What was the point of the water change?

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth They nerfed water but gave us more food than ever when food was already everyhwere in A20 already. That´s weird. And having water everywhere but not beeing able to use it while needing 50 dew collectors is simply feeling wrong for a survival game.

 

I could get that you can´t drink the water after the war and the pandemic without complicated treatment, but not even beeing able to use it for glue is simply weird af. Especially because we simply need a waterfilter mod to be able to drink it.

Edited June 16, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

6 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth They nerfed water but gave us more food than ever when food was already everyhwere in A20 already. That´s weird. And having water everywhere but not beeing able to use it while needing 50 dew collectors is simply feeling wrong for a survival game.

 

I could get that you can´t drink the water after the war and the pandemic without complicated treatment, but not even beeing able to use it for glue is simply weird af. Especially because we simply need a waterfilter mod to be able to drink it.

I assume you are using the dew collectors for glue.  What are you using all that glue for? 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Playing as  group of 5 people and it´s for crafting. Repair kits, armor, vehicles, weapons. You need a lot of duct tape for 5 people. 50 is a bit of an exaggeration ofc. But i assume that at least 25 are needed.

Edited June 16, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[boban]

17 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

They nerfed water

 

 

I just tested the new build (just first day) and I was literally swimming in water by the end of it (found 2 cooking pots and about 15 murky waters). Might be just RNG though as I did find lucky goggles on my way to the trader. But I did loot just 2 POIs (one random on my way to trader, one Joe's sth for trader quest... I did double loot the 2nd one though as I was mad that the first quest threw a dog at me). If this wasn't RNG, just the trend with new update the water is un-nerfed, but reliant on constant looting.

[seagas]

[Vaeliorin]

3 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Frankly, I don't miss jars and cans at all.

Managing dew collector tedium vs managing jar crafting, inventory, and water gathering tedium.   I don't find one tedium better than the other tedium.

The difference is, with glass jars, I'd just go once a week and fill them up and then cook up whatever drinks/glue I wanted throughout the week.  And I almost never crafted jars.  But I also never threw them out, like most people seem to do.

 

If the dew collectors didn't have a max capacity (or I could pipe the water into a mass storage...), I might find it less tedious, but I don't want them ever not running, so I end up checking them every time I come back home.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Vaeliorin (see edit history)

[meganoth]

Since they fill up in the same time as plants grow up the easiest option is to harvest them at the same time you harvest your farm plots (if you have any), i.e. only every 3 days.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@boban As said in my original post i was talking about MP here. We are constantly short on water at day 14 with a group of 5. We need a lot of duct tape, vehicles take damage from literally everything, even from curbs sometimes. Tools degrade. Crafting weapons and armor. And also drinking, because drinking with the waterfilter often doesn´t work. At 80% of the water bodies i don´t get the "press E to drink"

 

SP has enough water easily.

[theFlu]

51 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Since they fill up in the same time as plants grow up

They seem to fill up every day for me..? Just place them on your "path in to your base/kitchen" and spam open/loot-all while running past them. Free water, no hassle.

[Vaeliorin]

Yeah, when I get a more permanent base set up, I'll put them somewhere more convenient, but at the moment since I restarted for b317, I just have everything shoved in anywhere it will fit at the moment.

[Melange]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:14 PM, AtomicUs5000 said:

I would say going from A16 to 17 was a huge change in game play loops for many people.

A17 was a shock to our previously known game mechanics. I didn't embrace it, and stopped playing the game until A18 was released. Maybe I just needed the time away from it all, because I enjoyed A18 through A20. Seems to me that A21 may well be dejavu all over again.  I have tried it a few hours, uninstalled it, and choose to continue playing A20.6 (with the UL overhaul mod) for now until such time an updated version of that mod becomes available. For me, A21 vanilla experimental has been over-hyped and under whelming. 

 

 

[AtomicUs5000]

4 hours ago, seagas said:

snip

 
That's a nice post and generally good advice, but I haven't really seen much doom and gloom in this topic. I actually thought it was a pretty decent discussion with people just voicing their opinions and experiences with this change. I for one know that I don't really like being considered a whiner for pointing out something I think could have been done better. Most of us here know very well we can tweak the game in various ways to our desires or that we can go back and play previous versions, but bringing that up in this context is off topic.

[boban]

46 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 I for one know that I don't really like being considered a whiner for pointing out something I think could have been done better.

 

Especially that similar discussion and name calling was done previously, after they changed the progression system from LBD to learn-by-perks (LBP). And now TFP themselves showed that LBP is not great system and changed it to learn-by-looting. Ofc the rationale is that it was always meant to be like that, but after 10 years of dev I don't buy this rationalization.

[Riamus]

Since they've made mods to craft from storage, I am sure we'll see a mod to loot all dew collectors before long.  I agree that it would be convenient to be able to loot all of them at once rather than individually, though I suppose it really isn't any different from farming.  Not really a fan of clicking all of those either but I do it anyway.  At least with dew collectors, it's just E,R,next,E,R,next,E,R,next,...

Edited June 17, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:02 PM, Survior said:

An efficient player will eventually overcome the artificial boundries of "mere survival" and establish a stash big enough to make as much glue as they want.

Thirst has always been meant to be overcome. This is exactly what the point of the change was so that both efficient and inefficient players could eventually establish a stash big enough to make as much glue as they wanted. Thank you for reiterating the design goal. 
 

Did you think you were poking a hole into something…?

[Blackrook]

Is my dew collector working correctly?  I get  about 1  and a half jars of water a day.

As far as I can judge need about 5+ jars  just to drink per day - and then the early stage food either needs water (eg boil eggs and boiled meat)   or  makes you more thirsty (eg charred meat) , so more for that,  plus extra to make glue to make another dew collector.

 

We have loot set at 50% which might not be helping as only found 5 jars of water by day 7, so  having to have buy it wholesale from the trader.

 

I wouldn't mind so much but in our game it is raining 50% of the time -   so  I'm 'walking' slowly away from z'ds   at 0% drink,

and I'm dying of thirst when its raining?        Dew collectors  ought to quadruple production in the rain at least!

 

I can see the reason it's been added,  but we are just going to end up with a big field of dew collectors (bit like an ugly

solar farm!)  and its not really going to slow end game production of glue much  just make it more annoying.

Instead they could of kept the empty jars,   but made them harder to forge,      eg you need charcoal   to get to a higher forge temperature to make   glass and steel   you can't just burn wood, or something like that.    

 

For now i've modded the rate of production in the dew collector so it makes it a bit faster - less hassle than putting the empty jars back in.  Hopefully this will make the game playable.    There is  fine line between liking a challenge  and  rage quitting.

 

 I've been playing 7 days  since August 2013 so this isn't a newb complaint . 

 

7 Days is still one of the best coop games to play with friends,   and the amount of epic play moments

we've had over the last 10 years is worth some of the ups and downs of design change.

(And when we don't like it ,  we  tweak the xml,  until we like it again! )

 

 

 

[Archael]

So promblems with water in postapocalyptic game is a problem... who would guess.
I lolve water scarcity. Tho a way for quicker gathering plants/water would be nice

[meganoth]

12 hours ago, theFlu said:

They seem to fill up every day for me..? Just place them on your "path in to your base/kitchen" and spam open/loot-all while running past them. Free water, no hassle.

 

I think initially it was said to be 1 day per jar, but looking into the XML it seems now to be between 6 and 10 in game hours per jar, which means on average the dew collector is full after just one day.

 

Ok, if you want the maximum out of it it actually is a daily chore.

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Blackrook said:

Is my dew collector working correctly?  I get  about 1  and a half jars of water a day.

As far as I can judge need about 5+ jars  just to drink per day - and then the early stage food either needs water (eg boil eggs and boiled meat)   or  makes you more thirsty (eg charred meat) , so more for that,  plus extra to make glue to make another dew collector.

 

I think water consumption depends on activity just like food. If am correct, you should not run distances in heavy armor for example or start digging through the night in your first nights. What you can do is invest in iron gut and rule 1 cardio.

 

What you definitely always should do is not drink water. Drink tea. Especially Red Tea as it also reduces food consumption when you are doing something. Teas give you 25 water while the water only gives you 20.

 

Charred meat is normally only needed on the first day as emergency food if at all. Make grilled meat, needs no water and has no penalty.

 

I think the balance is meant to be one dew collector is enough to supply one player. Additionally you can add further collectors for glue OR buy that stuff regularily at the trader and loot it. I find lots of glue in loot but you will see only half of that, so I think dew collectors are your best bet.

 

3 hours ago, Blackrook said:

 

We have loot set at 50% which might not be helping as only found 5 jars of water by day 7, so  having to have buy it wholesale from the trader.

 

If you have loot at 50% and you play as a group you definitely need to buy food and water at the trader in the first days.

 

 

3 hours ago, Blackrook said:

 

I wouldn't mind so much but in our game it is raining 50% of the time -   so  I'm 'walking' slowly away from z'ds   at 0% drink,

and I'm dying of thirst when its raining?        Dew collectors  ought to quadruple production in the rain at least!

 

Dew collectors reacting to rain would pose implementation problems and lower FPS. The problem is that areas where no player is are not loaded and not simulated. So either they load areas with dew collectors anyway (FPS draw) or dew collectors only collect rain when you are standing beside them

 

3 hours ago, Blackrook said:

 

I can see the reason it's been added,  but we are just going to end up with a big field of dew collectors (bit like an ugly

solar farm!)  and its not really going to slow end game production of glue much  just make it more annoying.

Instead they could of kept the empty jars,   but made them harder to forge,      eg you need charcoal   to get to a higher forge temperature to make   glass and steel   you can't just burn wood, or something like that.    

 

For now i've modded the rate of production in the dew collector so it makes it a bit faster - less hassle than putting the empty jars back in.  Hopefully this will make the game playable.    There is  fine line between liking a challenge  and  rage quitting.

 

 I've been playing 7 days  since August 2013 so this isn't a newb complaint . 

 

7 Days is still one of the best coop games to play with friends,   and the amount of epic play moments

we've had over the last 10 years is worth some of the ups and downs of design change.

(And when we don't like it ,  we  tweak the xml,  until we like it again! )

 

 

 

 

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, boban said:

 

Especially that similar discussion and name calling was done previously, after they changed the progression system from LBD to learn-by-perks (LBP). And now TFP themselves showed that LBP is not great system and changed it to learn-by-looting. Ofc the rationale is that it was always meant to be like that, but after 10 years of dev I don't buy this rationalization.

 

Sorry, it is still LBP. The only difference now is that instead of finding complete schematics you find them "in pieces". And the alternative of getting them via perks was removed.

 

[boban]

52 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sorry, it is still LBP.

 

Sorry, it is learning-by-looting. You saying otherwise will not magically change how I and at least a few others on this forum feel about it.

[Greymantle]

7 minutes ago, boban said:

 

Sorry, it is learning-by-looting. You saying otherwise will not magically change how I and at least a few others on this forum feel about it.

 

ON the funny side, what if my survivor can't read, he would be doomed in this new version.

[meganoth]

5 minutes ago, Greymantle said:

 

ON the funny side, what if my survivor can't read, he would be doomed in this new version.

 

Weapons and food can easily be found in loot. The joke would be on the one who can read but gets eaten by zombies while reading a magazine 😁

 

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, boban said:

 

Sorry, it is learning-by-looting. You saying otherwise will not magically change how I and at least a few others on this forum feel about it.

 

No, I won't change how you **feel**, that is very clear.

 

If someone plays this game just for its crafting aspect, he could actually, from his viewpoint, argue that his progression is almost fully governed by Learn-by-Reading. The difficulty for such a player (in all alphas) was to make a main occupation out of something that was designed as one of many small side jobs.

 

 

[Riamus]

I found the missing glass jars.  They are now used as floating bicycle headlights.