game is played. That is what shocks me that they are that ill-informed on what is going on right now and blow it off as it's just the same as every other time.

[AtomicUs5000]

17 minutes ago, Greymantle said:

 

I agree that it happens, but this time it's different because of the game-play loop change. It's a huge change to how the game is played. That is what shocks me that they are that ill-informed on what is going on right now and blow it off as it's just the same as every other time.

Not really different. There have been times where entire systems have changed.
I don't know why they do that. Perhaps it's to present tough guy personas or perhaps it's some weird attempt to soften the complaints... but I'm pretty sure they have all the information and know exactly what's going on. 

[Kosmic Kerman]

3 hours ago, Greymantle said:

 

I agree that it happens, but this time it's different because of the game-play loop change. It's a huge change to how the game is played. That is what shocks me that they are that ill-informed on what is going on right now and blow it off as it's just the same as every other time.

Except it’s really not. You just haven’t been around long enough to know that. There have been major game mechanic changes before and the forums were full of doom and gloom. Some things to consider: 1) the update just came out and no one has spent enough time with it to truly offer measured criticism and 2) the criticism has largely been reactionary and low quality.  TFP will tweak the systems but they aren’t going to roll them back. So there’s little point engaging with people still in the denial and anger phases of grief. 

[Ramethzer0]

Since I'm already sick to death for the negativity being spread on the forums regarding just about everything:

 

I gotta say I am really happy that I finally have a use for the water purification mod that can be installed in helmet.

Kiiiinda useful now.

[Euzio]

3 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Since I'm already sick to death for the negativity being spread on the forums regarding just about everything:

 

I gotta say I am really happy that I finally have a use for the water purification mod that can be installed in helmet.

Kiiiinda useful now.

I second this. The water purification mod is actually extremely useful now. You can dedicate the water collected from the Dew Collectors into making teas, coffee, glue etc. 

I'm still on the fence on whether the change to remove water jars was essentially beneficial. If anything, it makes the early game slightly tougher and the late game slightly more inconvenient? 

[OgreSlayeR]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I was tired of tossing out empty jars and empty food cans after eating and drinking to save inventory space and I'm glad I don't have to now. Definitely a good byproduct of the water change.

 

I think it's just human nature that most people hate change. It would be interesting to see if this change had always existed in the game if people would be really care as much.

 

I do think they should go further with the changes though. It would be nice to see rain affecting the Dew Collectors (maybe a mod to increase the storage capacity?) Also what if we could carry a craftable/buyable water flask that we could fill instead of just using the jars (could maybe be different ones of various sizes to hold different amounts)? Maybe drag and drop whatever liquid we want in them water, red tea etc.

Edited June 15, 2023 by OgreSlayeR (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, OgreSlayeR said:

Don't know about the rest of you, but I was tired of tossing out empty jars and empty food cans after eating and drinking to save inventory space and I'm glad I don't have to now. Definitely a good byproduct of the water change.

In my case it is the opposite. I have kept cans and jars for oil and glue production.

 

1 hour ago, OgreSlayeR said:

I think it's just human nature that most people hate change. It would be interesting to see if this change had always existed in the game if people would be really care as much.

Surely not. I think not many people are bothered by the fact that you do not need water nearby for the plants to grow, but that was different in an earlier alpha and it would be more realistic.

 

Also, not all changes affect everyone equally. In an agility play-through, I was using exploding crossbow bolts for horde night. I was using up to 100 pieces of duct tape a week just for that. On the other hand, someone using a machine gun, for example, does not need duct tape to make ammunition.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

6 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Except it’s really not. You just haven’t been around long enough to know that. There have been major game mechanic changes before and the forums were full of doom and gloom. Some things to consider: 1) the update just came out and no one has spent enough time with it to truly offer measured criticism and 2) the criticism has largely been reactionary and low quality.  TFP will tweak the systems but they aren’t going to roll them back. So there’s little point engaging with people still in the denial and anger phases of grief. 

 I have been around since version 9 and this is the first time the game-play loop has changed to the point it affects me. I don't use traders, so nothing done to them has ever effected me. What game-play loop has changed in the past? I don't recall ever-changing my game-play for any version like this one. I've always played the same. I loot everything in site and don't do traders. This way to play has never changed, so not sure what you are talking about.

1 hour ago, OgreSlayeR said:

Don't know about the rest of you, but I was tired of tossing out empty jars and empty food cans after eating and drinking to save inventory space and I'm glad I don't have to now. Definitely a good byproduct of the water change.

 

I think it's just human nature that most people hate change. It would be interesting to see if this change had always existed in the game if people would be really care as much.

 

I do think they should go further with the changes though. It would be nice to see rain affecting the Dew Collectors (maybe a mod to increase the storage capacity?) Also what if we could carry a craftable/buyable water flask that we could fill instead of just using the jars (could maybe be different ones of various sizes to hold different amounts)? Maybe drag and drop whatever liquid we want in them water, red tea etc.

 

They changed from throwing out bottles and cans to books and magazines. The only difference is you read them or save them for friends instead of tossing them out.

[AtomicUs5000]

3 hours ago, Greymantle said:

 I have been around since version 9 and this is the first time the game-play loop has changed to the point it affects me. I don't use traders, so nothing done to them has ever effected me. What game-play loop has changed in the past? I don't recall ever-changing my game-play for any version like this one. I've always played the same. I loot everything in site and don't do traders. This way to play has never changed, so not sure what you are talking about.

 

They changed from throwing out bottles and cans to books and magazines. The only difference is you read them or save them for friends instead of tossing them out.

 

I would say going from A16 to 17 was a huge change in game play loops for many people. Some people had to completely change where they normally set up their base. The skill system was completely different with LBD removed. Anybody who used to do the sea of spikes strategy had to start doing something else. For those chasing efficiency, the trader started becoming a necessity.

What is the game play loop exactly that you have had to change? Most people have said that they simply focus on building some dew collectors the first week or two and then it's back to the norm.
 

I hated the never-ending supply of jars, so I am glad to see that go away, but they could have made them more useful instead.

Perhaps break them up and use the glass for junk turret ammo.
 

[gothguy666]

When you consume a beverage which used to give you an empty glass jar: it no longer occurrs, There are no jars (or tin cans) but specifically the Glass Jar situation (lack of) is a bit tiresome as there is no other way to get water early game, apart from search buildings pretty much all the time.
This has pretty much killed the game for me in some respects, as running on 40/100+ water  really does make the game a lot tougher, if not nearly imposssible.
It is actually easier to die via Zombie, respawn and get your bag than find water when you become dehydrated.

There is a way to make a dew collector, but it needs a filter. After playing about 6 hours. No filter found. 

Otherwise, there are a few changes like the pot on the fire for example, and the shading behind bocks depending on what they are made out of.
 

[meganoth]

[I moved this topic out of the console section. Please check where you are posting]

 

Don't try to find a filter in loot, it is a very rare find. Save up 1500 Dukes and buy it from the trader.

 

[ElCabong]

You need to adjust your gameplay to work around the water situation. The first day looted two bottled waters and did one trader quest. Bought two yellow tea, forget what it's called. I managed to loot enough food so I didn't go hungry by beaking in the back doors of residences and looted kitchens until it got dark.

 

The next day I was able to make a forge and looted a cooking pot so I was over the hump as far as water goes for that day. The next day, I'm low on water and need to break into more kitchens

[boban]

Yea, after adjusting to new way of playing water isn't a problem at all. But as you said you have to loot. Or do quests (and loot while doing them and/or buy your water). I think having 'industrial farm' of ducktape might not be possible anymore for later gamestages, but that's intended consequence/change according to madmole.

[Vaeliorin]

Just build a dozen or so dew collectors (which is really simple), and you'll have all the water you want.  I'm on day 11 and have 55 water sitting in chests, and 20 Pure Mineral Water in my inventory.  I've only got 5 Dew Collectors, and water is no longer an issue for me.  Getting parts seems to be my biggest problem now.  Tons of steel spear parts (which is fine, I'm running spears) but only 2 steel tool parts.

[jerseyetr]

If you ask me the biggest blunder of this whole water jar thing is that TFP wants the game to be more immersive, but water jars disappearing after using them isn't very immersive or real feeling to me.

 

Also, setting up a dew collector, then having it randomly produce jars for the water is immersion breaking and just weird.

 

 

IIRC they did this before, although I think it was an accident years ago in which after drinking water you got no jar back. I remember my server and many others just modding it back into the game. I imagine lots are doing that again right now.

 

 

 

If you ask me, they need to make something else to replace the water jar. Maybe a canteen you can craft that you have to fill at the dew collector as the collector would have its own water tank storage, then once collected into the canteen, you can carry it around with you, but that effectively have you carrying one single water jar around and we all know one jar of water isn't enough. 

 

Say im out on a long run away from base, I expect 3 days away from base. What do I do? Id need multiple water jars since a single canteen doesn't work. So obviously the water jars concept needs to stay, or at least some sort of way to carry multiples. Maybe having to craft multiple canteens? Just seems some kinks need working out.

Edited June 15, 2023 by jerseyetr (see edit history)

[canadianbluebeer]

I do have to decide what to use the water for.

Glue? How much do I NEED today?

Drinks?  How much do I NEED today?

Food?  How much can I make today?   (not many)

 

Now finding glue/duct tape is much more rewarding in that "one less water to use"  

 

Mind you, finding that book to make pure mineral water is gonna be a priority.

60 hydrate vs 24.  much better.

Want that as early as possible.  (RNG is RNG)

 

I'm actually starting to like this way for solo.  Dunno how it's gonna go for MP tho.

(a lot more buying drinks methinks)  

 

[rateds2k]

Love the change, the only thing is why a dew collector? Could have just been a type of filtration system to filter murky water. Make it super slow and that would have slowed the water buildup.

[BFT2020]

33 minutes ago, jerseyetr said:

If you ask me the biggest blunder of this whole water jar thing is that TFP wants the game to be more immersive, but water jars disappearing after using them isn't very immersive or real feeling to me.

It wasn't being driven to be immersive, it was driven because gathering water was basically too simple / too easy.  Water became a non-issue really.

 

There is still some balancing work needed to be done (especially around SP which may require players to mod), but the intent is to make the player choose how they are going to use their limited water supplies.

[Greymantle]

2 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 

I would say going from A16 to 17 was a huge change in game play loops for many people. Some people had to completely change where they normally set up their base. The skill system was completely different with LBD removed. Anybody who used to do the sea of spikes strategy had to start doing something else. For those chasing efficiency, the trader started becoming a necessity.

What is the game play loop exactly that you have had to change? Most people have said that they simply focus on building some dew collectors the first week or two and then it's back to the norm.
 

I hated the never-ending supply of jars, so I am glad to see that go away, but they could have made them more useful instead.

Perhaps break them up and use the glass for junk turret ammo.
 

The only thing I remember about 17 was I liked the gates only for the reason to slow the game down a bit. Didn't they ditch the system in 18? The last what 5 versions, they have been all over the place. I really have no idea where they're going next. To tell you the truth at this point I would prefer TFP sell the game. Maybe we could get some devs that will have more focus and finish this game.