What was the point of the water change?

[Razorpony]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

The jars are now more consistent with how every single other consumable container is treated.

 

 

I would say this is true IF there were lakes and rivers of unaccessible gasoline and acid in the world but there are not. Shale can, in fact be brought back to your base for processing. Acid has always been loot only. The problem isn't mysterious jars it's internal logistical consistency. So far the only reasoning is "because we needed to make water arbitrarily harder." 

 

I guess there are people out there who find the hydration gameplay loop fun. Not me, but people. Somewhere. Out there. *waves hand* 

[Vaeliorin]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

I've found two filter mods for the helmet during the early game after countless restarts over the past year. I agree that finding an early helmet filter mod ruins the water survival gameplay but I wouldn't exactly call it a common occurrence. In both cases, I just sold it because I wanted to play the water survival game but I guess it is there for someone like you who doesn't. If you're finding it as a common item in all your restarts over the past two weeks you must be very happy. congrats.

Obviously anecdotal, but my first two worlds in A21 I never found one.  In my current world, I have 5, one of which I found in the very first quest I did on Day 1.  Technically it was the second POI I did, since I cleared out a POI to live in before I did my first quest.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Razorpony said:

I would say this is true IF there were lakes and rivers of unaccessible gasoline and acid in the world but there are not.

 

I'm talking about the actual containers of consumables as they are represented in the game and yes, they are factually all consistent with each other now. Are the gathering methods of consumables all exactly the same? No. Is the history of what substance was loot only and what substance was harvestable or craftable the same? No. But I never claimed they were. I agree that for veterans who can't let go of the past, the history of how things used to be is probably a very important piece of this. I also agree that for someone who wants the method of extraction of different resources to be consistent then that piece is very important.

 

All I am telling the OP who asked the question was why TFP got rid of the physical representation of a container for a consumable and that is because it was the only one in the game and they wanted such empty containers to be consistent across the board. As to how water vs shale is collected or the historical differences in the game between water and acid, those things weren't the concern. But getting rid of jars was which is why I didn't want the OP to have false hope that jars would be reinstated by the developers in case the OP thought that getting rid of jars was simply collateral damage for the water change. It was, in fact, the impetus for the water changes. It's fine by me if you disagree with that design goal or think the game was better before. I'm just giving information about why the change occurred and why it is unlikely to be reversed.

 

16 minutes ago, Razorpony said:

I guess there are people out there who find the hydration gameplay loop fun. Not me, but people. Somewhere. Out there. *waves hand*

 

Not everyone thinks every aspect of a game is fun. Fun for 100% isn't a realistic goal. The developers and the team found it fun and have continued to find it fun for about a year (The water change was implemented about a year ago internally). They are developing the kind of game they like to play. There are other features that have been implemented and then removed before they ever were experienced by the public because the devs decided that they didn't like them once they got to play with them. It's not like they would have left it in after playing with it for a year if they didn't think it was fun. So there are some (pretty important) people you waved at. It's only been a couple of weeks with the public so we will see if there are others. So far there have been a lot of positive comments about the water changes on many social media platforms including here. Since you're waving at them maybe they'll say "Hi".

 

[Dmajor]

Personally, I enjoy the changes to the water. It's a much healthier system of getting water. Before, we would make 200 glass jars and once a week someone would do a "water run" to a hole in the ground. Then, the campfire would just spend 10 years boiling it all. The jars were annoying as all get out and I'm glad they're gone. With that said, could they tweak the dew collectors? Yes. Maybe you have to change the filter every so often? Maybe after like 30-50 jars or something.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Dmajor (see edit history)

[Survior]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

.., I just sold it because I wanted to play the water survival game but I guess it is there for someone like you who doesn't. If you're finding it as a common item in all your restarts over the past two weeks you must be very happy. congrats...

 

Just because I don't want to play the game like you do, making several dew catcher abominations on my rooftop or whatever, doesn't mean I don't want survival game mechanics, I'd argue that most people who like the change in water actually are doing it because they don't want to do with inventory and survival mechanics. I guess I'd just ask you to be less judgemental, not everyone who disagrees with a change is doing so because they want something easier.  There is a lot of us who just think the old system  it's out right a better, (though not perfect) mechanic.  

 

But, I guess you don't want to deal with inventory management.  (See how that works?)

 

 

[Roland]

11 hours ago, Survior said:

I'd argue that most people who like the change in water actually are doing it because they don't want to do with inventory and survival mechanics.

Possibly…or maybe they realize that being able to collect 20+ empty jars on day one which can then be filled all at once and all thrown into a fireplace without need for a cooking pot and then refilled (except by then you have 50+) for the rest of the game is not as much fun as building “abominations”. 
 

Im thinking that most people recognize that the old mechanic is far inferior. In my experience, people who never liked inventory management got a modlet to extend their backpack size ages ago. They haven’t been waiting around hoping TFP creates dew collectors to free up another slot….

[fragtzack]

I find dew collectors are good money sink. Later game, the new water system greatly simplifies operations.

 

Think of the  water changes this way:

 

Water is a bit more complicated the first few days, but in the long game the new water system pays huge dividend in time savings.

 

 The one quality of life mechanic I wish the devs would develop would be  a way to link an array of dew collectors into a single harvest container. 

Think of a hose running from 10 dew collectors into a single harvest container. Thus saving the survivor even more time late game.

Edited June 24, 2023 by fragtzack (see edit history)

[Skaarphy]

I agree with OP. The water situation might or might not have needed some improvement but this doesn't seem to be it. Dying of thirst while standing in a lake in a rainstorm shouldn't be possible but with A21 it is. Maybe TFP's priority shouldn't have been "we must remove glass jars and let's go from there" but "what can we do to improve the water situation while simulaneously increasing immersion?" Or at least not taking away from it. 

 

Instead what we got was the above mentioned nonsense plus the need to find a cooking pot ASAP - which should be possible just by going into the very first house you encounter but isn't. Understandably so because that would make things too easy, only this too comes at the price of a loss of immersion. A believable world, my tuchus, apparently.

 

And the weird thing is, it wasn't even such a hard task to accomplish, e.g. right-click on any body of water and you get a bottle of murky water, with a high chance for dysentery. Cook it to make it drinkable but still with a chance for dysentery, ditto for any related food items. Find a recipe to make it pure drinking water with zero chance for disentery.

Also, 95% of houses have a cooking pot in them because people have cooking pots. They might not have AK 47s but they have cooking pots.

 

edit: I just noticed, as a side benefit the three stages of water I mentioned could have finally made that iron stomach perk useful, or whatever it's called. You might want to invest into it when for a good long time in the game you don't have access to pure drinking water.        

Edited June 24, 2023 by Skaarphy (see edit history)

[Riamus]

5 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

I agree with OP. The water situation might or might not have needed some improvement but this doesn't seem to be it. Dying of thirst while standing in a lake in a rainstorm shouldn't be possible but with A21 it is. Maybe TFP's priority shouldn't have been "we must remove glass jars and let's go from there" but "what can we do to improve the water situation while simulaneously increasing immersion?" Or at least not taking away from it. 

 

Instead what we got was the above mentioned nonsense plus the need to find a cooking pot ASAP - which should be possible just by going into the very first house you encounter but isn't. Understandably so because that would make things too easy, only this too comes at the price of a loss of immersion. A believable world, my tuchus, apparently.

 

And the weird thing is, it wasn't even such a hard task to accomplish, e.g. right-click on any body of water and you get a bottle of murky water, with a high chance for dysentery. Cook it to make it drinkable but still with a chance for dysentery, ditto for any related food items. Find a recipe to make it pure drinking water with zero chance for disentery.

Also, 95% of houses have a cooking pot in them because people have cooking pots. They might not have AK 47s but they have cooking pots.

 

edit: I just noticed, as a side benefit the three stages of water I mentioned could have finally made that iron stomach perk useful, or whatever it's called. You might want to invest into it when for a good long time in the game you don't have access to pure drinking water.        

Keep in mind that the traders all sell pots so it isn't a big deal to get one if you are having trouble finding one.  Regarding finding them, I find so many I'd hate to see more.  I currently have 3 campfires set up and all of them have 3 pots and 3 grills in them (easier to store them there than in a box, though 3 is now the max for whatever reason).  Any more pots and I'll have to put them in a box or scrap them or sell them.  They were useful for making the chem station but are just wasted loot at this point.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

Dying of thirst while standing in a lake in a rainstorm shouldn't be possible but with A21 it is.

 

No its not. Just empty your hand and press E repeatedly to drink. If you have a vitamin and med bandage or painkillers you can drink even more.  Nobody has to die of thirst while standing in a lake in a rainstorm in A21.

[Survior]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

Im thinking that most people recognize that the old mechanic is far inferior. In my experience, people who never liked inventory management got a modlet to extend their backpack size ages ago. They haven’t been waiting around hoping TFP creates dew collectors to free up another slot….

 

Is that so?

 

 

On 6/24/2023 at 3:26 AM, warmer said:

I love the fact that I dont have to deal with jars or empty cans anymore. that was just a pain in the butt to inventory manage. 

 

On 6/24/2023 at 4:28 AM, Riamus said:

Yeah, I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice a little immersion for no more empty jars.  I don't even notice that they are gone anymore.

 

People who support this change are supporting a dumber less sandbox-y game in favor of an arcade game, that in conjunction with  the magazine system has pushed 7d2d WAY into that field. 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Survior (see edit history)

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, Survior said:

People who support this change are supporting a dumber less sandbox-y game in favor of an arcade game, that in conjunction with  the magazine system has pushed 7d2d WAY into that field. 

Not having glass jars that were pretty pointless does not in any logical way connect the dots you're trying to connect.

[Skaarphy]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

No its not. Just empty your hand and press E repeatedly to drink. If you have a vitamin and med bandage or painkillers you can drink even more.  Nobody has to die of thirst while standing in a lake in a rainstorm in A21.

That is at least something. Doesn't take away the nonsense of not being able to scoop up some water and carry it home (with some sort of container, maybe? Like a jar or some such?) but still. That's good to know. 

 

3 hours ago, Riamus said:

Keep in mind that the traders all sell pots so it isn't a big deal to get one if you are having trouble finding one.  Regarding finding them, I find so many I'd hate to see more.  I currently have 3 campfires set up and all of them have 3 pots and 3 grills in them (easier to store them there than in a box, though 3 is now the max for whatever reason).  Any more pots and I'll have to put them in a box or scrap them or sell them.  They were useful for making the chem station but are just wasted loot at this point.

True. Buying a pot was the first thing I did, and it was no problem at all. They're dirt cheap, and apparently every trader has them now. But as for wasted loot, I don't see the issue here. Just like with plenty of other stuff which you eventually don't want anymore there's always the option of not taking it with you. 

And personally, I find the challenge of overcoming the chance for dysentery (as with my 3 water stages example) much more interesting than the challenge of getting hold of a cooking pot. 

Especially since once you have one getting drinkable water doesn't seem to much of a problem anymore. You just have to be very specific about how you go about it and before the first week is over having water for all kinds of puposes stops being an issue, and will remain so for the entire rest of the game.

Not sure if this is really the result TFPs were hoping for. Maybe, who knows. To me it just seems kind of meh.    

[Survior]

24 minutes ago, Skaarphy said:

...

but it's not much of a solution since you take health damage to do this afaik

 

[Skaarphy]

5 minutes ago, Survior said:

but it's not much of a solution since you take health damage to do this afaik

 

What do you mean?

[Jugginator]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:32 AM, Fuffel -Andre said:

In return, empty glasses can remain in the game. They can be a little rarer.

 

This is one major reason behind our decision to remove them. We would have had to remove them from a ton of loot tables, because with all the lootables we can loot, a tiny chance becomes a higher chance because 200 rolls at like 5% still nets quite a bit, then you have the return of a jar after drinking. There are some good points, but wanted to point out why we did that and some of the thought process behind it.in fact, we tried several iterations of lowering where jars/water would spawn, rarities, it just always equated to having a mass of water by day 7.

 

Honestly, a lot of players actually didn't keep jars often and kept throwing them away, it was inventory clutter.

[Syphon583]

20 minutes ago, Survior said:

but it's not much of a solution since you take health damage to do this afaik

 

 

15 minutes ago, Skaarphy said:

What do you mean?

They're talking about the chance to get dysentery when you drink from lakes/rivers. The thing is dysentery is pretty easy to cure and the chance is low. Also, if you're lucky enough to find a helmet filter mod, you can drink from bodies of water all you want without worry.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Survior said:

 

Is that so?

 

 

People who support this change are supporting a dumber less sandbox-y game in favor of an arcade game, that in conjunction with  the magazine system has pushed 7d2d WAY into that field. 

 

So Warmer and Riamus each represent a few thousand gamers?  Their posts don’t even mean that they see less inventory clutter as the best REASON for the change, it only shows that they enjoy less inventory clutter as a BENEFIT of the change. 
 

Also, TFP have never ever claimed to be making any kind of simulation here. You decry aspects of the game shifting toward the arcade end of the spectrum as if it is some shocking detestable thing. I fully expect the game to land fully in the arcade realm by time they are finished with modifications to make it more sim-like being left to modders who want to shifted that direction. 
 

If A21 is helping you adjust your expectations away from a survival sim then that is all for the best. This game was never designed to be a sim nor have the developers ever claimed to be focused on realism. Fun over realism has always been their mantra and that usually results in a game well within the arcade realm. There’s nothing wrong with that. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Survior]

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

So Warmer and Riamus each represent a few thousand gamers?  Their posts don’t even mean that they see less inventory clutter as the best REASON for the change, it only shows that they enjoy less inventory clutter as a BENEFIT of the change. 
 

Also, TFP have never ever claimed to be making any kind of simulation here. You decry aspects of the game shifting toward the arcade end of the spectrum as if it is some shocking detestable thing. I fully expect the game to land fully in the arcade realm by time they are finished with modifications to make it more sim-like being left to modders who want to shifted that direction. 
 

If A21 is helping you adjust your expectations away from a survival sim then that is all for the best. This game was never designed to be a sim nor have the developers ever claimed to be focused on realism. Fun over realism has always been their mantra and that usually results in a game well within the arcade realm. There’s nothing wrong with that. 

P1. Yes, every poster here represents a thousand gamers at least who can't be bothered one way or another, but if that doesn't make you happy, if you go onto youtube you can find youtube comments with a couple thousand likes saying how they feel about the TFP and their nerf bat. If your too busy, I'll just say comments on youtube overwhelming are negative regarding these kinds of changes made over time.

 

P2,P3: There you go,  I feel good to read some honesty around here, I'm sure the 7d2d-fortnight edition is going to be bangers.

 

 

[Skaarphy]

12 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

 

They're talking about the chance to get dysentery when you drink from lakes/rivers. The thing is dysentery is pretty easy to cure and the chance is low. Also, if you're lucky enough to find a helmet filter mod, you can drink from bodies of water all you want without worry.

Right. I'm totally fine with that. Afaic, there should be all kinds of different problems in a game like this, along with various ways to overcome them. Polluted and dirty rivers and lakes, perfect. As long as things make sense and don't get too gamey. Which is, sadly, what I see it A21. I don't think it's terrible, it just could have been better, I believe.   

[Survior]

40 minutes ago, Skaarphy said:

What do you mean?

I'm assuming since the original post about this included the need for painkillers and bandages that your going to take damage for this somehow. IDK though.

[AtomicUs5000]

2 hours ago, Jugginator said:

 

This is one major reason behind our decision to remove them. We would have had to remove them from a ton of loot tables, because with all the lootables we can loot, a tiny chance becomes a higher chance because 200 rolls at like 5% still nets quite a bit, then you have the return of a jar after drinking. There are some good points, but wanted to point out why we did that and some of the thought process behind it.in fact, we tried several iterations of lowering where jars/water would spawn, rarities, it just always equated to having a mass of water by day 7.

 

Honestly, a lot of players actually didn't keep jars often and kept throwing them away, it was inventory clutter.

A good point. Replacement with a craftable leather flask that is not in any loot table would solve that.

[Old Crow]

How about changing the Dew Collectors to provide up to 4 or 5 water in a 24 hour in-game period? Having to build tons of these things if you get bad RNG finding murky water isn't fun. Going from 3 water per collector to 4 or 5 per collector was be reasonable but still punishing.

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Jugginator said:

Honestly, a lot of players actually didn't keep jars often and kept throwing them away, it was inventory clutter.

I guess I'm in the minority. I always kept empty jars. To make room, I often filled the empty jars at a water source and then stacked them with the looted murky water.
 

In the Undead Legacy mod, this behavior came in handy for me, as you can only craft empty jars very late in the game. Also, you couldn't fill them from a water source, but had to fill them from faucets, toilets, shower heads, or fire hydrants.

 

The empty jars have apparently been replaced by old sandwiches. I have no shortage of raw materials for antibiotics.

 

[theFlu]

8 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

carry it home (with some sort of container, maybe? Like a jar or some such?)

How about a Bucket? You can carry murky water home, and filter it through you drinking hat. Just not the water filter at the dew collector, as that one can only process dew. It's in the name, "Water filter", see? So, no crafting, but infinite drinking water wherever you want it.

 

7 hours ago, Survior said:

I'm assuming since the original post about this included the need for painkillers and bandages that your going to take damage for this somehow.

Drinking Murky Water, either from a jar or from a lake does 5 HP worth of damage per sip (+10 water. -5 HP). So, drink water, damage your gut, fix your gut by bandaging your left arm.. just like Bear Grylls. Or eat your vitamins beforehand, avoid the damage and the disease.