Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@BenZ0 That works if they wanna use the same weapons that i use. If they wanna use different ones, they have to go looting themselves a lot more than they do now. None of us looters does use rifles or the sledgehammer. Our builder loves them. That´s gonna be a problem because i won´t find a lot of rifle/sledgehammer magazines as i am not specced into them. And that gets worse and worse the more i level my weapons. The higher my weapons skill are the lower the amount of magazines i find for other skills. 

 

You are probably correct, but looting the weapons themselves is still random, so you will find a rifle or sledgehammer to bring home to them. Or they buy the weapon at the trader.

 

It probably means you will have your weapons getting better more reliably because you can always craft a better weapon if you don't find it in loot while they depend on the loot. But that is okay, you as looter need your weapons much more than they

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

1 minute ago, Oliwhere said:

 

So all the paper we have been looting so far was actually printed, but we just haven't been smart enough yet to decipher it? 😉

 

Just don't expect the paper in toilets to magically turn into magazines....😆

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

Quote

2. Nope but i made mistake VR before gold story after

@Matt115 Cannot do VR until performance is 600% better especially during hoards and larger servers XD the only thing laggy VR will give you is a serious headache XD

21 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Roland... how many times i was thinking about worst case scenario and i was right about that?

What's wrong with that? Honestly as you say "Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying.". For logical point of view paper drops are.... just pages from not necessary books --> your character don't need romance, fantasy novel or sci-fi book right? 

"Book stores will definitely be treasure troves of lost knowledge" - if you would use just logic... 99% of books in typical book store is not useful during zombie apocalypse. So this would be strange if you found 20 different books about guns, 10 about making tools etc., it would be probably --> 50 different books about food, old computer programming book and tons of useless books.

I can see your point but other then more books being in bookshelves and then just equating to paper and stacking to 500 I can see why it might seem silly. There is nothing wrong with the current system and I agree we should focus on simply boosting performance by any means necessary. (No telling people don't do X is not a solution.) there is very clear issues with
 

• Zombie Spawn Lag
• Party EXP Share Lag
• Structure Spawning Lag
• Even Quest Loading Lag

 

Pretty foolish to ignore the elephants in the room. Not to mention servers should be able to safely host 100 people. (Similar to minecraft and other large scale survival games. Too bad it is not built on the unreal 5 engine - pretty sure they could do this on such a powerful titan.)

Edited May 22, 2022 by P3rf3ctVZer0 (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

52 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

This system will also lead to looting bookstores heavily. Every game, no matter wich playstyle you choose will focus on finding bookstores. This change will make them the most importnant building in the whole game. You will see bookstores over and over again, the system forces you to do so. Wich will lead to a whole bunch of problems on public servers.

 

Perhaps if magazines were only found in bookstores and minimally everywhere else but that's not how it is right now.  As far as I can remember, players always enjoyed finding a high value POI in their exploration.  On competitive servers, I would think having highly contested POIs a positive thing as well.

[Roland]

17 minutes ago, P3rf3ctVZer0 said:

There is nothing wrong with the current system and I agree we should focus on simply boosting performance by any means necessary.

Right. There are people working on that. TFP is actually quite a bit larger than it used to be. Joel Huenink designing the change to the current system isn’t stealing away resources from the programmers who are working on boosting performance. That is always an ongoing project and something that faatal actually devotes a significant portion of his time to doing. 
 

I just want to say that I’m not defending blindly. I actually can see the work logs posted by the TFP team and I’m telling you that believing that it must be one feature or another is a false assumption. They have a big team and people tasked  to enable them to do this and that rather than simply this or that. 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

Quote

Those users don’t like to come here not because their opinions won’t be considered but because the level of toxicity of their language and tone that they like to use is not welcome. I’ve monitored those other sites as well and I see how terrible they are to any “fanboy” who speaks up. Here, people challenge their points and don’t tolerate their insults so it’s no wonder they stay away. But there are still people who come and give contrary opinions with respect and who are willing to discuss their criticisms civilly and their opinions remain. 

@Roland I can understand that - honestly this is the most vocal I have been in years. I know one way or another things will get fixed. I guess I am a bit Jaded. I do feel greatly offended the 'The Fun Pimps' is not putting 1000% focus into fixing lag and just quadrupling performance. A large chunk of my friends won't even play because they say 'That Indie game you bought 10 years ago that still lags? Nah, I am good.' They have no real incentive to ignore that. I would gather as many minds as I could in their shoes and be like 'Yep we have a problem this should be our key focus.' My frustration comes solely at the fact that they neither address or properly take steps to fix it. The game should not lag this far in development. The scale of game is no consequence. I have seen larger scale games do more. I feel slighted that the focus is not lasered in on this ya know? Sure innovative systems are great; unless they continue to ignore the cancer festering in the code.

Quote

 

Right. There are people working on that. TFP is actually quite a bit larger than it used to be. Joel Huenink designing the change to the current system isn’t stealing away resources from the programmers who are working on boosting performance. That is always an ongoing project and something that faatal actually devotes a significant portion of his time to doing. 
 

I just want to say that I’m not defending blindly. I actually can see the work logs posted by the TFP team and I’m telling you that believing that it must be one feature or another is a false assumption. They have a big team and people tasked  to enable them to do this and that rather than simply this or that. 

 

I understand that and I also understand that they are not losing workers because some people can only do art etc. It just feels insulting.

Edited May 22, 2022 by P3rf3ctVZer0 (see edit history)

[Roland]

36 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Roland... how many times i was thinking about worst case scenario and i was right about that?

What's wrong with that? Honestly as you say "Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying.". For logical point of view paper drops are.... just pages from not neccesary books --> your character don't need romance, fantasy novel or scifi book right? 

Honestly Matt, I don’t doubt that your worst case scenario fantasies have come to life. But your worst cases are pretty unique to you. Also, don’t take what I said to extreme. There is still paper mixed in but you will never again loot an entire bookstore and end up with a team of paper and very little actual books. What I am saying is that looting a bookstore will feel rewarding. You will not come even close to finishing one of your skill trees after raiding a bookstore but you will feel it was time worth spent. It’s not raining magazines. I’m sure there will be some tweaking of the balance once everyone gets their hands on it. 

[Roland]

8 minutes ago, P3rf3ctVZer0 said:

It just feels insulting.

The problem is that they are still adding features that eat up performance. So they make performance gains and then use it up again for city centers that have huge POI densities (for example). There will come a day when they will be done adding and every performance gain they find will be a pure boost that remains for the existing game. 
 

As far as lag due to net code they are working on it but within the context of 8 or fewer players. My group is three or four and we suffer very minimal lag problems only sometimes. 
 

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

Just now, Roland said:

The problem is that they are still adding features that eat up performance. So they make performance gains and then use it up again for city centers that have huge POI densities (for example). There will come a day when they will be done adding and every performance gain they find will be a pure boost that remains for the existing game. 
 

As far as lag due to net code they are working on it but within the context of 8 or fewer players. My group is three or four and we suffer very minimal lag problems only sometimes. 
 

 

Thanks for taking the time to humor me and honestly I didn't think of it that way. I know as a Minecraft Modpack Dev I take a similar approach add all the content that I want then I remove content or tweak settings until I reach a certain performance threshold. I look forward to the future.

[KhaineGB]

Oh yeah, it really is. I went INT on the server me and my wife were playing on and I just sat there building the base (wife went for the mining tree to give me resources) and kitted everyone out with vehicles and stuff.

It was insane.

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, KhaineGB said:

Personally I would LOVE to know the reasons from a straight up design perspective on WHY something was changed, but that's because I want to learn.

 

My best guess is because the previous iteration was mostly insignificant?  For example, apart from crafting multiple junk turrets (INT playthrough), I personally never crafted other weapons / armor because I could always find better in loot (or at the trader) before I could find the parts needed for them let alone being perked high enough to have the higher quality.

 

To me, that is a system that needs attention and would need improvement.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

I actually did craft other weapons because RNG hates me so I rarely found about a 5. My wife did though.

[pookandpie]

The only thing I'm worried about is going back to hunting for Forge Ahead books again. I do not, under any circumstance, miss that from previous alphas (been playing since alpha 9 I think).

I actually prefer basebuilding and mining in this game compared to spamming quests, and it seems like this is an intentional change to push me out of how I like to play for the first 14-21 days of a new server.

I love 7 Days because of the freedom it affords; pushing or railroading me into different play styles reduces my freedom. I'll reserve full judgment until after the alpha comes out though.

[Roland]

The reasons for the change that I have gotten from Madmole:

 

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

 

He wants the crafting progression to be longer and to not double or triple up. No longer will being able to craft a blue stone tool mean you can automatically craft a blue iron or steel tool. The player has to learn how to craft every item separately and improve their crafting for that item separately. 
 

He wants more rewarding loot and the magazines fill out the containers. They are an exciting reward to get and there are so many varieties and duplicates that you need that it keeps looting exciting for a long time. 
 

It encourages more scavenging. Containers that used to quickly become boring and irrelevant boxes of worthless junk now often have a magazine.

 

He heard a lot of feedback about people not liking crafting recipes tied to the attributes and he agreed so he wanted to decouple crafting from the attribute trees. 
 

Those are what I’ve heard him say specifically. 
 

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

The reasons for the change that I have gotten from Madmole:

 

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

 

He wants the crafting progression to be longer and to not double or triple up. No longer will being able to craft a blue stone tool mean you can automatically craft a blue iron or steel tool. The player has to learn how to craft every item separately and improve their crafting for that item separately. 
 

He wants more rewarding loot and the magazines fill out the containers. They are an exciting reward to get and there are so many varieties and duplicates that you need that it keeps looting exciting for a long time. 
 

It encourages more scavenging. Containers that used to quickly become boring and irrelevant boxes of worthless junk now often have a magazine.

 

He heard a lot of feedback about people not liking crafting recipes tied to the attributes and he agreed so he wanted to decouple crafting from the attribute trees. 
 

Those are what I’ve heard him say specifically. 
 

 

I agree with that sentiment. I am just a fan of making large changes optional. Many people are not going to like it and others (Me) will be thrilled.

 

[Laz Man]

18 minutes ago, pookandpie said:

The only thing I'm worried about is going back to hunting for Forge Ahead books again. I do not, under any circumstance, miss that from previous alphas (been playing since alpha 9 I think).

I actually prefer basebuilding and mining in this game compared to spamming quests, and it seems like this is an intentional change to push me out of how I like to play for the first 14-21 days of a new server.

I love 7 Days because of the freedom it affords; pushing or railroading me into different play styles reduces my freedom. I'll reserve full judgment until after the alpha comes out though.

 

I think Roland said it best earlier.  The crafting change actually adds another option to the players decision tree which is a good thing in my opinion.

 

Do I grind quests for a magazine quest reward or some other type of quest reward that I need?

Do I forgo questing to loot POI x for a chance at magazine y because I (or a teammate) is so close to an unlock?

 

Keep in mind both of these options can lead to progression in crafting.  However, they certainly also have trade offs.  It is up to the player to make the choice which ones they engage in.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, P3rf3ctVZer0 said:

I agree with that sentiment. I am just a fan of making large changes optional. Many people are not going to like it and others (Me) will be thrilled.

 

I don’t know how they would make this change optional. There are quite a few changes to the UI, the perks, the loot tables, items, etc. This isn’t something an on/off switch or a slider can handle. 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

They could split the changes into db and have the user pick between free play progression thorugh xp and decoupled progression through doing. Its not hard to clone systems and have an api call that system. This would take affect anytime you loaded a world this would however make older worlds and saves no longer functional. Its a small sacrifice for a better future. As someone who happens to like callback system implementation - its not hard or even slow to do. No chance of bleed over either because simply put its like defining file structure path. This would also mean however you would need 2 separate mod system paths. (I miss the rage system) It would also not change the game size much either since the graphics are the largest assets.

Edited May 22, 2022 by P3rf3ctVZer0 (see edit history)

[Blake_]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

We try to extend a broad reach across as many demographics as we can so that the game has wide appeal but Cursed People aren’t really our target market.

I remember getting a purple stone axe, a purple pipe shotgun and a purple wooden club on day one with just a twist of the wrist. Not only that, the trader sold me a used cigar to boost my amazon store chances.  I did 6 POI that day and I had 1 point in Lucky Looter, but still, never again did I encounter such  odds in a game. I spent all the good karma in a playthrough. Lately, I find paper. Lots. 25% loot is an amazing experience. I wish there was a lesser loot chance option, like 5%. That's true survival struggling.

[Burrfly]

Talking about community-feedback, I will try to sum up some things which I've read (and which I personally agree with) in the alpha 20 and 21 dev diary. Hopefully I'm correct. If I'm not, let me know.

- Learning by Doing coming back is epic, Learning by Looting not so much because it reduces unique playstyles

- The need of (way) more varieties of zombies because right now there are too many clones. Some people don't care about visuals like these which I wish I didn't myself either. Wether it be a random chance of them wearing a hat, a random color shirt or some more varieties in general would be greatly appreciated by the community. I personally think this small problem was not a problem back in alpha 16/17 because zombie models weren't as unique as they are now - making finding clones harder (especially from a distance)
 

- In earlier alpha 20 builds especially, I read a lot and also noticed myself about there being too much ammo in loot. They reduced it in a later alpha 20 update, which is very nice. There were still some people (including me) who found ammo (including for example pipe bombs) that could be received from trader quest rewards too much

- Some didn't mind, but I also read a lot of people (including me) not liking the reduction of building materials and their upgrade path. For example, the removal of wet and reinforced concrete, flagstone, and reinforced wood. I personally disliked this change the most because, well... this was another REDUCTION of variety which I personally think should not be the target. Simplification is often a mistake and, yeah, for new players it might be less confusing, but also the experience of learning that there are so many possibilities in this game as a new player is really fun. Well, this was for me the case absolutely when I started playing ~4 years ago in alpha 16

- Some people have also wrote about them not liking the change of another reduction, namely the reduction of player clothing slots coming in alpha 21 if I'm correct. I do have to agree again, because this is another reduction/simplification, which... again... reduces variety, playstyle uniqueness and eventually replayability.

Again, this was just what I've read and which I do think as well. But ofcourse this doesn't count for everyone

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, Laz Man said:

To me, that is a system that needs attention and would need improvement.

I agree that crafting needs improvement but more on the technical level.

 

One improvement would be to block certain slots so that what is there is not used in crafting or upgrading. Who hasn't wasted steel by upgrading the wrong block or accidentally using their good wrench to build the workbench instead of the almost broken level 1 wrench ?

 

Also a search function for chests would be a welcome improvement.

 

Personally, I'm not convinced that the changes in A21 will help crafting as long as you can loot everything in better quality than what you can craft.

 

2 hours ago, Burrfly said:

- Learning by Doing coming back is epic, Learning by Looting not so much because it reduces unique playstyles

Learning be doing does not come back. Some mods implement it but in vanilla it is definitely dead.

[Callum123456789]

11 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Book stores will be hot targets as well.  😎

yep im excited for this too because between a19 and a20 i havent really felt that excitement to find them like i usually would for example i remember seeing a book store in a15 and being like yessss spiked club time! or in alpha 18 i could find some books for my club build or other stuff but now when these magazines are introduced im pretty sure that will restore that excitement i used to get and its gonna be good

[fyiiamaheavy]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

The reasons for the change that I have gotten from Madmole:

 

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

 

He wants the crafting progression to be longer and to not double or triple up. No longer will being able to craft a blue stone tool mean you can automatically craft a blue iron or steel tool. The player has to learn how to craft every item separately and improve their crafting for that item separately. 
 

He wants more rewarding loot and the magazines fill out the containers. They are an exciting reward to get and there are so many varieties and duplicates that you need that it keeps looting exciting for a long time. 
 

It encourages more scavenging. Containers that used to quickly become boring and irrelevant boxes of worthless junk now often have a magazine.

 

He heard a lot of feedback about people not liking crafting recipes tied to the attributes and he agreed so he wanted to decouple crafting from the attribute trees. 
 

Those are what I’ve heard him say specifically. 
 

 

I can't tell you how many items I get @%$#ed off because of a container having no loot in them. Now in alpha 21 ill have magazines to find in those. very excited for this to come. hey Roland Ill kindly test the feature with you sir

[pApA^LeGBa]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You are probably correct, but looting the weapons themselves is still random, so you will find a rifle or sledgehammer to bring home to them. Or they buy the weapon at the trader.

 

It probably means you will have your weapons getting better more reliably because you can always craft a better weapon if you don't find it in loot while they depend on the loot. But that is okay, you as looter need your weapons much more than they

 

 

 

The miner and builder do have to deal with screamer hordes. And wandering hordes. Slower progression in their weapons would make this harder for them. So if they wanna be prepared properly they need to go looting more. Wich is not the part of the game they enjoy the most.

 

The whole problem with this change is that you are forced to play in a certain way. And the freedom how to play is one of the key ingredients of this game. It´s the one thing that let´s people play together that have different interests when gaming. Take that away and a lot of people will be unhappy. Just wait how this will be received by people when it releases, you can be sure it will be a huge s-storm. Propably as huge as A17 death penalty.

Edited May 22, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

However, this means that some of the replayability is lost. Whether you find a schematic early, late or never can change the game significantly. For example, a Day 70 horde with a pistol is very different from one with an SMG.