Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Adam the Waster]

Tbh this game has lightly evolved into a questing looter shooter and a dungeon crawler but the game Is so many hybrids of different things 

 

What dungeon crawlers allows you to just cheat, or turn it into a base into it 

[Laz Man]

Game is still being balanced.  Expect crafting / looting / survival to continue to evolve.  The new character armor sets will be the next big addition that shakes up the balance of it all.

[Old Crow]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Game is still being balanced.  Expect crafting / looting / survival to continue to evolve.  The new character armor sets will be the next big addition that shakes up the balance of it all.

 

Are those still at least coming in A22? If not, A22 is going to be very boring.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

It’s the survival horde crafting game. Says so right at the top of the page. 

I think a plurality of all discussion on this site boils down to what kind of game people think this is or should be. Which is fine for a game that, after all, is A) a sandbox and B) in alpha. It’s telling that you didn’t even mention survival, which I personally want to be a priority, while you did list farming and mining, which I consider to be... things you can do, if you want to.

 

I'm well aware of the tagline to the title of the game. In my opinion, this game is still just as much survival and crafting and horde as it ever has been. It is easy for players to stretch those things out of proportion via min/maxing behavior but the game absolutely does not have to be played that way outside of competitive PvP public servers. Even if someone feels like looting is a requirement during the early game that definitely tapers off as the game goes on and more time can be spent doing other activities so that an entire playthrough taken as a whole is still very much a mix of everything it has always been.

 

I'm not the type to want to start a petition and start litigation if the final game doesn't exactly deliver survival, crafting, and hordes in equal measure and as the top three main pillars of the game. That's why I didn't mention survival explicitly in my meme. All of those components mentioned are part of and contribute to survival anyway.

 

My point is that while it says survival horde crafting game, in reality the game is a mix of many activities and some specific activities will dominate in importance at different phases of a playthrough and some specific activities can be ignored while others cannot be ignored but they all contribute to surviving against the horde of zombies.

 

 

8 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

Not even offer an option - just do it. Or no gear via quest rewards, so crafting is more worth it. Let Rank 6 gear be available through looting high level POIs or something.

 

I think you'd be surprised at how many people love the OP trader rewards. WE know they kill the crafting game but that's because most users of this forum value crafting as the preferred method of attaining our own gear. They could force the nerf and do some other things to throttle down the significance of questing in this game and there will be a @%$#storm about it from all the people who love A21 and "never asked the pimps to overhaul questing in such an idiotic and unrealistic fashion obviously trying to lengthen the game in a hamfisted artificial manner..."

 

Seems to me to be a perfect situation for some options so that those who love the current balance and prefer earning rewards and trading for top gear to crafting it themselves can still have what they want. If TFP just makes the change I'll be happy with it but there will be some who will call TFP anti-player or some such nonsense...

Edited October 30, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

9 hours ago, Old Crow said:

so crafting is more worth it. Let Rank 6 gear be available through looting high level POIs or something.

Good example.

TFP turned away from that, explicitly because they didn't want players to "sit comfy at home and craft all the stuff they want",

but wanted to encourage to go out and loot.

 

But the game always already relied heavily enough on looting, you always had to go out to get the resources you need, or the books for the skills/perks,

and all the other loot-only items.

 

Many decisions that were made recently just focussed the already existing focus another additional bit.

 

people aren't encouraged to go looting, they're forced to do so.

 

I'm fine with that playstyle,

but I can absolutely understand people who express their opinion that it has developed a bit too much into that direction now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, Old Crow said:

Are those still at least coming in A22? If not, A22 is going to be very boring.

 

Before A22 release:

Spoiler

 

After A22 release:

Spoiler

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I've watched the the interview with Guns Nerds and Steel. "and others" Admittedly a few times. The main things I came away with referred to. One of my first posts, The Funpipmps attempted to condense an MRI volume of data into a 3d video game. While still maintaining play-ability, "High Hopes", using the now antiquated hardware of the time. I actually upgraded my pc based on wanting to play this game.

 

It would have killed the hardware back then, to the point of being shelved, and it did for many.

 

The first draw for me, to the game, was that it was Open.

 

By this I mean, open to individual interpretation, playstyles, genre mashups, customization, etc.

It prompted me to go to the great Wikipedia and look up game genre. That's one of the main reasons I still like the game, I want to see the extent and lengths to which they will go to add to a dream.

 

Near the end of one of the videos, Joel expressed, and I'm paraphrasing, that this was partially his dream and goal. He looked at the games being produced by the mainstream production companies, and wanted to create, a masterpiece of playtime entertainment. That would rival their limited singular genre focus. Sort or a monkey wrench in the works, to show the possibilities. And maybe inspire, them to keep up or follow suit. Also to show all of this from an indie company position.

 

If all of the things added to the game had been left in, and the game had been completed in a singular Alpha to gold back then it would have probably been a great "unknown and forgotten" work. Go to steam, pick a game title, gameplay,  youtube it from first iteration to its completion.

 

The things I see from the background, ten years equals multiple generations, hardware\software\engine advancements,changing public focus\opinion on what's popular or fun, and in a singular phrase "May I please have some more sir please".

 

Do I like all of the changes, no, but I have the option, to play prior versions, adjust parameters to my preference, and once I learn Harmony rewrite the scripted game play.

 

I really don't think that they expected to expand as much as it has, but there was always that possibility. Open Pandora's box or rub the genie's lamp and you can't put it back. They no longer had to compete with other games, just the forum of opinion, and extensibility of modding opportunity.

 

It will never be perfect, but I have not seen any other games that have tried to be this expansive "yet". So to the Funpimps I say, "Dream on" and paraphrasing their tag line "que sera sera".

[Morloc]

4 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Translating
R'LYEHIAN - Detected
 

I've watched an interview with Guns Nerds and Steel, and others, multiple times. What stood out to me were the main takeaways. In one of my earlier posts, I discussed The Funpipmps' endeavor to turn a large amount of MRI data into a 3D video game called "High Hopes." They managed to maintain playability, even on outdated hardware. I was so excited about this project that I upgraded my PC to play the game.
 

At the time, "High Hopes" would have pushed the limits of the hardware available, to the point of causing it to be put on hold, disappointing many.

The game's first attraction for me was its openness. By this, I mean it allowed for individual interpretation, various playstyles, genre combinations, and customization.
 

My interest in the game led me to research different game genres on Wikipedia, which is one of the main reasons I continue to enjoy it. I'm eager to see how far they will go to bring their vision to life.
 

Towards the end of one of the videos, Joel expressed, in my own words, that creating this game was partly his dream and goal. He aimed to compete with mainstream production companies by creating a masterpiece of entertainment that offered more than just a single genre. This was like a disruptive force that aimed to showcase the possibilities and perhaps inspire other companies to follow suit, all from an indie developer's perspective.

If all the content added to the game had been preserved, and the game had been completed from alpha to gold back then, it might have become a forgotten gem. Picture it like this: go to Steam, pick a game, watch its gameplay, and see it evolve from its initial version to the final product.
 

Over the years, there have been significant changes – new generations of hardware, software, and engine advancements, shifts in public preferences, and the constant desire for more. It's like saying, "May I have some more, please?"
 

Do I like all the changes? Not necessarily, but I have the option to play earlier versions, adjust settings to my liking, and, once I understand the game mechanics, modify the scripted gameplay.
 

I don't believe they anticipated such significant expansion, but the possibility was always there. It's like opening Pandora's box or rubbing the genie's lamp – once it's done, you can't undo it. They no longer had to compete with other games; they just needed to navigate the realm of public opinion and the opportunities for modding.
 

It may never be perfect, but I haven't seen any other games attempt to be this expansive yet. So, to the Funpimps, I say, "Keep dreaming," and in the spirit of their tagline, "que sera sera" – whatever will be, will be.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[meganoth]

29 minutes ago, Morloc said:

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

 

Thanks Morloc, the first time ever that I can completely decipher a posting from sheets 😉

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

@Morloc

 

Is that your trans or an AI. Either way, it was real close. 

 

Great reference.

Cthulhu

R'lyehian is a fictional language spoken by ancient cosmic dieties (the Great Old Ones, see F'igure 1) in Lovecraft's 1926 short story Call of Cthulhu [7] and in his later work. Below is an example sentence in R'lyehian: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

 

Now i know why I'm misunderstood so often. 🤣

 

The only missing piece of the puzzle was the end. "Dream On" was my reference to the lyrics from Aerosmith's song.

4Sheetz

 

[Morloc]

12 minutes ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Is that your trans or an AI. Either way, it was real close. 

 

Good ole' ChatGPT with a few instructions.

It's probably my very tired brain this morning, but I read your post like 3 times and still couldn't wrap my head around (all of) it.

 

Thanks for having a sense of humor. 😀

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[XCOUNTRY]

I think you can help balance out the OP quest rewards or finding gear that is above your current crafting skill level by making it impossible to repair until the player is at that skill level. They can use it til it breaks and then they have the choice to hang onto it until they can repair or try to find another or craft a lower quality version.

[Arez]

1 hour ago, XCOUNTRY said:

making it impossible to repair until the player is at that skill level.

I'm playing a mod that has that. It's called the Winchester mod. It's very good. You can't repair until you reach a certain level, and repaired items drop in quality level. It's an interesting dynamic. I had to repair a piece of armor that had a pocket mod. It dropped in quality which also got rid of the modifier slot which equaled "no more pocket mod". 

[Riamus]

Everyone plays the game differently, whether solo or MP.  For me, the people I play with enjoy working together.  No one cares who loots just because of their loot bonus or magazine bonuses.  No one cares if they are low level versus high level... we share gear, so a low level is going to be sporting the same good gear as the high level, with any exception due to low stamina that may make them hold off on certain things until they level a little bit (but that tapers off very early in the game, so isn't a real issue).  If anything, the one thing that is different for the lower level player is how fast they can kill (we don't really care) and how difficult a team quest is if the team is very different in levels (a level 5 playing with a level 50 will likely die a lot more than if they were all level 5), but that's just additional challenge and not something we care about either.  But that is our group.

 

Many people play with strangers and many play with people who they know, but who they also know aren't good at working together.  In those cases, you're going to have more complaints about unbalanced levels between players.  And, of course, there are those who complain just because they aren't the "best" player, which I find really off-putting.  In the end, some people are going to be fine with level imbalances between players and some will not.

 

Whether it's important to limit the reasons why there are imbalances is really just opinion.  I don't think it's enough of an issue that it really needs much time put into trying to keep people at the same level, especially when you're likely to be at very different levels anyhow if you're playing with strangers (the main group who would be complaining about this) because you're most likely not all playing the same amount of time each day.

 

And who's to say that the person playing 1/2 the amount of time as everyone else isn't also the person who is leveling more quickly because of min/max and so ends up rather balanced with the others?  In that situation, a change that making min/max less valuable will actually create more disparity in the levels of that group because that person who plays less hours will fall behind instead of keeping up by leveling faster.  So any "fix" you use can have the opposite effect in some situations and not matter in others.  I think it's just better to leave it as-is regarding level balancing.

 

As far as the tagline to the game, the tagline does not in any way indicate how much of the game each of those things is.  It just indicates that those things are part of the game.  Is the game survival?  Yes, though minimally unless you count possibly dying from zombies as being survival, which most people wouldn't count).  Is the game a horde game?  Yes, every blood moon.  Is the game a crafting game?  Yes, though the amount you will craft will vary greatly from player to player for many reasons.  Is the game other things?  Absolutely, and this isn't a bad thing.

 

Yes, looting is a main aspect of the game.  It isn't the only thing, but it's a main thing.  But if you were in a real life situation like this, looting/scavenging would be a major means of survival, right?  People like to limit "survival" to food and drink and perhaps a few other things like medical issues and don't want to admit that in a real life situation, they'd need to be looting and scavenging in order to survive.  That is just as much part of a survival game as having to eat or drink.  And considering many people calling the game looter shooter and still pointing out that tagline are people who say they want to be a miner or builder, you might do that in a real life survival situation, but it would be very limited compared to other things (including looting).  Most "building" would be limited to finding shelter and boarding up doors and windows and blocking access instead of really building stuff.  And any mining is going to be extremely limited because a person on their own isn't going to really have the expertise or ability to make use of mined ore and even in a very large group, that need for that will generally be very low.  Any crafting of stuff that uses things like iron would be done with scavenged stuff instead because it's far easier to work with and far easier to obtain.  Yes, this is a game and so gameplay trumps realism, but that doesn't negate the fact that looting/scavenging is a big part of survival.

 

I'd be very interested in seeing stats on how much (or little) crafting each player is doing in an average A21 playthrough compared to what they did in an average A20 playthrough (for those who played in A20).  I know I craft more than I used to, though it is still minimal (but for reasons other than most people who aren't crafting a lot).  I know a couple others have said they are crafting more as well.  The goal in A21 with magazines (whether you like how they were set up or not or whether you think they work or not) was to increase crafting.  So all the complaints that they are trying to make looting more important and crafting less important are not really accurate.  Maybe they failed miserably with magazines (I used to like them, but have come to think they just aren't a good system at all), but that doesn't change the fact that they were trying to make crafting happen more often.  And, for at least some players (and likely many players), they are crafting more.  Just maybe not much more.  That would indicate that they are going in the right direction and just need to either fix the issues with magazines and crafting that is still limiting people or come up with some other system.  Not that they are trying to be looting only and are nixing crafting.

 

And just in case anyone wonders why I don't craft much since I said it was for a different reason than most people, it's not the magazines or the loot or quest rewards that keep me from crafting much.  It's the recipe costs.  If they were the same as in A20, I'd be crafting a lot more than I do now.  But I just can't be bothered with spending time making thousands of duct tape (and getting the materials to do so) just to make something.  I'd rather wait to get the item from looting than to spend time with crafting, even if it might take more time overall to do so.  And other changes to the recipes has also made me less interested in crafting compared to what I'd be if the recipes were still A20 recipes.  Even so, I am still crafting more than I did in A20.  But also keep in mind that I'm not someone who finds enjoyment in crafting.  I do it in games and I appreciate what I can craft in games, but the act of crafting is "work" and not really what I consider actual fun.  It gets me what I need and can be useful and helpful, but it isn't the fun in the game for me.  So my view on crafting isn't going to be the same as others.

[meilodasreh]

2 hours ago, Arez said:

repaired items drop in quality level.

That used to be the case in former alphas. I liked that too.

Iirc it was abandoned in A16(?). Before that you had quality levels 1-600 or so, and each time you repaired an item it dropped a few levels. 

Also, weapons were combined out of parts, and each part had its own quality level, so changing one part for a better one made the whole thing better.

I don't quite remember how it worked exactly, maybe I'm even mixing stuff up a little.

 

But I definitely liked that gun parts thingy. That initially brought be to DF, where this does still apply, along with the "repair but quality loss".

But you also have the option to repair and even "upgrade" (raise quality) by combining two weapons of the same kind.

 

I hope that "upgrade" mechanics is somehow adapted to vanilla.

I think it would benefit the system a lot.

People are even more encouraged to get out and loot (which is what TFP intend), but also it would address those who complain that the best stuff is "loot-only", when it would be allowed to combine let's say three identical quality6 weapons into a q7 one. (maybe even then 10 of these to an end level 8, must not be infinitely raisable of course)

That would be quite rewarding for the crafters, when they can say "hey it was hell of a grind to find these, but now I can craft that thing that can never be found".

 

I'm sure that kind of system has its downsides too, just as every system that was, is and maybe will be there, has its pros and cons.

So, just expressing my thoughts here, no need for "no because..." responses. I know there are.

Edited October 31, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Arez]

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

That used to be the case in former alphas. I liked that too.

I like it. I'm obsessed with the game so I welcome the added difficulty. But one of my friends I play with isn't obsessed, so when we play the mod together we have the repair degradation option off - though I insisted on bumping the difficulty up to at least Nomad and having it headshots-only. 

 

One thing I did notice, since the mod combines learn-by-reading with learn-by-doing, I'm kinda able to cheese the degradation system a little by simply scrapping the broken weapon and crafting a new one, which always ends up being a higher quality level than the previous one. 

 

It's gonna get interesting though when I get to better weapons.

[zztong]

14 hours ago, Arez said:

You can't repair until you reach a certain level, and repaired items drop in quality level. It's an interesting dynamic.

 

I could see doing a variation on that. That is...

 

You can repair any item.

If the item's level is more than one greater than the level you can craft, then decrease the item's level.

 

Example: I might be able to craft a quality level 3 shotgun and maintain a level 4 shotgun. Any level 5 or 6 level shotguns I repair would lose a level after they were repaired.

 

In this way, a character that can craft a level 5 item could maintain a level 6 item. Items would degrade, but only to a point that matched your ability to maintain them.

 

 

[Adam the Waster]

5 hours ago, zztong said:

 

I could see doing a variation on that. That is...

 

You can repair any item.

If the item's level is more than one greater than the level you can craft, then decrease the item's level.

 

Example: I might be able to craft a quality level 3 shotgun and maintain a level 4 shotgun. Any level 5 or 6 level shotguns I repair would lose a level after they were repaired.

 

In this way, a character that can craft a level 5 item could maintain a level 6 item. Items would degrade, but only to a point that matched your ability to maintain them.

 

 

That would be better or like what the other guy said.  Unable to repair something unless you know how to build it. 

 

Or Make the cost more where you need parts. Repair kits are just so easy. Then again with stuff like augers it's a godsend 

 

 

Happy Halloween Pimps! Make sure you steal your lazy neighbors candy and don't drink snowdogs koolaid

[HB_H4wk]

Make it a challenge, say a zombies hits you in the head with their hand you are injured on that side of your face for a day or so and can only see out of one eye.

[Old Crow]

3 hours ago, HB_H4wk said:

Make it a challenge, say a zombies hits you in the head with their hand you are injured on that side of your face for a day or so and can only see out of one eye.

 

Knowing this game, the zombie would hit you in the head and you'd get a broken foot.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

If I had a few suggestion for the code monkeys on the team, would posting it here take any notice? Is there a better place to mention some stuff about Unity.
Not trying to tell you guys what to do, that is your call. Just some suggestions if someone wants to look at it.

I will post it anyways and if there is a better home for the post, maybe a mod can shift it or direct me to whom I should speak with?

I have been looking through the Assembly-CSharp.dll file for the game and noticed someone has written FindObjectsOfType() in various classes
This is known to be very slow for Unity to run. There is an alternative that is faster. GameObject.FindGameObjectsWithTag()

My suggestion would be to only use this during game initialization. Avoid it at all costs or use the alternative if you have to.

An entity object pool can be setup for the Transforms to handle the spawn and unloading of players, falling trees, falling blocks, items and all other world based entity such as the zombies. I setup one in tests for an optimizer I am working on. You can set limits on the pool size and unity has a built in pool system. UnityEngine.Pools can be referenced inside a class for use. I made my own with a queue and use the entity type as a way to sort the game objects. The one stage of the entity spawn with instantiation went from 0.04 down to 0.004 with the use of the pool so the impact on bloodmoon spawns, sleepers and players joining a server should all benefit tremendously. Falling blocks, falling trees also benefit from it. Even if you dont implement it for all of them, a transform object pool for falling blocks or zombies would make a big difference. It is already done for chunk allocations. This also has the benefit of reduced garbage collection.

The last one is a little bit weird. Order of operations. If you have to multiply a few things such as a vector and some floats, placing the floats first in the equation is almost twice as fast. Unity recommends this.

Happy Halloween

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, Obsessive Compulsive said:

If I had a few suggestion for the code monkeys on the team, would posting it here take any notice? Is there a better place to mention some stuff about Unity.
Not trying to tell you guys what to do, that is your call. Just some suggestions if someone wants to look at it.

I will post it anyways and if there is a better home for the post, maybe a mod can shift it or direct me to whom I should speak with?

I have been looking through the Assembly-CSharp.dll file for the game and noticed someone has written FindObjectsOfType() in various classes
This is known to be very slow for Unity to run. There is an alternative that is faster. GameObject.FindGameObjectsWithTag()

My suggestion would be to only use this during game initialization. Avoid it at all costs or use the alternative if you have to.

An entity object pool can be setup for the Transforms to handle the spawn and unloading of players, falling trees, falling blocks, items and all other world based entity such as the zombies. I setup one in tests for an optimizer I am working on. You can set limits on the pool size and unity has a built in pool system. UnityEngine.Pools can be referenced inside a class for use. I made my own with a queue and use the entity type as a way to sort the game objects. The one stage of the entity spawn with instantiation went from 0.04 down to 0.004 with the use of the pool so the impact on bloodmoon spawns, sleepers and players joining a server should all benefit tremendously. Falling blocks, falling trees also benefit from it. Even if you dont implement it for all of them, a transform object pool for falling blocks or zombies would make a big difference. It is already done for chunk allocations. This also has the benefit of reduced garbage collection.

The last one is a little bit weird. Order of operations. If you have to multiply a few things such as a vector and some floats, placing the floats first in the equation is almost twice as fast. Unity recommends this.

Happy Halloween

I don't understand most of the stuff you said (not a programmer)... but you seem to be on to something here! 

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Obsessive Compulsive said:

If I had a few suggestion for the code monkeys on the team, would posting it here take any notice? Is there a better place to mention some stuff about Unity.
Not trying to tell you guys what to do, that is your call. Just some suggestions if someone wants to look at it.

I will post it anyways and if there is a better home for the post, maybe a mod can shift it or direct me to whom I should speak with?

I have been looking through the Assembly-CSharp.dll file for the game and noticed someone has written FindObjectsOfType() in various classes
This is known to be very slow for Unity to run. There is an alternative that is faster. GameObject.FindGameObjectsWithTag()

My suggestion would be to only use this during game initialization. Avoid it at all costs or use the alternative if you have to.

An entity object pool can be setup for the Transforms to handle the spawn and unloading of players, falling trees, falling blocks, items and all other world based entity such as the zombies. I setup one in tests for an optimizer I am working on. You can set limits on the pool size and unity has a built in pool system. UnityEngine.Pools can be referenced inside a class for use. I made my own with a queue and use the entity type as a way to sort the game objects. The one stage of the entity spawn with instantiation went from 0.04 down to 0.004 with the use of the pool so the impact on bloodmoon spawns, sleepers and players joining a server should all benefit tremendously. Falling blocks, falling trees also benefit from it. Even if you dont implement it for all of them, a transform object pool for falling blocks or zombies would make a big difference. It is already done for chunk allocations. This also has the benefit of reduced garbage collection.

The last one is a little bit weird. Order of operations. If you have to multiply a few things such as a vector and some floats, placing the floats first in the equation is almost twice as fast. Unity recommends this.

Happy Halloween

 

@faatal reads this thread occaisonally, he will see this eventually and he will know if it fits with their plans or not.

 

 

[RipClaw]

10 hours ago, HB_H4wk said:

Make it a challenge, say a zombies hits you in the head with their hand you are injured on that side of your face for a day or so and can only see out of one eye.

Honestly, I would mod something like that right out of the game. For me, the blurred vision is bad enough when you bleed, and that effect only lasts a few seconds. Going a whole day with only one eye would be unbearable.
 

[Fanatical_Meat]

7 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

Knowing this game, the zombie would hit you in the head and you'd get a broken foot.

Nah you’d get blurred vision for 90 minutes but you’d get tired of having blurred vision after 3 minutes, stow all your gear and go on a suicide run or jump from a tower.

BAM! Vision now fixed.