Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[iamnuff]

6 hours ago, spacepiggio said:

Yea...it didn't take long for me to figure out water & food updates & I didn't have a struggle with anything but the water filter. You have to buy it & my play style usually ignores the Trader after the beginning quest. I usually play a Nomad survival theme & live off the land mining & scavenging plus you are constantly fixing fortifications for hordes so I don't have time for quests.

 

 

Personally i've been running a game in which me and my buddy grab a quest each, knock them both out (thus getting us two rewards each) and then take two more before going back to base for the night.

We build/upgrade/repair at night and loot/quest during the day. 

 

You get plenty of loot by raiding the building that your quest is at, and the quest-reward loot tends to be REALLY good. Either a crate full of skillbooks or occasionally just a full weapon a full tier ahead of what you can make yourself. (I could make Tier 1 iron knives when the dude just gave me a Tier 4 machete, which i've been using ever since) sometimes they fork over workbenches (forges, chemstations) or stuff like a Beaker, which might be hard to find on your own. 

 

Plus, doing enough quests to get sent on a trade-routes mission gets you a bicycle early on and will quickly lead you to all the other traders (now that they have diffrent stock, it's important to know where they all are.) 

 

TLDR: Pay more attention to traders. Getting a quest to raid a POI that you already want to raid anyway is basically like getting paid twice. And that's without even accounting for dukes and exp that you get as a quest reward.

Use the dukes to clear the trader out of whatever skillbooks are relevant to you and you're basically getting paid three times.

This does require setting up a base near a useful trader though. I've noticed that the guy in the pine forest always seems to have cook and toolbooks, which are nice. 

The guy in the snowzone (in standard-gen navaz) seems to have gun-stuff and Jen obviously has medical books.

 

They're cheap too.

If you set up near Jen and do quests for her, you can probably learn how to make first-aid bandages in a day.

That's not bad at all. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by iamnuff (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

On 6/17/2023 at 4:21 PM, Neminsis said:

It's not about leveling quickly on crafting magazines but being able to level at all. What exactly do you find extreme about miner 69er and Motherload given that you really don't need them at all since you're just going to be out constantly looting and will be able loot or buy more than enough resources to build the bare minimum base on top of some roof somewhere? Are those perks there just for RPing or some late game vanity project? Why even bother putting them into the game at all?

What exactly do you find so extreme about allowing primary resource gatherers the ability to buy books from the trader without having to take time away from their chosen profession to go do gopher jobs for a trader that's going to make the necessity of those books moot by offering to sell you what you want regardless?

This isn't about extremes, this is a basic economic balance issue given that crafting books, exp, and dukes are all part of the game's economy, and heavily favors one tree in particular. 

 

My comment was geared towards those that ignore game mechanics (i.e. removing POIs or just staying home building a base) but expect the game to be balanced towards those playstyles.  Learning by Reading, you have multiple options to get the various crafting magazines to progress - loot POIs, purchase from traders, quest rewards, air drops.  But if you remove most or all of those options while you are playing, it is not up to TFP to change the game to meet your playstyle, that is up to the player to mod the game.

 

I have not once perked into Daring Adventure or Better Barter in both of my playthroughs (and really not planning to).  I spec into both combat perks (knives, bows, pistols, stealth, etc) and first level utility perks (cooking, LoTL, salvage, mining, physician, etc) to survive as a lone player.  And I haven't spent one minute thinking about Int players being strong with traders or Str players being strong with mining and melee combat.  I work with the strengths of my build playstyle and counter any weaknesses that I have compared to other builds.

 

People play all the time without traders and have a great time doing so.  They might have to change things because of that choice (for example, making solar panels a loot item or crafting recipe).  You can choose not to visit any trader at all or just use them for basic supplies.  Nobody is forcing anyone to use traders in this game.  Heck, some people have removed all POIs from the game - but in those cases, if you removed those elements, you reduced where you can find crafting magazines; and it is up to you to figure out how to bring those elements back into the game.

 

7D2D is a great game where you have different ways you can play the game, but no game out there allows for infinite ways to play it.  Every game has restrictions in it, no matter where they are on the Sandbox scale.

[iamnuff]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

My comment was geared towards those that ignore game mechanics (i.e. removing POIs or just staying home building a base) but expect the game to be balanced towards those playstyles.  Learning by Reading, you have multiple options to get the various crafting magazines to progress - loot POIs, purchase from traders, quest rewards, air drops.  But if you remove most or all of those options while you are playing, it is not up to TFP to change the game to meet your playstyle, that is up to the player to mod the game.

 

I have not once perked into Daring Adventure or Better Barter in both of my playthroughs (and really not planning to).  I spec into both combat perks (knives, bows, pistols, stealth, etc) and first level utility perks (cooking, LoTL, salvage, mining, physician, etc) to survive as a lone player.  And I haven't spent one minute thinking about Int players being strong with traders or Str players being strong with mining and melee combat.  I work with the strengths of my build playstyle and counter any weaknesses that I have compared to other builds.

 

People play all the time without traders and have a great time doing so.  They might have to change things because of that choice (for example, making solar panels a loot item or crafting recipe).  You can choose not to visit any trader at all or just use them for basic supplies.  Nobody is forcing anyone to use traders in this game.  Heck, some people have removed all POIs from the game - but in those cases, if you removed those elements, you reduced where you can find crafting magazines; and it is up to you to figure out how to bring those elements back into the game.

 

7D2D is a great game where you have different ways you can play the game, but no game out there allows for infinite ways to play it.  Every game has restrictions in it, no matter where they are on the Sandbox scale.

 

Personally i'd suggest making solar panels lootable. Or rather, make them harvestable at a low rate from destroyed solar banks.

Have Salvage skill give you better odds of getting them and/or getting better quality, like batteries from cars but rarer. (because destroyed Solar Banks are rare in and of themselves)

 

On that note: The new generators. The big ones with the Mo' Power signs on them? 

Yeah they need tuning up. Salvaging them with a wrench gives very little. It feels like they have decent loot in them (iron, brass, ect) but spread out over way too much Durability.

Like how military trucks used to be before this patch where they'd give the same loot as a car, but take 10x as many swings of your wrench to get it.

[Aldranon]

8 hours ago, ScipioAsmodean said:

 

The only problem we have with Alpha 21 is this. So simply waiting is the solution? Is the source of the problem already known? (e.g. high percentage of hills/Mountains?)

 

I have built maps with no hills or mountains, and it hangs for maybe a couple minutes at 84% on road smoothing.

[Roland]

Really, the only problem with Road Smoothing is that there is no visual representation that it is progressing. Overall, even with the slowness of road smoothing, maps are generating faster in A21. If players could see that it was making progress it would end all the worry that the game is frozen. 

[Slingblade2040]

So did a clear quest at the pass and gas refinery kinda sure it was a tier 3 and was going mental as to why the hell i couldn't find the last few zombies and it turns out I had to walk through a path near the roof that leads to the giant tankers to make them spawn in. Also no the little yellow dot didn't show up it only showed for some vulture on top of the tanker which i used a different method to get to.

 

Can these triggers be reworked or something? Also can we please get some more option settings? Would love for wandering hordes to actually feel like a wandering horde. Like maybe let it be set for size like we do for blood moons. Just a pain having to install mods or edit files for simple QoL stuff.

[LostBoy]

10 hours ago, ScipioAsmodean said:

 

The only problem we have with Alpha 21 is this. So simply waiting is the solution? Is the source of the problem already known? (e.g. high percentage of hills/Mountains?)

 

There are two ways to generate a World.

 

I've used both in the first two releases so far and it does stall for awhile in the 8x% area (road smoothing), but does finishing after a little bit.

 

I have a fairly new machine (i7 13700k, 32 GB, 4070Ti) and it takes me about 5 - 10 minutes to do a 10k Map.

 

I've seen a few people doing 15k Maps, but not sure how long that took or what their hardware was like.

 

 

So anyway, depending on what you have, it may take longer.

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Really, the only problem with Road Smoothing is that there is no visual representation that it is progressing. Overall, even with the slowness of road smoothing, maps are generating faster in A21. If players could see that it was making progress it would end all the worry that the game is frozen. 

 

Yea, A20 took quite some time to generate a 10k Map.

 

Different hardware, but it took a really long time.

 

 

[wolfbain5]

please set the last rank of any skill magazine back to default instead of 0 for those in mp games can share them.

[Exxodous]

30 minutes ago, wolfbain5 said:

please set the last rank of any skill magazine back to default instead of 0 for those in mp games can share them.

I don't think it's zero as I'm still finding them after completing a series

 

[vergilsparda]

On 6/20/2023 at 2:05 PM, BFT2020 said:

 

Yes, the ones in the game that are called burnt or abandoned are the ones without a chance for an engine to drop.  That would similar to the ones we came across in A20 that were frame only.

 

Noticed as well (and caught on VERY quickly) that gas pumps and barrels give out far less gasoline and that if you want to get a good amount, wrenching searchable cars is the only other way besides crafting! Burnt out cars and even wrecked cars that you cannot search do not give you gasoline (or if they do, it is very little, as I have yet to see them do so). I thought that was super cool and very intuitive, since the "searched" or "opened" cars probably would have already been looted for whatever supplies they could have been. Good to know you can only get engines this way too, it makes sense because half the cars that aren't searchable are either destroyed or wrecked in such a way that the engine would probably be destroyed!

 

Sorry for geeking out in your replies but sincerely from at least me, I love when game developers add in super tiny details like that, it really does make the game feel more real, and on the topic of that I can't gush enough about all of the new assets. I don't even look twice at them unless it's an asset I haven't yet managed to see, and that's a ridiculously good thing, I presume. They blend into the existing art style the game currently has so incredibly seamlessly, it's unreal.

[wolfbain5]

4 hours ago, Exxodous said:

...

 

That's good to hear, I am receiving reports from players in discord saying that they are finding tons of empty book stands and book piles after completing magazine collections. they are most likely using mods as well. As long as the possibility remains, thats all that matters. I am barely looking into that aspect. I want to get a feel for vanilla before modding to seriously

Edited June 22, 2023 by wolfbain5
lol (see edit history)

[Neminsis]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

it is not up to TFP to change the game to meet your playstyle, that is up to the player to mod the game.

One more time, this isn't 'my' playstyle, this is something that affects multiple playstyles. This isn't about narrowing the balance for my particular playstyle as the half dozen people on this board that have implied otherwise have suggested. In fact, it's not even something that would affect them at all, and yet they're all up in arms about even the suggestion of it.  Nothing I've suggested would change the game in the slightest way for the people that are content with how it is presently. not one tiny bit. So what is it do you suppose that makes veteran players not want to have the game be more accessible for new players, to have the game be more attractive to a wider audience? 

Certainly it's in TFP interest to have as broad an audience as possible and not just tailor the vanilla game for a bunch of hardcore players, right? I mean, the money of filthy casuals spends just the same and there's more of them, right? 

Look, you're a modder, how long would it take you to bump up the exp gain on gathering tasks, and the prices for bulk materials and craftables? You wouldn't do as good of a job of getting the balance right without access to the internally generated spreadsheets that TFP have, but it would take you less than 5 minutes including taking 3 minutes out to read this and think of some scathing reply. And even so, you absolutely could not distribute that mod at anywhere near the same scale to those filthy casuals that TFP can by just balancing the vanilla game. 

 

6 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I have not once perked into Daring Adventure or Better Barter in both of my playthroughs

You do understand that's almost a completely meaningless statement, right? Given that you're a veteran of the game and your previously stated preference for more challenging play, your avoidance of those particular perks would only serve to emphasize that you're aware that they make the game much easier. Which would only serve as more evidence in support of the thesis that lower skilled players or those simply looking to shortcut progression would choose them.
 

7 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

People play all the time without traders and have a great time doing so.

 Have you tried it lately? In a wilderness or Navezgane spawn? None of my suggestions would have any affect on the no trader playstyle since that's a playstyle that relies entirely on raiding, and I brought it up to highlight how dependent the player is on the trader and how op they are.  Do consider that I'm saying this after the first patch has come out that has given a bit of a nerf to the trader by reducing the number of books available through them and increasing the price of water filters. So, obviously TFP are more aware of the trader imbalance than half the people on this board telling me that it's not their responsibility to balance things to 'my' playstyle. 🙄
 

7 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

7D2D is a great game where you have different ways you can play the game, but no game out there allows for infinite ways to play it.

If I'd suggested that there should be infinite ways to play then that might actually have some relevance. I didn't, in fact, I suggested minor tweaks to existing systems, that TFP have already laid the groundwork for by giving experience for gathering tasks and the ability to sell tier 0 stone arrows and bulk materials to the trader, in accordance with the stated goal of making crafting more important to the main game loop. If the counter thesis were correct that TFP intend to only serve veteran players or tight knit groups with an entirely quest focused game loop than why do those systems that don't serve that game loop exist?

Yes, it is a great game, and if I were to say otherwise the tens of thousands of hours that I've spent on it would quickly prove me a liar, and it's not like I'm one of those people pining for the golden age of LBD and fishing turds from the toilets. You'll find those people on the opposite side of this conversation still bitter, thoughtlessly repeating what they were told when their favorite system was discarded for a better one, "it's not TFP responsibility to cater to every playstyle, just mod it." 

To be absolutely clear, because I've long grown tired of this conversation, I like the new system and I absolutely do understand the design logic behind it. I'm not suggesting a reversion to any old system, new code, or that development be slowed in any way. I'm merely suggesting a quick balance pass be made on some existing values on existing systems that wouldn't have any effect on the primary game loop other than to minorly offset the bias towards the intellect tree and allow players some leeway in when and how they interact with the main game loop, and that it would go a long way in smoothing over a lot of complaints from more casual players. Literally, nothing that would have and effect on anyone that's so kindly decided to gatekeep me for even bringing it up. 

Now, unless you have something constructive to say, please try and avoid quoting me in the future.

Thank you and have a great day.

[zicky]

I have enjoyed A21 so far.  In fact, I finally found the water purifier mod to be useful.  I never used it before because, honestly, there was no need.  Now it is my go to mod, second only to the helmet light mod.  With four dew collectors working I now have enough water to cook with and prepare glue.   Not sure why the price was increased on the water filter, though, since you really do need a minimum of two or, at least, that's my take on it.

I am on day 32 and I've maxed out the seed, food and forge magazines with my specialties of spears and bows soon to follow.  At first I noticed that the magazines were falling about evenly; but, after I perked at least two on my specialties, they started falling regularly.  

I do have one question, though.  This is supposed to be set in Arizona, right.  By all that's holy, why does it rain more in the game than it does where I live in Louisiana.😛

[Old Crow]

26 minutes ago, zicky said:

 This is supposed to be set in Arizona, right.  By all that's holy, why does it rain more in the game than it does where I live in Louisiana.😛

 

Yup. Yet somehow water is a problem. XD

[Jost Amman]

29 minutes ago, zicky said:

This is supposed to be set in Arizona, right.  By all that's holy, why does it rain more in the game than it does where I live in Louisiana.😛

That's not the current Arizona, it's the post-apoc Arizona! 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Neminsis said:

One more time, this isn't 'my' playstyle, this is something that affects multiple playstyles. This isn't about narrowing the balance for my particular playstyle as the half dozen people on this board that have implied otherwise have suggested. In fact, it's not even something that would affect them at all, and yet they're all up in arms about even the suggestion of it. 

 

First of all it would affect them. And it seems you are all up in arms as well because even people who just want to discuss it and present their differing oppinions are met with rather hostile replies. I see nothing in BFT's post that warants your insulting sarkasm at the end.

 

8 hours ago, Neminsis said:

Nothing I've suggested would change the game in the slightest way for the people that are content with how it is presently. not one tiny bit. So what is it do you suppose

that makes veteran players not want to have the game be more accessible for new players, to have the game be more attractive to a wider audience? 

 

No change I have seen you propose was without side effects for normal players. For example, if I remember correctly you proposed the trader offer more forge ahead (and maybe tools?) books. If the trader does this, normal players will have access to those books as well and can advance faster on the workstation track.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RhinoW]

Magazine weapon tiers

 

Aight lads just came here to leave my two cents. The new magazine system seems pretty decent so far, it's a mix of old school blueprints and a learn by reading instead of learn by doing sort of progression. However, I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one that thinks weapon tiers (not levels) shouldn't be this sequencial.

 

What do I mean exactly?

 

Well, you see, the wooden bow is unlocked after I'm able to craft a level 3 primitive bow (or 4? can't recall), but the problem is, it is far weaker than the tier 3 primitive bow, and once I reach level 5 primitive bow, only the level 3 wooden bow actually makes a difference, both fully modded (and even then it is still just +0.1 in damage difference, but the durability and projectile speed is far better by default).

 

So there's a stagnation period, as well as weapons we will straight up never use as they are simply inferior. Not to mention the wooden bow already requires bow parts that you have to find through RNG.

 

And this is just one example, I'm fairly certain it's the same for other weapon types.

 

I would suggest maybe separating quality and tiers from the magazines, or simply having the next tier unlock earlier so it can rival the previous one, otherwise there's no point in being able to craft lvl 1 and lvl 2 weapons of the next tier for most weapons. (Exceptions would be the pump shotgun as it functions very differently than the double barrel, and will always have a higher DPS since it can shoot more than 2 times before reloading, the mp5, and perhaps the iron crossbow).

 

TL:DR : Weapon tiers should be unlocked earlier in the magazines as there is a stagnation period where the previous tier is constantly superior and is only outshined when the following tier reaches lvl 3-4 (and the previous one remains at 5), meaning lvls 1-2(3) are completely useless.

 

 

Magazine Looting

 

So, the magazine loot chances are tied to a specific perk that influences loot when the player opens a container. This is a great addition for singleplayer, where everything is for them, but somewhat of a problem in multiplayer for obvious reasons.

 

Anyone who doesn't loot is missing out on his own progression, because he might be harvesting resources or base building rather than looting. But, you see, that has always been the strength in grouping up, being able to split tasks and work for different goals, covering more terrain. Having this individual and artificial loot manipulation detracts from the experience and kinda forces player to have to take turns in looting, which is ridiculous as the loot should be the same there no matter what.

 

I already had problems with lucky looter because of this, I think those kind of buffs usually just make everything too damn controlled in order to not miss out. I'm damn glad it got nerfed.

 

I don't think this loot manipulation is necessary in the slightest, there are so many containers, so many PoIs, so much focus on biome and PoI tier. A balanced loot pool can easily be arranged through thematic, container type and difficulty tier. Hell, I would even say that magazine levels could even be reduced to make them rarer but more valuable, not requiring frequent spawning in order to make use of them, allowing other magazines to take its place.

 

However, I would 100% agree that for quest rewards, the magazines should suit the player needs.

 

TL:DR : Magazine loot shouldn't be tied to a perk imo, and should rather be more focused on container type, difficulty tier (PoI+biome) and thematic (medical, military, food), with the exception of quest rewards.

[Ralathar44]

10 hours ago, Neminsis said:

To be absolutely clear, because I've long grown tired of this conversation, I like the new system and I absolutely do understand the design logic behind it. I'm not suggesting a reversion to any old system, new code, or that development be slowed in any way. I'm merely suggesting a quick balance pass be made on some existing values on existing systems that wouldn't have any effect on the primary game loop other than to minorly offset the bias towards the intellect tree and allow players some leeway in when and how they interact with the main game loop, and that it would go a long way in smoothing over a lot of complaints from more casual players. Literally, nothing that would have and effect on anyone that's so kindly decided to gatekeep me for even bringing it up. 

Considering the disagreements Ive seen you have with others I think my earlier suggestion for giving small amounts of knowledge progression via attributes + perks and an additional minor amount of magazine chance weighting via attributes is about the best you're gonna get lol.  Most people don't seem to be interested in the trader being made strong enough to be able to ignore scavenging and already consider the quest rewards it has to be too strong. (outside of the obviously bugged ones)

Source of the suggestion I'm mentioning: 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

8 hours ago, zicky said:

I do have one question, though.  This is supposed to be set in Arizona, right.  By all that's holy, why does it rain more in the game than it does where I live in Louisiana.😛

Not to mention, all the license plates are from Texas.  I guess Texas annexed Arizona?

[Gamida]

Have seen a lot of back and forth about magazines. Some talk about wanting to be the home builder and take care of base. Some talk of looters who read all the magazines because they eventually take up too many slots and it may be time consuming to have to keep running back to base to drop them off.

I was thinking of a sort of compromise. It would need to have to wait until you have a vehicle, preferable at least a minibike.

What if in each town the looters dropped a crate or 2. They could mark it for all to see and looters could throw extra magazines in them and then later a home base person could jump on a vehicle, drive around and collect them up to bring

back to be sorted amongst whoever is home.

Takes care of the looters storage problem and the base builders don't have to do a lot of looting.

This of course also depends on if the chunk reset option is chosen.

Anyway that was just a thought that popped in my head. My help or may just be a pile of doo doo. (Yes, I said doo doo)

[Wulf]

About magazines.

Suppose you run a coop game with 2 players. You want to play together and do quests together. Basically everything you would do solo except side by side. (i've done this in previous alpha's).

You don't loot more than if you were by yourself because you're running the same POI's with the same lootcontainers (except double quest rewards). Constantly keeping track what magazines you loot and who gets what seems much more tedious to me than it was in A20 (for example). There, we basically decided how we were gonna build or characters and who would spec into what. And that was it.

 

This new way seems to way too tedious for me. It's fine for when i play singleplayer though. Edit: Also, total team progression isn't faster in coop this way and would probably be slower compared to singleplayer (because of how looting works)

 

 

Am i alone in this? (This is besides having different playstyles trying to work together as described above where 1 player stays home - that has it's own problems like Gamida adressed)

Edited June 22, 2023 by Wulf (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, RhinoW said:

Magazine weapon tiers

 

Aight lads just came here to leave my two cents. The new magazine system seems pretty decent so far, it's a mix of old school blueprints and a learn by reading instead of learn by doing sort of progression. However, I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one that thinks weapon tiers (not levels) shouldn't be this sequencial.

 

What do I mean exactly?

 

Well, you see, the wooden bow is unlocked after I'm able to craft a level 3 primitive bow (or 4? can't recall), but the problem is, it is far weaker than the tier 3 primitive bow, and once I reach level 5 primitive bow, only the level 3 wooden bow actually makes a difference, both fully modded (and even then it is still just +0.1 in damage difference, but the durability and projectile speed is far better by default).

 

So there's a stagnation period, as well as weapons we will straight up never use as they are simply inferior. Not to mention the wooden bow already requires bow parts that you have to find through RNG.

 

And this is just one example, I'm fairly certain it's the same for other weapon types.

 

I would suggest maybe separating quality and tiers from the magazines, or simply having the next tier unlock earlier so it can rival the previous one, otherwise there's no point in being able to craft lvl 1 and lvl 2 weapons of the next tier for most weapons. (Exceptions would be the pump shotgun as it functions very differently than the double barrel, and will always have a higher DPS since it can shoot more than 2 times before reloading, the mp5, and perhaps the iron crossbow).

 

TL:DR : Weapon tiers should be unlocked earlier in the magazines as there is a stagnation period where the previous tier is constantly superior and is only outshined when the following tier reaches lvl 3-4 (and the previous one remains at 5), meaning lvls 1-2(3) are completely useless.

 

 

Magazine Looting

 

So, the magazine loot chances are tied to a specific perk that influences loot when the player opens a container. This is a great addition for singleplayer, where everything is for them, but somewhat of a problem in multiplayer for obvious reasons.

 

Anyone who doesn't loot is missing out on his own progression, because he might be harvesting resources or base building rather than looting. But, you see, that has always been the strength in grouping up, being able to split tasks and work for different goals, covering more terrain. Having this individual and artificial loot manipulation detracts from the experience and kinda forces player to have to take turns in looting, which is ridiculous as the loot should be the same there no matter what.

 

I already had problems with lucky looter because of this, I think those kind of buffs usually just make everything too damn controlled in order to not miss out. I'm damn glad it got nerfed.

 

I don't think this loot manipulation is necessary in the slightest, there are so many containers, so many PoIs, so much focus on biome and PoI tier. A balanced loot pool can easily be arranged through thematic, container type and difficulty tier. Hell, I would even say that magazine levels could even be reduced to make them rarer but more valuable, not requiring frequent spawning in order to make use of them, allowing other magazines to take its place.

 

However, I would 100% agree that for quest rewards, the magazines should suit the player needs.

 

TL:DR : Magazine loot shouldn't be tied to a perk imo, and should rather be more focused on container type, difficulty tier (PoI+biome) and thematic (medical, military, food), with the exception of quest rewards.

 

Seeing how the loot bonus is skewing everyone's expectation and the usual misconceptions about randomness emerging, I fully agree with you (at the moment 😉). 

 

The loot bonus is meant as a safety net, but due to randomness is also only randomly a safety-net. And since the bonus is always there it isn't really a safety net but a bonus that directly influences the balance of how many magazines drop. 

 

I.e. if TFP wants the games progression to last until day 50, they have to space out the 100 shotgun recipes over those 50 days, but they have to include the safety-net bonus in the calculation because a shotgun player will normally get that bonus.

So without that bonus each of the magazines would drop twice a day on average. Because of the bonus now perked magazines have to drop twice a day while all other magazines drop less than twice a day because the bonus is missing. In effect it seems more like a nerf for all other magazines.

 

Now surely TFP could also say, nah, we want the progression nominally until day 50, but we are ok with the progression of perked items being over early. No matter, it doesn't really feel like a safety-net looking at it this way, more like a fast-track.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

31 minutes ago, Wulf said:

About magazines.

Suppose you run a coop game with 2 players. You want to play together and do quests together. Basically everything you would do solo except side by side. (i've done this in previous alpha's).

You don't loot more than if you were by yourself because you're running the same POI's with the same lootcontainers (except double quest rewards). Constantly keeping track what magazines you loot and who gets what seems much more tedious to me than it was in A20 (for example). There, we basically decided how we were gonna build or characters and who would spec into what. And that was it.

 

This isn't different from tracking which books (like Urban Combat books, Spear books) everyone wants and saving them up. Usually with two players you have about 4-5 magazines you want to read yourself anyway (2 of them weapon books, 2-3 utility), 6 magazines are for weapons nobody uses, and only 5 magazines you have to remember to give to the other. I play in a group of 4 players and in the first 3 days there were a lot of questions of the type "Who needs ... again?", but I feel that has died down.

 

I would suggest putting a chest on the street in front of POIs you loot. That was a good idea previously and it is even better now. Drop magazines you don't read yourself into it as well as any stuff clogging your inventory and whatever the other player wants he will read automatically. 

 

31 minutes ago, Wulf said:

This new way seems to way too tedious for me. It's fine for when i play singleplayer though. Edit: Also, total team progression isn't faster in coop this way and would probably be slower compared to singleplayer (because of how looting works)

 

Total team progression is faster. Because you are faster looting POIs as a team you can loot more POIs in a day. And you get a multiple of the magazines from quest rewards. But always only one in a team needs to progress in a magazine series for everyone getting the benefit. 

 

In other words, N co-op players will only need 100 magazines of a type same as 1 player, but they obviously loot more and get more quest rewards than a single player.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Wulf said:

 

Am i alone in this? (This is besides having different playstyles trying to work together as described above where 1 player stays home - that has it's own problems like Gamida adressed)

 

My group seems to like the team aspect of collecting magazines and giving them to the other players.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Wulf]

Yes, there are ways to deal with this ingame, i understand that. But the bottom line is that it is not fun to deal with this for me. That is the feedback i can offer.

It was ok with books, but the huge number of different magazines added, makes a game element, that is typically not the focus point for fun in most games, namely inventory management, spill over into multiplayer.

 

I'll just stick with singleplayer where i can focus on the gameplay that is fun for me.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Wulf (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

14 minutes ago, Wulf said:

Yes, there are ways to deal with this ingame, i understand that. But the bottom line is that it is not fun to deal with this for me. That is the feedback i can offer.

It was ok with books, but the huge number of different magazines added, makes a game element, that is typically not the focus point for fun in most games, namely inventory management, spill over into multiplayer.

 

I'll just stick with singleplayer where i can focus on the gameplay that is fun for me.

There’s definitely more to manage now with the sheer amount of magazines. However, once you become more familiar with the names and magazine art I think it will become easier. Right now it’s just a massive info dump with a lot of extra things for your brain to process. Another way to approach it would be to focus solely on separating the most important magazines: forge ahead, food, tools, vehicles, and seeds and not worry about the rest as much.  And even then you probably only need to really focus on forge ahead and food in the first couple of days.