Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, sloejack said:

A brief read through recent posts here seems like this path is set. Please at least consider implementing a player instanced loot for items that impact the ability to progress your character so that even if you play with loot ninjas you can still progress at a reasonable pace.

The trader sells magazines and offers them as rewards for quests. But I don't know much that is compared to what you find in loot during the quest and if it is enough for a reasonable pace.

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[sloejack]

43 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

The trader sells magazines and offers them as rewards for quests. But I don't know much that compared to what you find in loot during the quest.

 

The trader will have a limited random supply relative to what you can get from jobs.  I actually like scavenging and discovering stuff, but the loot/container mechanics are not good for multi-player. For me it largely leads to feels-bad experiences whether it's waiting to get into a storage container (because the clock doesn't stop while waiting to get access to the shared loot boxes) or getting beat out of the experience of looting something by someone who zoomed past you while you were fighting, it's just a fun-siphon.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, sloejack said:

The trader will have a limited random supply relative to what you can get from jobs.  I actually like scavenging and discovering stuff, but the loot/container mechanics are not good for multi-player. For me it largely leads to feels-bad experiences whether it's waiting to get into a storage container (because the clock doesn't stop while waiting to get access to the shared loot boxes) or getting beat out of the experience of looting something by someone who zoomed past you while you were fighting, it's just a fun-siphon.

This brings back what I said a long time ago: MP and SP balancing should be completely separated.

I know it's a lot of work for the devs, but IMO they should have separate (alternative) loot tables for MP versus SP, it's the only way we don't end up fighting over scraps.

 

I don't care about MP and I don't want the game to be "ruined" by MP players needs.

There's already the useless "Carismatic Nature" perk, that is completely unused in single player games.

That, in itself, is IMO a design flaw.

[Victor.19]

@RolandCan they give us a peek at the bad guys? Something to make us more excited about A21.

[Callum123456789]

8 minutes ago, Victor.19 said:

@RolandCan they give us a peek at the bad guys? Something to make us more excited about A21.

to be honest i dont think they have bandits in right now but i did hear a little while ago they have someone working on them full time 

[sloejack]

24 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I don't care about MP and I don't want the game to be "ruined" by MP players needs.

There's already the useless "Carismatic Nature" perk, that is completely unused in single player games.

That, in itself, is IMO a design flaw.

 

I think the assumption with this statement is that there's a state in the game that you should have all of the perks/abilities and they are all useful all the time.  Not sure I agree with the sentiment but I understand where you're coming from.  I'm not sure how MP functionality detracts from the SP experience, but we definitely see how the SP mechanics impact MP experience

[JCrook1028]

22 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

but this sounds like this change will also extend to skills as well.

Nope, it only applies to crafting. Not how effective you are at mining with the tool or shooting with the gun.

[Callum123456789]

borderlands support barrels confirmed for 7dtd? nah im only joking lol its just that this caught my eye 

[Telly G]

barrels have always exploded when struck, they just made it so only certain things explode barrels now.

[Callum123456789]

16 minutes ago, Telly G said:

barrels have always exploded when struck, they just made it so only certain things explode barrels now.

i mean it says aoe debuffs maybe like an acid effect

[Slingblade2040]

Are some new ores or maybe smelting options for mass producing going to be introduced?  Not to mention a overhaul to the options menu. I don't know if I'm speaking for myself but an advanced options menu where we can adjust wandering horde size, damage done by zombies, adjustments to trader and vending machine restock days and a few other things would be amazing and make the game not just more challenging for some of us seasoned players but also give us a huge QoL improvement as far as adjusting game difficulty goes. 

[Vintorez]

The main thing that I would recommend implementing with the new system is for the magazine loot table to factor in all player's perk adjustments, perhaps with its own slider akin to the kill xp share range.

 

So let's say you set the range to 10k. If I go looting as an SMG user, I would also find magazines suitable to my Shotgun user friend who prefers to stay near the base and gather raw resources. I may find less of my own because the quantity would stay the same, but it means my friend doesn't fall behind just because looting isn't his responsibility. Or we can just set the range to 100, and that way we can let your speed looter do his thing while still getting our cut.

 

Perhaps even better it could just be a toggle in the social menu that can be flipped on the fly. Tick on "Enable Party Loot" and everyone who also enables it will be factored into a communal magazine probability table. Then if somebody needs to catch up or just wants to speed ahead a bit more they can drop out (with an automatic party alert) and take on a few POIs to get their ranks up.

 

The fewer people you play with, the more work each individual has to do. If you play solo then you need to be a jack of all trades to an extent. But in multiplayer players often divide the responsibilities, and some end up looting far less than others by choice. I think it's a fair assumption that every play group will have somebody looting, but the new system assumes that every player will be looting, which is not always the case and a scenario that should be accounted for.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Vintorez (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:23 AM, P3rf3ctVZer0 said:

@meganothThis is all you need to attack an every day user.
 

I hope this helps illuminate how dangerous hosting this game is. I am going to bed. Do what you will with my nightmare I lived. I just know that this game has security flaws on top of the other stuff.

...any port scanner will find your open ports.  There are a bazillion ways to get your IP, I'd rather not make it even MORE difficult for players to join than it already is, thank you.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Vintorez said:

but the new system assumes that every player will be looting

 

I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists. Even perked into a couple of skills that match magazines you still find a wide variety of magazines. The boost is really more of a safety net against never finding the magazines that you really want. I'm not against an option to merge allies' perk boosts into one team boost for anyone that loots. I just don't really think it is as necessary as some are worrying it is. You have no idea whether there will be any significant disadvantage for those who don't loot and rely on their friends to bring back what they need-- you are just afraid that might be the case. If someone is out looting and finds 3 magazines that align with what the person is home building wants and 4 magazines for themselves at the end of the day then there isn't really that large of a disadvantage. I think teams will know more after actually playing with it how it will affect their dynamics. I guess the big question remains, how often were people crafting the weapons they perked into anyway? They spent their perks in their chosen specialization but was that to get the bonuses for the weapon or so they could craft it? I guess if they always crafted their own weapons then this is going to be a big change for them but if they usually had someone on their team offer to buy them their weapon of choice they just saw at the trader or found in a treasure room or received as a quest reward then there will be no real difference for them. They will still be able to use the skill points they earned by building and mining to improve their skill in their weapon.

 

 

[Laz Man]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists. Even perked into a couple of skills that match magazines you still find a wide variety of magazines. The boost is really more of a safety net against never finding the magazines that you really want. I'm not against an option to merge allies' perk boosts into one team boost for anyone that loots. I just don't really think it is as necessary as some are worrying it is. You have no idea whether there will be any significant disadvantage for those who don't loot and rely on their friends to bring back what they need-- you are just afraid that might be the case. If someone is out looting and finds 3 magazines that align with what the person is home building wants and 4 magazines for themselves at the end of the day then there isn't really that large of a disadvantage. I think teams will know more after actually playing with it how it will affect their dynamics. I guess the big question remains, how often were people crafting the weapons they perked into anyway? They spent their perks in their chosen specialization but was that to get the bonuses for the weapon or so they could craft it? I guess if they always crafted their own weapons then this is going to be a big change for them but if they usually had someone on their team offer to buy them their weapon of choice they just saw at the trader or found in a treasure room or received as a quest reward then there will be no real difference for them. They will still be able to use the skill points they earned by building and mining to improve their skill in their weapon.

 

 

 

Roland makes a good point here.  If crafting wasn't significant to a player before, its not going to be different to them afterwards if they don't engage in the new system.

 

I predict the people who will have the toughest time adapting to this change are those who got use to perking into unlocking a specific recipe right away.

 

Personally, I feel unlocking recipes via magazines is far more rewarding then unlocking them via perk points.  There is also the upside that you no longer limited to what you can craft.

 

You now have more incentive to loot and have an additional avenue to obtain better quality weapons/armor.

 

Edit: I imagine this would improve multiplayer as well as it introduces another commodity to seek/trade/sell amongst each other.  It also feels immersive as it feels more natural to find lost knowledge of the past this way.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Matt115]

16 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Roland makes a good point here.  If crafting wasn't significant to a player before, its not going to be different to them afterwards if they don't engage in the new system.

 

I predict the people who will have the toughest time adapting to this change are those who got use to perking into unlocking a specific recipe right away.

 

Personally, I feel unlocking recipes via magazines is far more rewarding then unlocking them via perk points.  There is also the upside that you no longer limited to what you can craft.

 

You now have more incentive to loot and have an additional avenue to obtain better quality weapons/armor.

 

Edit: I imagine this would improve multiplayer as well as it introduces another commodity to seek/trade/sell amongst each other.  It also feels immersive as it feels more natural to find lost knowledge of the past this way.

Laz man... that's a point to be limited.  Idk if this new system is "fun" ( btw not every game have to be fun to be good - dark souls is good because is frustrueting, Factorio is good game because you have to deal problems so you feel satisfaction). It's just less immersive - If you watch Walking Dead you can remember few episodes when they were looking for doctor. Because if someone is good doctor he can't be good mechanic because it's too much knowledge.  So... if someone is good cook ( i mean rly good cook like top chef not "my husband is good cook") is bad mechanical , if someone is good gunsmith he will be bad builder, if someone is good  medic he willl know how to shot and how to patch wounds.  Well we don't know too much about 7dtd lore but using logic ---> more time after fall ---> less knowledge because reading books can't learn you how to do a lot of things --> So let say 7dtd happens 20 year after DAY 0 ---> kids of our character will be thinking that this funny small mirrors were electronical mirrors, kids of their kids will know how to use guns but will have no idea how to make good one , and kids of their kids of their kids of their kids will wearing leather clothes and running with bows. why? it's hard to explain in our times so i will give you medieval as example. In this period there were armorer and i don't remember english word of blacsmith focused on making weapons. This same thing with leather , fabrics, sewing etc. 

 

Yes this is game so this have to be playeble so need of 50 people and tons of stuff to make 1 gun would be hell . But still specialisation should be necceasy

 

Bob - cook and farming

Will - crafting 

Niki - looting and quests

Micheal -  building + defence

Tom- tank and dps.

 

Now someone can say " yeah but if you know basic you can learn from book how to make this things better" and that's will be true but incorrect. Why?  I will give example. I'm playing with my friend in Factorio --> lack of red panels because there is not enough steel because there is not enough iron because iron deposit is low.  And in theory our characters are in much much better situation that 7dtd characters. Why? more resources and they can recraft them easy ( this can be logical because SCI FI stuff - probably their suits have some tools etc.)

7dtd world is destroyed so much so this should be hard to find parts, materials etc. So there would be no point to learn 5 people how to make guns if there only job for 1 person. and another person can ask me "but what if this person will die" anwer is..... well too small group don't have chance to survive a longer period so group must be big enough to let them have children so in this group will be few people who can do this same thing but ( idk how big is number   to keep minimal population) but this will be 5 people on 50 people. For 8 people 1 person is good enough

[Inoxx]

Is there steam workshop integration in the works?

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

7 minutes ago, Inoxx said:

Is there steam workshop integration in the works?

From my understanding yes just not for the a21 if I am correct.

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Laz man... that's a point to be limited.  Idk if this new system is "fun" ( btw not every game have to be fun to be good - dark souls is good because is frustrueting, Factorio is good game because you have to deal problems so you feel satisfaction). It's just less immersive - If you watch Walking Dead you can remember few episodes when they were looking for doctor. Because if someone is good doctor he can't be good mechanic because it's too much knowledge.  So... if someone is good cook ( i mean rly good cook like top chef not "my husband is good cook") is bad mechanical , if someone is good gunsmith he will be bad builder, if someone is good  medic he willl know how to shot and how to patch wounds.  Well we don't know too much about 7dtd lore but using logic ---> more time after fall ---> less knowledge because reading books can't learn you how to do a lot of things --> So let say 7dtd happens 20 year after DAY 0 ---> kids of our character will be thinking that this funny small mirrors were electronical mirrors, kids of their kids will know how to use guns but will have no idea how to make good one , and kids of their kids of their kids of their kids will wearing leather clothes and running with bows. why? it's hard to explain in our times so i will give you medieval as example. In this period there were armorer and i don't remember english word of blacsmith focused on making weapons. This same thing with leather , fabrics, sewing etc. 

 

Yes this is game so this have to be playeble so need of 50 people and tons of stuff to make 1 gun would be hell . But still specialisation should be necceasy

 

Bob - cook and farming

Will - crafting 

Niki - looting and quests

Micheal -  building + defence

Tom- tank and dps.

 

Now someone can say " yeah but if you know basic you can learn from book how to make this things better" and that's will be true but incorrect. Why?  I will give example. I'm playing with my friend in Factorio --> lack of red panels because there is not enough steel because there is not enough iron because iron deposit is low.  And in theory our characters are in much much better situation that 7dtd characters. Why? more resources and they can recraft them easy ( this can be logical because SCI FI stuff - probably their suits have some tools etc.)

7dtd world is destroyed so much so this should be hard to find parts, materials etc. So there would be no point to learn 5 people how to make guns if there only job for 1 person. and another person can ask me "but what if this person will die" anwer is..... well too small group don't have chance to survive a longer period so group must be big enough to let them have children so in this group will be few people who can do this same thing but ( idk how big is number   to keep minimal population) but this will be 5 people on 50 people. For 8 people 1 person is good enough

 

I'm sorry Matt...but...

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

18 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

I'm sorry Matt...but...

This is my favorite boondocks quote I actually reposted the original on EAs twitter XD in direct regards to Battlefield 2042

Edited May 25, 2022 by P3rf3ctVZer0 (see edit history)

[Star69]

@Laz Man it will greatly affect how I play for the reasons that you posted, in fact it will completely invalidate our play style. But, do you know what? I don’t care because for me and my friends it will become a new game with big adjustments to our playing and I love that! New game for us so it’s a bonus. I can’t wait for it to drop and having to figure out the adjustments to our play styles.

[Laz Man]

3 hours ago, Star69 said:

@Laz Man it will greatly affect how I play for the reasons that you posted, in fact it will completely invalidate our play style. But, do you know what? I don’t care because for me and my friends it will become a new game with big adjustments to our playing and I love that! New game for us so it’s a bonus. I can’t wait for it to drop and having to figure out the adjustments to our play styles.

 

I wish everyone shared your same attitude...😅

 

As a fan of 7d2d, one thing I have always enjoyed over the years is learning to overcome whatever new changes came with each Alpha.  Especially when demolishers were added.

 

It helps that the game is inherently meant to be played multiple times.  From a single player stand point, I always found it fun to see if I could beat my personal records (e.g how long to survive without dying, how many horde nights can I survive, increase difficulty level, play a different build, live in a different biome, build a new type of base, etc.).

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Edit: I imagine this would improve multiplayer as well as it introduces another commodity to seek/trade/sell amongst each other. 

 

As long as the team isn't dysfunctional-- bullying each other over what containers are opened by whom or selfishly racing ahead of each other to open whatever they can for themselves and arguing over who gets what. The game is rated MA after all and that doesn't have to refer only to violence, gore, sex, drugs...er...candy, and profanity.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[sloejack]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists.

 

 

In terms of perk benefits that may be true, but the change as I understand it isn't just about boosts but whether you can craft something or not since it will now require getting the required magazine. So assuming everyone plays 'fair' then sure maybe it will all just work out. So I'm amending my prior concern that it's not about the change of how skills/capabilities are acquired. It's that the change IMO will exasperate the challenges with multi-player since people don't play to the design and only play to the rules of the game until they figure out a way to bend them. So, I'll leave it at this - this seems to be more than just a change to how that part of the game works for an individual but has a high potential for negative dynamics in multi-player.

 

The current system (A20) from my perspective falls in line with your statement. The acquisition of skills to be able to perform the core building/crafting of the game are independent of the luck of random loot gen and are part of meaningful decisions .  Random Loot Gen is interesting and makes exploring/scavenging fun as as provides a boost to the core skills or overall play.  This change (A21) appears to remove the common building blocks of character development and throws it all at (weighted) RNG based on a path selection.  This makes magazines more important to being able to play the game than they currently are and by extension increases the luck factor of the game.  If it's weighted so heavy as to effectively grant the same capabilities by forcing the magazines that drive the same progression onto you then the value of the change is just change for change's sake.

 

So while experiences with that will be different for different people, I am not a fan of the premise as it feels like meaningful decision is being taken away and replaced by the roll of the dice.

[Mad_Dane]

Making an open world crafting game, where you gimp crafting (Best items can only be  looted) and where you force every one to play ONE WAY, go loot or build your gdamn castle with a stone axe and be a gimp forever!
What is with your damn fetish for forcing everyone to go loot?