What was the point of the water change?

[hotpoon]

Removing jars is an unnecessary simplification, just like removing gun parts was.

Just another thing modders will have to fix.

[Apocalipservice]

On 6/14/2023 at 11:27 AM, Exxodous said:

Because it's a survival game maybe?

Oh, the logic... So you're saying that all survival games don't use water containers? Wow, I rlly didn't know that - no idea that dew collectors and disappearing containers were standard for survival games. Thanks for that protip. 😆 JFC Srsly, this one didn't have one until now. *shrug*   Note that it's  a hybrid game, not a full survival game but it's mostly supposed to be about fighting zombies and not be a drought simulator ffs. Being a survival game also doesn't equate to making a sudden and drastic change in how folks have been getting water and that change making all the pretty lakes and rivers more useless than they were. That's calleds dev not having a clear idea  I think they're fantastic scenery but we can't fish, can't boat, and now zeds can spawn there. There's water everywhere but we have to set up big blue water farms if we want the teas, food, glue etc midgame (multiplayer anyway which is what I mostly play) - yeah there'll be enough water but besides the unwanted water farm the change seems very poorly thought out. That's why we have mods though. 😃

[Apocalipservice]

19 hours ago, Greymantle said:

 This has to be the most condescending post I have seen so far.  This is also the most ill-informed post I have seen so far, and this is from the staff? With this view, it goes a long way to explain the state of the game.

Well, the game is kinda like his "kid" and I'd really expect him to defend their game/business decisions. Still, I doubt that *anyone* can say if there's a minority or majority opinion about the recent changes because it hasn't been measured. A lot of folks (esp kids) just equate their opinion w/ the majority opinion but I don't think we'll get a sense of how folks feel for awhile - or maybe ever. There were a lot of streamers w/ a LOT followers i.e. potentially many more people that are aware much less use this forum or Steam's, etc who thought these changes were bad months ago. That actually got to be a bit much, like way too negative past a certain point. I've come to think of Rick and Joel and the ultimate backseat gamers i.e. they want us to play their way? I've folks known folks like that, lol. At the same time I **really** appreciate how TFP works w/ the modding community so that if we don't like the vanilla base game we can play a different version. Darkness Falls seems to be a haven for folks who preferred 16 and there are so many other great overhauls. 

[Blasphemous]

For hydration, yucca smoothie is the new water and it grows from seeds and assembles itself at a workbench.

[Exxodous]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:59 PM, Greymantle said:

I will give you that they succeeded all right. The problem is what you seem to see as success, I see as a lot of unhappy people.

And I see a lot of people enjoying it....In previous Alphas water was something I considered once or twice a playthrough, and it was simple.  Loot 5 or 6 houses, take the 50 empty jars you got out of cabinets to a puddle and boil..... BORING.  Now, it's something I have to think about pretty much daily.  I wouldn't classify it as particularly challenging because I haven't died from lack of water or anything but at least it's entertaining.

2 hours ago, Apocalipservice said:

Oh, the logic... So you're saying that all survival games don't use water containers? Wow, I rlly didn't know that - no idea that dew collectors and disappearing containers were standard for survival games. Thanks for that protip. 😆 JFC Srsly, this one didn't have one until now. *shrug*   Note that it's  a hybrid game, not a full survival game but it's mostly supposed to be about fighting zombies and not be a drought simulator ffs. Being a survival game also doesn't equate to making a sudden and drastic change in how folks have been getting water and that change making all the pretty lakes and rivers more useless than they were. That's calleds dev not having a clear idea  I think they're fantastic scenery but we can't fish, can't boat, and now zeds can spawn there. There's water everywhere but we have to set up big blue water farms if we want the teas, food, glue etc midgame (multiplayer anyway which is what I mostly play) - yeah there'll be enough water but besides the unwanted water farm the change seems very poorly thought out. That's why we have mods though. 😃

You don't need to wait for modders to fix this for you.  Simply edit the XML to put more murky water in cabinets.  It's probably only changing one number in the loot tables.  Or CM some in magically.  Either way "poof" the problem is gone and the rest of us can enjoy the changes.

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Exxodous said:

And I see a lot of people enjoying it....In previous Alphas water was something I considered once or twice a playthrough, and it was simple.  Loot 5 or 6 houses, take the 50 empty jars you got out of cabinets to a puddle and boil..... BORING.  Now, it's something I have to think about pretty much daily.  I wouldn't classify it as particularly challenging because I haven't died from lack of water or anything but at least it's entertaining.

Looting your dew collectors (basically, just more busy work) every day is entertaining?

 

I don't hate the change or anything, but it just seems almost entirely pointless to me.  Yeah, day 1-3 maybe were a bit annoying on the water front, but after that it was completely trivial (honestly, easier because I didn't have to track down a water source on the map to find water, which I've occasionally had trouble with in past alphas.)

[jerseyetr]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

It wasn't being driven to be immersive, it was driven because gathering water was basically too simple / too easy.  Water became a non-issue really.

 

There is still some balancing work needed to be done (especially around SP which may require players to mod), but the intent is to make the player choose how they are going to use their limited water supplies.

 

 

I did not mean that was the driving factor. There is actually a post here from MM in which he states what you just said.

 

What I mean by the immersion bit was that TFP has made an attempt to make the game more immersive in other aspects, but this one is a step back in the sense of immersion. Sorry for the confusion.

[Riamus]

It was really just to make things standard for everything.  Everything else didn't have a container left over.  Now, nothing does.  I prefer this regardless of immersion.

[Survior]

10 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Just build a dozen or so dew collectors (which is really simple), and you'll have all the water you want.  I'm on day 11 and have 55 water sitting in chests, and 20 Pure Mineral Water in my inventory.  I've only got 5 Dew Collectors, and water is no longer an issue for me.  Getting parts seems to be my biggest problem now.  Tons of steel spear parts (which is fine, I'm running spears) but only 2 steel tool parts.

This is why this new mechanic is a huge joke and waste of time and effort. An efficient player will eventually overcome the artificial boundries of "mere survival" and establish a stash big enough to make as much glue as they want. The whole removal of jars thing was a big waste of time and effort with zero added and a lot of better game play removed.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Survior (see edit history)

[Survior]

OP,  the answer, "OMG WE MUST STOP PLAYERS FROM MAKING GLUE!"

 

Of course they haven't done that, they just made a really bad mechanic to kill the old decent mechanic.

 

[Riamus]

There was no need for jars or cans.  Just wasted space.  They could just as easily had the old water method without them and no one would have cared.  Glad they are gone.

 

[Vaeliorin]

2 hours ago, Survior said:

This is why this new mechanic is a huge joke and waste of time and effort. An efficient player will eventually overcome the artificial boundries of "mere survival" and establish a stash big enough to make as much glue as they want. The whole removal of jars thing was a big waste of time and effort with zero added and a lot of better game play removed.

Yep, I agree (though not so much about the better gameplay removed part.  Water was trivial before and it's trivial now.)  It's part of why I said in another thread that I expected them to either make water filters random (rare) loot only or increase the cost.  And they did increase the cost, though not as much as I feared (I was expecting them to at least double it if not more, but they only increased it by 50%.)

[Lasher]

2 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Yep, I agree (though not so much about the better gameplay removed part.  Water was trivial before and it's trivial now.)  It's part of why I said in another thread that I expected them to either make water filters random (rare) loot only or increase the cost.  And they did increase the cost, though not as much as I feared (I was expecting them to at least double it if not more, but they only increased it by 50%.)

This.

Still trivial - just more fiddly.

Pointless.

[Blasphemous]

I think this new water might affect more than land, look at this crawler:

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Blasphemous (see edit history)

[meganoth]

22 hours ago, jerseyetr said:

If you ask me the biggest blunder of this whole water jar thing is that TFP wants the game to be more immersive, but water jars disappearing after using them isn't very immersive or real feeling to me.

 

Also, setting up a dew collector, then having it randomly produce jars for the water is immersion breaking and just weird.

 

Two posts I have never read in the forum:

 

"gas cans disappearing after using them isn't very immersive or real feeling to me"

 

"setting up a workbench, then having it produce stuff without anyone operating it is immersion breaking and just weird"

 

What I am saying is that the invisible jars and the dew collector seem only strange because they are new. The game already had lots of invisible containers (for gasoline, acid, oil, ...) and machinery operating without operator and electricity.

 

 

22 hours ago, jerseyetr said:

 

IIRC they did this before, although I think it was an accident years ago in which after drinking water you got no jar back. I remember my server and many others just modding it back into the game. I imagine lots are doing that again right now.

 

If you ask me, they need to make something else to replace the water jar. Maybe a canteen you can craft that you have to fill at the dew collector as the collector would have its own water tank storage, then once collected into the canteen, you can carry it around with you, but that effectively have you carrying one single water jar around and we all know one jar of water isn't enough. 

 

Say im out on a long run away from base, I expect 3 days away from base. What do I do? Id need multiple water jars since a single canteen doesn't work. So obviously the water jars concept needs to stay, or at least some sort of way to carry multiples. Maybe having to craft multiple canteens? Just seems some kinks need working out.

 

There may be some misunderstanding here: Water stacks up to 10 (like it did for a long time). So simply take a stack of 10 water with you when you go out 3 days. Better yet, make tea and take a stack of that with you

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Yep, I agree (though not so much about the better gameplay removed part.  Water was trivial before and it's trivial now.)  It's part of why I said in another thread that I expected them to either make water filters random (rare) loot only or increase the cost.  And they did increase the cost, though not as much as I feared (I was expecting them to at least double it if not more, but they only increased it by 50%.)

 

It may be trivial to a veteran player but it isn't something you can just ignore. My group is at day 5 and we have enough to drink finally but not enough for our glue demand yet. And before that I was running around at 25% water and seriously avoiding combat because my stamina regen was low and we didn't find enough water in the POIs for the 4 of us. Then I bought a vitamin and filled myself up at a pond.

 

And frankly that is all what TFP tried to accomplish. A problem to overcome in the first days and a solved problem afterwards. Getting enough to eat, getting a wrench, a beaker and a crucible are other built-in mini-quests you solve eventually. 

 

And I expect many new players to have a lot of problems with water and food at the start of the game.

 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse]

They need to introduce some sort of container you can fill up when at a water source on the map and bring water back to a fire so you can boil it.  That seems like an intuitive mechanic to me. Maybe some sort of bottle? Or a jar!

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, Apocalipservice said:

Oh, the logic... So you're saying that all survival games don't use water containers?

 

He might be saying that all survival games try to make the resources scarce (at least the ones that are in the game). And according to MM that was one of the reasons for this change.

 

20 hours ago, Apocalipservice said:

 

Wow, I rlly didn't know that - no idea that dew collectors and disappearing containers were standard for survival games. Thanks for that protip. 😆 JFC Srsly, this one didn't have one until now. *shrug*   Note that it's  a hybrid game, not a full survival game but it's mostly supposed to be about fighting zombies and not be a drought simulator ffs.

 

So water scarcity for the first 5 days is full survival game and drought simulator for you? To me it still feels like survival light. Even some of the critics have complained, I quote, "it is trivial"

 

20 hours ago, Apocalipservice said:

Being a survival game also doesn't equate to making a sudden and drastic change in how folks have been getting water and that change making all the pretty lakes and rivers more useless than they were. That's calleds dev not having a clear idea  I think they're fantastic scenery but we can't fish, can't boat, and now zeds can spawn there. There's water everywhere but we have to set up big blue water farms if we want the teas, food, glue etc midgame (multiplayer anyway which is what I mostly play) - yeah there'll be enough water but besides the unwanted water farm the change seems very poorly thought out. That's why we have mods though. 😃

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

It may be trivial to a veteran player but it isn't something you can just ignore. My group is at day 5 and we have enough to drink finally but not enough for our glue demand yet. And before that I was running around at 25% water and seriously avoiding combat because my stamina regen was low and we didn't find enough water in the POIs for the 4 of us. Then I bought a vitamin and filled myself up at a pond.

 

And frankly that is all what TFP tried to accomplish. A problem to overcome in the first days and a solved problem afterwards. Getting enough to eat, getting a wrench, a beaker and a crucible are other built-in mini-quests you solve eventually. 

 

And I expect many new players to have a lot of problems with water and food at the start of the game.

 

I had 3 dew collectors set up on day 2 in my restart for b317.  Sure, I've got almost 2k hours, but once you know about the need for dew collectors and how to build them, it's trivial, and I don't see why it wouldn't be for a new player as well (though I suppose they may not know where to acquire the materials.)

 

I don't mind them, my biggest complaint is that I can't pipe them together to grab all the water from one source.  Having to loot a bunch of dew collectors every day post week 1 just seems like annoying tedium.

[meganoth]

24 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

I had 3 dew collectors set up on day 2 in my restart for b317.  Sure, I've got almost 2k hours, but once you know about the need for dew collectors and how to build them, it's trivial, and I don't see why it wouldn't be for a new player as well (though I suppose they may not know where to acquire the materials.)

 

You could ask a new player (lots of them turn up in the forum and some say they are). Just ask him how much money he had on day 2. You would be surprised.

 

24 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

 

I don't mind them, my biggest complaint is that I can't pipe them together to grab all the water from one source.  Having to loot a bunch of dew collectors every day post week 1 just seems like annoying tedium.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

Frankly, I don't miss jars and cans at all.

Managing dew collector tedium vs managing jar crafting, inventory, and water gathering tedium.   I don't find one tedium better than the other tedium.

[Apocalipservice]

58 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

He might be saying that all survival games try to make the resources scarce (at least the ones that are in the game). And according to MM that was one of the reasons for this change.

 

 

So water scarcity for the first 5 days is full survival game and drought simulator for you? To me it still feels like survival light. Even some of the critics have complained, I quote, "it is trivial"

 

 

 

Aw, I was being snarky, lol, an I noted that survival was only one aspect of this hybrid game.  OK, I hear you about us easily able to get the water situation under control quickly - I have 14 murkies boiling on day 2 because of of bars and cafes. Overall it is actually a drought...ish environment - y'know w/ no potable water falling from the sky or in any of the big beautiful lakes? It's really about the lakes and rivers being wasted as well as the possible hassle *mid-game* when we're crafting and cooking a lot. Also, we all have our opinions about game changes and this time around I think it's a ridiculous one. *shrug* That's why we have so many mod overhauls and I appreciate how much the devs work w/ modders - love it when they hire 'em.  I love having bases near a lake but there (personally) seems less reason to do so now. Ah well, loving so much else of the update - cannot believe the POIs I came across in the wilderness. Just gorgeous and the zeds seem tougher. S thhe water thing isn't so much a turd in the punchbowl as...mm a dog's chew toy? Could be worse. 😃

 

[meganoth]

13 minutes ago, Apocalipservice said:

Aw, I was being snarky, lol, an I noted that survival was only one aspect of this hybrid game.  OK, I hear you about us easily able to get the water situation under control quickly - I have 14 murkies boiling on day 2 because of of bars and cafes. Overall it is actually a drought...ish environment - y'know w/ no potable water falling from the sky or in any of the big beautiful lakes? It's really about the lakes and rivers being wasted as well as the possible hassle *mid-game* when we're crafting and cooking a lot. Also, we all have our opinions about game changes and this time around I think it's a ridiculous one. *shrug* That's why we have so many mod overhauls and I appreciate how much the devs work w/ modders - love it when they hire 'em.  I love having bases near a lake but there (personally) seems less reason to do so now. Ah well, loving so much else of the update - cannot believe the POIs I came across in the wilderness. Just gorgeous and the zeds seem tougher. S thhe water thing isn't so much a turd in the punchbowl as...mm a dog's chew toy? Could be worse. 😃

 

 

In A15/A16 when there were really big lakes I "liked" them for their map-dividing characteristic or for them providing "structure" to the map. You might see a city on the other side of the lake, but getting there was often not that easy.

But I never needed them specifically for the water, especially after lots and lots of POIs with swimming pools and small ponds were added. But everyone has a different view about this. I'm just saying a need for them as water source was even in earlier alphas entirely in the eye of the beholder.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:34 PM, madmole said:

Vocal minority like usual. Some people hate changes, but will come back later and say it was a good change and they were knee jerking. Water is supposed to be a rare commodity in an apocalypse, not all you can drink buffet on day 1.

 

I just don´t get why the food was made easier at the same time. Like way easier. Now water is a problem early game (at least in MP, in SP it´s still a all you can drink buffet) but there is more food than ever. Lots of vegetables and seeds in the loot and a new "free meat" POI, the Hogzilla ranch. I am on day 10 and i have 1300  meat and a good amount of corn, potatoes and mushrooms without having a single farmplot, also many seeds to start a farm now. Default settings on warrior.

 

I do appreciate a harder survival, something had to be done about water AND food. But the way it is done is weird af. In MP we need to make a football field full of dew collectors to keep up with the water while we are surrounded by water sources, wich are good enough quality of water to craft with it. That just feels so wrong and artifical. But we can eat all day long simply for the stamina bonus even when not hungry.

 

Why was food buffed? That´s such a weird logic. I can understand nerfing water and keeping food the same and balancing it later in development, but buffing it is so weird.

Edited June 16, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

15 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

I just don´t get why the food was made easier at the same time. Like way easier. Now water is a problem early game (at least in MP, in SP it´s still a all you can drink buffet) but there is more food than ever. Lots of vegetables and seeds in the loot and a new "free meat" POI, the Hogzilla ranch. I am on day 10 and i have 1300  meat and a good amount of corn, potatoes and mushrooms without having a single farmplot, also many seeds to start a farm now. Default settings on warrior.

 

I do appreciate a harder survival, something had to be done about water AND food. But the way it is done is weird af. In MP we need to make a football field full of dew collectors to keep up with the water while we are surrounded by water sources, wich are good enough quality of water to craft with it.

 

Huh?

 

15 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

 

 

That just feels so wrong. But we can eat all day long simply for the stamina bonus even when not hungry.

 

Why was food buffed? That´s such a weird logic. I can understand nerfing water and keeping food the same, but this is so weird.