Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Roland]

54 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Also, why do you support gameplay that makes you feel like you're REQUIRED to invest points in something in order for you to do it at all??? (Such as Salvage Operations)

I support it because I’m okay playing the game at a lower ability level for a time and then after spending the points seeing that ability raised. I never feel like I can’t play the game until after I’ve perked up a particular skill. It isn’t the game making you feel required to wait. It’s something inside of you that compels you to do so. 

 

54 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Gathering/looting perks should only be for harvesting speed and calorie efficiency. Not for amount harvested. That just results in people feeling like they can't even play the game until they invest points.

Not all people. I like the perks that allow you to get more. To me, it feels that I’m more skilled and can get more out of my harvesting than an unskilled character. I’m not just faster but I actually have better success. But I never feel like I can’t start playing using my base abilities. 

 

54 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Have you ever played with friends? Have you ever experienced the fruatration of one person being specced into Lucky Looter and when ANYONE else loots, they get yelled at because the containers they open magically have worse gear than the lucky looter? LOGIC! Now imagine that but only even worse with this new system they want to implement.

 I wouldn’t  call those people friends. In our group everyone opens their own containers. Whoever shares the quest gets to open the treasure room loot and everyone loots cupboards and containers along the way. Opening a container is one of the most rewarding parts of the game and to try to optimize gameplay by denying that fun action to anyone of a lower loot gamestage is outrageous. So our group might take an extra week or two of game time to get all the best loot. So what? Why is it so important to your group that you get all the best stuff as quickly as possible to the point that someone gets yelled at for daring to open a container and get a yellow pipe machine gun instead of a blue pipe machine gun or even a green AK47?  Eventually, yes, that person will be pulling AK 47s and in the meantime can play with the gun they found or sell it to get something else. All this is, is choosing min/max crap over friendship. And the really sad part is that as a team, together, you are way more than a match for the difficulty curve of the game even with suboptimal weapons so all the bullying over who opens a container is just pointless. Nobody is going to fail at survival by letting anyone open whatever box they want. 
 

As to the new system. The opposite is actually the case. You have the best chance of getting the loot you need by opening a box yourself since you are the one who perked into your own skills. Even Mister Top Lootstage isn’t going to be able to supply you with the mags you want better than you can so hopefully this will change the meta somewhat so that people are more likely to open their own boxes instead of having a designated looter. 
 

54 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Or just don't have the perk at all

But you can’t control whether the game is going to have perks and skills and levels. (It is). You can, however, control who you play with…

 

23 minutes ago, Code6 said:

I am nearly positive that I posted a comment about the behavior of writeable storage boxes yesterday and now I cannot find it.  Did it get moderated/deleted or am I going crazy?  (I just want to understand before I repost it.)

I moved it to the Alpha 20.5 thread where it should have been posted. The A21 thread is not for posting bugs. Better yet would be for you to post in the bug report forum. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[BenZ0]

I am kinda worried about the crafting changes but I like the general idea here. I do have a question about that though, so as far as I understand you keep finding lets say shotgun books, they dont have a vol numbers so you just keep learning more and more of the same books to increase your quality and later unlock the next tier weapon. 

 

So if I want to craft better shotguns you keep looting gun stores or book stores to keep getting more and more of these books.

 

If I am wrong or if I misunderstood this would be nice if anyone can correct me here.

[Roland]

9 minutes ago, BenZ0 said:

I am kinda worried about the crafting changes but I like the general idea here. I do have a question about that though, so as far as I understand you keep finding lets say shotgun books, they dont have a vol numbers so you just keep learning more and more of the same books to increase your quality and later unlock the next tier weapon. 

 

So if I want to craft better shotguns you keep looting gun stores or book stores to keep getting more and more of these books.

 

If I am wrong or if I misunderstood this would be nice if anyone can correct me here.

Spot on!

[Oliwhere]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

We try to extend a broad reach across as many demographics as we can so that the game has wide appeal but Cursed People aren’t really our target market.

 

I think you underestimate your power 😉 My guess ist, that just changing the line 'rng = new Random(WorldSeed);' to something more random, could actually lift the curse for those that are doomed to repeat the same unlucky dice rolls session after session. 😀

 

Otherwise I like the sound of the new crafting progression - it seems to me that it would create a better pacing for the progression and make it more of a steady in-game process than a willfull player decision. I also like the fact that the tool parts will be more usefull due to the change to make their drop probabilites - it always bothered me with the old system that I ended up with a chest of tool parts that remained mostly unused.

Looking forward to test the new system in A21.

 

[BenZ0]

46 minutes ago, Roland said:

Spot on!

In that case my worries are soothed, that sounds like a great solution with the skill tree issue where especially solo or duo players had to spend a lot of skill points on various different trees just to craft something better. I think that is a really good solution you guys found there, I appreciate the effort you guys put into this game.

[fyiiamaheavy]

I am actually exited about the new crafting system and it looks and sounds interesting. First of all spending points to learn how to make higher quality items sounded silly since alpha 16. This new system and what I believe will work like this

 

If i wanted to put a point into Mining tools. Being at level 1 in the first for days of the game it doesn't make since that OH because I put a point into Mining I can now make tier 2 stone axes/shovels/Picks/axes/Augers which was really unrealistic to say the very least. Now in alpha 21 I suppose when you put a point into Mining all the perk does is maybe just increase the block damage and a few other bonuses instead of letting you now craft higher tier items. I believe the new crafting system is going to help those players early game and even to mid to late game who doesn't want to feel as if they wasted points. If I like using Knives I don't care to use the bone knife so I wouldn't waste a book on that but instead use it on the Knife or the machete. I don't see why people are @%$#ing about this change when it sounds pretty cool and balances out the skill level so you're not overpowered by day 3 and have quality 5 items. Now it forces players to not be lazy and go out to loot for a chance to get their weapons at higher level. I can't tell you how many Lazy players there is that just sit at the base and (upgrade) their base just to get skill points to then spend them in specific skills which then again allows them to be over powered by day 3. If I had to choose I would level up a iron shovel to level 5 I don't need a level 5 stone shovel it just doesn't feel realistic enough how the system is right now. Thanks madmole for giving us this beautiful new feature and I can't wait to get my hands on it !

[Kizzoap]

If I understand things correctly: to craft what I want, I need to get a respectable amount of the specific magazines for that thing, which all but requires me to perk into that related skill because of the weighted loot. To make motorcycles, I still need intelligence and grease monkey. It hasn’t fundamentally changed there, only become more tedious. 
 

But also, lootable/buyable crafting recipes have been removed from the game, so people not speccing into intelligence and grease monkey now have an even harder time getting a motorcycle, yeah? Same with the crucible. The only way to get these items will be by buying them outright or doing the magazine(and by extension, perk) grind. 

 

So all in all, we’re gating these crucial items even further behind Intelligence? I must have something wrong. 

[Mahnogard]

2 minutes ago, Kizzoap said:

If I understand things correctly: to craft what I want, I need to get a respectable amount of the specific magazines for that thing, which all but requires me to perk into that related skill because of the weighted loot. To make motorcycles, I still need intelligence and grease monkey. It hasn’t fundamentally changed there, only become more tedious. 

It sounds like location is going to be a factor as well, so you should still be able to get a decent amount of magazines by focusing on looting buildings related to the item, based on something that I think Roland said earlier. So I would guess gas stations for vehicle mags, hardware stores for tools, etc.

[Laz Man]

Book stores will be hot targets as well.  😎

[Kizzoap]

1 minute ago, Mahnogard said:

It sounds like location is going to be a factor as well, so you should still be able to get a decent amount of magazines by focusing on looting buildings related to the item, based on something that I think Roland said earlier. So I would guess gas stations for vehicle mags, hardware stores for tools, etc.

That means I’ll need to travel around the map to find new buildings related to them, which is sort of the reason I need a motorcycle…?

[pApA^LeGBa]

Learning by looting is a horrible idea for MP Coop. We have usually 2 people who don´t loot a lot doing building and mining, wich they do enjoy a lot. They do go out fighting and looting, but it´s their least favorite part of the game.  If they wanna use different weapons than us who go out looting they do have a big problem. 

 

They now have to choose to either do something they don´t enjoy as much more often or they can´t choose wich weapons to use.

 

Another step into forcing players to play the game in a certain way. Meh. Just hope that mods can fix this. It´s actually sad that you need mods to maintain the freedom to choose your playstyle.

Edited May 21, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[BenZ0]

18 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Learning by looting is a horrible idea for MP Coop. We have usually 2 people who don´t loot a lot doing building and mining, wich they do enjoy a lot. They do go out fighting and looting, but it´s their least favorite part of the game.  If they wanna use different weapons than us who go out looting they do have a big problem. 

 

They now have to choose to either do something they don´t enjoy as much more often or they can´t choose wich weapons to use.

 

Another step into forcing players to play the game in a certain way. Meh. Just hope that mods can fix this. It´s actually sad that you need mods to maintain the freedom to choose your playstyle.

They dont have to go looting, no one said they have to craft their own weapons. You as the looter can go and find the books and then craft the weapons they want for them or you simply bring the crafting books to them, you just stash them in your car, bike whatever and then bring them to your base. Thats how I do it with my friends, I have a friend who loves playing with the bow so everytime I find a bow perk book I just keep it and bring it home for him, same goes then to the new crafting system but instead of perk books the new crafting books. Also I am fairly sure they will stack now since they are not seperated in different volumes. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by BenZ0 (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@BenZ0 That works if they wanna use the same weapons that i use. If they wanna use different ones, they have to go looting themselves a lot more than they do now. None of us looters does use rifles or the sledgehammer. Our builder loves them. That´s gonna be a problem because i won´t find a lot of rifle/sledgehammer magazines as i am not specced into them. And that gets worse and worse the more i level my weapons. The higher my weapons skill are the lower the amount of magazines i find for other skills. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[BenZ0]

2 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@BenZ0 That works if they wanna use the same weapons that i use. If they wanna use different ones, they have to go looting themselves a lot more than they do now. None of us looters does use rifles or the sledgehammer. Our builder loves them. That´s gonna be a problem because i won´t find a lot of rifle/sledgehammer magazines as i am not specced into them. And that gets worse and worse the more i level my weapon. The higher my weapon skill is the lower is the amount of magazines i find for other skills. 

Idk if I missed that but I didnt saw anything about the chances of other magazines are getting reduced, you will still find sledgehammer magazines and keep bringing them home. Yes you are right that it would be slower then if they would go loot themselves then but that is I would say the price for missing out with one of the biggest features and focuses of the game. You cannot make it right for any person with specific tastes. But ye with what you mentioned it would be better then that if you learn all the magazines in that case and just craft the tools/weapons for them. I dont see a big issue with that tbh, its not perfect yes but it isnt a disaster either if you ask me.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@BenZ0 You need to put skillpoints in the weapon skill to find more magazines for it. That´s the limiting factor here. I need to be a jack of all trades to provide everyone magazines who doesn´t enjoy fighting and looting. Wich means i can´t play the way i like to play anymore. No matter how you do it, someone has to take the bad pill and do things he doesn´t like to.

 

And no you can´t make it right for everyone, but taking away the freedom of choice for how i wanna play a game is simply bad game design imo.

[BenZ0]

2 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@BenZ0 You need to put skillpoints in the weapon skill to find more magazines for it. That´s the limiting factor here. I need to be a jack of all trades to provide everyone magazines who doesn´t enjoy fighting and looting. Wich means i can´t play the way i like to play anymore. No matter how you do it, someone has to take the bad pill and do things he doesn´t like to.

 

And no you can´t make it right for everyone, but taking away the freedom of choice for how i wanna play a game is simply bad game design imo.

I see I didnt know about the skill point thing here, thats good to know. I agree that someone has to take the pill, but I wouldnt brush it off as bad game design tbh. The point if this crafting rework is that you have a more fluid progression with your crafting upgrades and also to take away the need to skill in many things at the same time. Its natural that something that big comes to an cost of something else. I guess we just have to wait and see, maybe the devs will come up with a solution till then. I can imagine that the devs have this already in mind while designing this and therefore where watching out of the loot increase for the skill so it isnt required. I mean thats the whole point of this new system you know, that you are not required to skill into things.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@ArmoredStone I forgot who and where exactly, but someone from the team said that the plan is A21, A22 and then Beta if everything works out as planned, if not there might be A23 also.

 

@BenZ0 Nothing against a more fluid gameplay, but not at the cost of reducing the ways to play the game, the freedom you have is one of the biggest things that makes this game so good. If they wanted really fluid gameplay they would have sticked to learning by doing and would have fine tuned it over the years instead of removing it in A17.

 

You need to take skill points to find more recipes. That´s the whole problem here. If it wouldn´t cost skillpoints to gather more magazines, this wouldn´t be a problem for miners/builders. I could just loot the magazines for them without having to invest points for it.

 

This system will also lead to looting bookstores heavily. Every game, no matter wich playstyle you choose will focus on finding bookstores. This change will make them the most importnant building in the whole game. You will see bookstores over and over again, the system forces you to do so. Wich will lead to a whole bunch of problems on public servers.

Edited May 22, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Book stores will be hot targets as well.  😎

Hopefully they'll become book stores and not paper stores. There's a reason I nicknamed the book shops "Lack-A-Book."

[BenZ0]

5 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@ArmoredStone I forgot who and where exactly, but someone from the team said that the plan is A21, A22 and then Beta if everything works out as planned, if not there might be A23 also.

 

@BenZ0 Nothing against a more fluid gameplay, but not at the cost of reducing the ways to play the game, the freedom you have is one of the biggest things that makes this game so good. If they wanted really fluid gameplay they would have sticked to learning by doing and would have fine tuned it over the years.

 

You need to take skill points to find more recipes. That´s the whole problem here. If it wouldn´t cost skillpoints to gather more magazines, this wouldn´t be a problem for miners/builders. I could just loot the magazines for them without having to invest points for it.

 

This system will also lead to looting bookstores heavily. Every game, no matter wich playstyle you choose will focus on finding bookstores. This change will make them the most importnant building in the whole game. You will see bookstores over and over again, the system forces you to do so.

Ye I do get your point here and I think you are onto something. Keep in mind though that they just announced it atm, it isnt even out in the game yet. Not like the devs are going to drop it without a second look on it thats just what I am saying. I am also kinda worried about this whole new thing since I am someone who hates changes usually, gotta hope for the best I guess.

[Oliwhere]

32 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@BenZ0 You need to put skillpoints in the weapon skill to find more magazines for it. That´s the limiting factor here. I need to be a jack of all trades to provide everyone magazines who doesn´t enjoy fighting and looting. Wich means i can´t play the way i like to play anymore. No matter how you do it, someone has to take the bad pill and do things he doesn´t like to.

 

And no you can´t make it right for everyone, but taking away the freedom of choice for how i wanna play a game is simply bad game design imo.

 

From what I understood, they said that the magazines will also be available from the traders as quest rewards and offer them for sale. For their trading inventory, I would asume, that all magazines are equally likely to appear for sale.

So you could still do your looting / questing / fighting and then after visiting the trader, buy some magazines for your friends skills from the excess dukes you made. Probably the leveling for your friends at home base won't be as fast, but they could still get to the point of leveling their own specialization's crafting skill over time.

 

[Roland]

I know it is human nature to fear the worst case scenario but you guys can relax a bit. Your fears are unfounded. You find a wide variety of magazines all the time. What you perk into shows up a bit more often but it isn’t overwhelming. 
 

There is nothing that I have witnessed to make me think that I’m getting other mags less because I perked into archery. If someone is the primary looter they will bring home plenty of mags outside of their perks. 
 

Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying. Book stores will definitely be treasure troves of lost knowledge but….what’s wrong with that?  Seems logical. I would even say that when a book store is found, the entire team could gather to go through and split up the book shelves. I can’t imagine anyone hating looting so fiercely that they wouldn’t share in the spoils of a bookstore.

 

This change won’t be everyone’s cup of tea obviously but I think a good number of people will find it fun and fresh. 

[fyiiamaheavy]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

I know it is human nature to fear the worst case scenario but you guys can relax a bit. Your fears are unfounded. You find a wide variety of magazines all the time. What you perk into shows up a bit more often but it isn’t overwhelming. 
 

There is nothing that I have witnessed to make me think that I’m getting other mags less because I perked into archery. If someone is the primary looter they will bring home plenty of mags outside of their perks. 
 

Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying. Book stores will definitely be treasure troves of lost knowledge but….what’s wrong with that?  Seems logical. I would even say that when a book store is found, the entire team could gather to go through and split up the book shelves. I can’t imagine anyone hating looting so fiercely that they wouldn’t share in the spoils of a bookstore.

 

This change won’t be everyone’s cup of tea obviously but I think a good number of people will find it fun and fresh. 

I actually like the way it sounds and can't wait to get my hands on it. Book stores are skippable in alpha 20 and a complete joke because Paper everyone and its hard to get books. So both these changes one major and one semi major is Needed

[Matt115]

Just now, Roland said:

I know it is human nature to fear the worst case scenario but you guys can relax a bit. Your fears are unfounded. You find a wide variety of magazines all the time. What you perk into shows up a bit more often but it isn’t overwhelming. 
 

There is nothing that I have witnessed to make me think that I’m getting other mags less because I perked into archery. If someone is the primary looter they will bring home plenty of mags outside of their perks. 
 

Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying. Book stores will definitely be treasure troves of lost knowledge but….what’s wrong with that?  Seems logical. I would even say that when a book store is found, the entire team could gather to go through and split up the book shelves. I can’t imagine anyone hating looting so fiercely that they wouldn’t share in the spoils of a bookstore.

 

This change won’t be everyone’s cup of tea obviously but I think a good number of people will find it fun and fresh. 

Roland... how many times i was thinking about worst case scenario and i was right about that?

What's wrong with that? Honestly as you say "Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying.". For logical point of view paper drops are.... just pages from not neccesary books --> your character don't need romance, fantasy novel or scifi book right? 

"Book stores will definitely be treasure troves of lost knowledge" - if you would use just logic... 99% of books in typical book store is not usefull during zombie apocalypse. So this would be strange if you found 20 diffrent books about guns, 10 about making tools etc, it would be probably --> 50 diffrent books about food, old computer proggraming book and tons of useless books.

[Laz Man]

33 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

Hopefully they'll become book stores and not paper stores. There's a reason I nicknamed the book shops "Lack-A-Book."

 

Let me rephrase that.  Magazine stores will be hot targets as well....😆

[Oliwhere]

4 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Let me rephrase that.  Magazine stores will be hot targets as well....😆

 

So all the paper we have been looting so far was actually printed, but we just haven't been smart enough yet to decipher it? 😉