What do you want the Bandits to be like?

[Jost Amman]

There should also be bandits on bikes to catch up to you if you try to run.

Then, you can blow their bikes up and maybe even take them (or take bike parts from the wreckage) if you win.

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

There should also be bandits on bikes to catch up to you if you try to run.

Then, you can blow their bikes up and maybe even take them (or take bike parts from the wreckage) if you win.

I hope you are referring to the motorcycle and not my worse nightmare of fully armored bandits rolling up on pedal bicycles to do machine gun drive by lol....

 

I stand by my opinion we never needed a bicycle in the game as its just a filler vehicle before the mini bike....😅

[Viktoriusiii]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Welcome back Vik

You know Back then your reply would have made me mad
Now, I just wanna say:
Individual opinion is not egotistical.
If I say "I will flip the $%&§" that is not a threat "do it or else" just...
I won't like it whatsoever.
I have a strong opinion about that, nothing more. I am not egotistical or smallminded for beeing on the extreme end of the spectrum.
Just because 90% won't care, 5% will love them and 5% will hate them (numbers pulled out of the arse of the "normal distribution"-bell curve of extremes), does not mean that the 5% have no right to their opinion.
And it does not mean that one should only take into account the other 95%.


But honestly... I just wanted to vent a bit. And I was so very bored, that I actually came back, trying to voice an opinion on here 😂

 

Well... have fun again Roland! Good to see, some things never change!

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Viktoriusiii
it doubled the post for some reason (see edit history)

[meganoth]

I'm sure TFP themselves don't know what they can eventually do with the bandits. They surely have ideas and plans but they will have to see what is possible in a realistic time frame with their manpower.

 

What I am 150% sure is that there won't be bandits who dig for resources and build horde bases block by block that you can then try to invade as if it was a KI-replacement of PvP players. Simply not possible. (Is that what you were thinking of with "building", VictoriusIII?)

 

What is possible is faking it. I.e. a bandit base that gets an instant upgrade every week while the player isn't looking. Similar to a damaged quest poi being replaced with a pristine version of itself so could a bandit poi.tier1 get replaced by bandit poi.tier2 and later bandit poi.tier3.

 

But I don't see why they should do that. Bandits are supposed to be end-game enemies. This upgrading would instead make a bandit camp something you could take on at any stage of the game. Instead of it being the carrot to make you get better armor and weapons and perks.

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

trying to voice an opinion on here

You surely succeeded. Don’t feel like you failed in that regard. I can page back and still see it there. 
 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I am not egotistical or smallminded

I don’t think either of those things about you nor did I say them. I said that the statement “If the devs don’t implement x in the way I like, then they should not implement it at all” is a selfish statement. That’s just my opinion, though, and you’re welcome to dispute it….if you’re still bored enough to do so. 😂

 

The devs have said they want bandits to use cover and try to outflank you. We also know there will be dedicated bandit camps. Madmole has said he wants there to be two factions and a reputation system. He also said a random event manager was something he wanted to implement which would put encounters in your projected path. 

[beerfly]

If there could be melee, assault, sniper or any builds. Different bandits in a camp or area, where some are fast (melee), or a one with a ghillie suit (just example), away from the camp, spawning when his fellas are activated (or he activates them towards us when in range) That if graphics allows it for the guy to be invisible, having in mind the graphics settings we use of course. 

 

And wonder what loot will they leave (legendary maybe some day ?), or we will go to the loot boxes directly. 

 

There are many possibilities, The Pimps will not let us down. 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

But I don't see why they should do that. Bandits are supposed to be end-game enemies. This upgrading would instead make a bandit camp something you could take on at any stage of the game. Instead of it being the carrot to make you get better armor and weapons and perks.

see... now I do not get that WHATSOEVER.
Why can't bandits evolve WITH you?
Gamestage x => x + y  = stone
Gamestage x + y => x + z  = scrap

Gamestage x + z => x + yz  = tier 1

I would like to see bandits with sledgehammers.
I would like to see them use the blunderbuss.
Why can't they start their camp with like a basic tent and ring of spikes day 0-7 (I'd love them to spawn in later at random "empty" poi spots so you don't see them immediately and it feels like they work WITH the world) then you see a basestructure that has quite a few unfinished towers and stuff, then the wall is complete but only one side is fortified... like... I think 6 stages is more than enough then add like 3 different varieties and it should be fine.


But what I absolutely hate about 7d2d (again: love the game. bought it on release on steam and have been quite active... wouldn't be if I disliked the game on the whole) is that it feels so god damn static.
Nothing in it changes. And bandits and NPCs NEED to change that.
A basebuilding system is one way, but another FAR more important in my opinion is behaviour.
Let them wander to cities... let them clear out easy, noncomplex pois (just going in, trigger zombies walk out, empty 50% of lootcrates inside)

I don't need harder enemies (coming from me, the guy who always asked for harder difficulty, that means something ;D) that can shoot.
I mean I won't complain, but there is no need for them. What this game needs is a heart. A breathing, changing world.
Not every poi. Not every minute of every day.
Just... SOMETHING.
Moving traders, bandits, random NPCs that build their own hordebase...


OBVIOUSLY the more complex the better, but I understand that there are limits.
But SOMETHING is not too much to ask...

51 minutes ago, Roland said:

“If the devs don’t implement x in the way I like, then they should not implement it at all” is a selfish statement.

If a feature, that brings nothing new to the table, is beeing developed for nearly half the devtime and is STILL beeing pushed out... it is time to scratch it. That is what I wanted to say. Zombies with guns are nothing we need. We need, as said, interesting new behaviour.

And if what MM advertised comes to pass, that is a good step in the right direction... but I have been burned before by his words, so I won't get my hopes up

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

If a feature, that brings nothing new to the table, is beeing developed for nearly half the devtime and is STILL beeing pushed out... it is time to scratch it.

You do know that they haven’t really begun to work on bandits, right?  They keep pushing bandit development back due to other priorities. They haven’t spent the last four years working on them. They made those preliminary models in A12 (which they won’t use) but that was it. 
 

I fully agree with your ideas about what you would like to see. I think the bandits you would add to the game if you could, would be awesome. 
 

But I’d also rather see even basic “zombies with guns” bandits over nothing at all. 
 

Once they start putting dev time into bandits we will have a better idea of what they will be able to do. 
 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

And if what MM advertised comes to pass, that is a good step in the right direction... but I have been burned before by his words, so I won't get my hopes up

Well, it’s taking his words as a promise or advertisement that gives you that burning feeling. When he talks about his wishes, they are just that and not necessarily the official roadmap. You have to accept that reality doesn’t always end up matching wishes. I think he finally realized that people had a hard time differentiating his wishes with promises based in reality and he stopped sharing his wishes. 

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

You do know that they haven’t really begun to work on bandits, right?

 

😨they WHAT?
beeing "pushed back" usually means "hey sorry guys, we tried, but they are not quite finished, so we push their release back a bit"

They had the models done ages ago and some basic melee with the trader as well...

But why would they say every alpha "THIS alpha, they come out" only to say they moved it back after like... half a year?
Don't they know better? o_o Now I actually feel kinda lied to.
It sounded more like a feature that was so complex that it just NEEDED more time... now you tell me they haven't been working on it whatsoever?

*breathe* 1...2...3...

Okay... thank you for enlightening me. That just... came as a shock to me.

Buuut... I'm sure they will do ok... eventually
Like they recovered from A17... still a lootershooter, but a good one.

So they will probably eventually do things the right way guess only thing I can do is wait and see.

[Roland]

There are some things in the game they have worked on and then at the last minute pulled them because they weren't quite done. The drone is a prime example. We were given updates on its progress and told it was for A19 and then at the last moment they said it wasn't quite done and would be delayed to A20. They have been working on the drone and it will be ready for A20.

 

But bandits? Other than A12 where they created some models using UMA, I believe,  we have never gotten any progress updates. All we have ever gotten is assurances that they will come in the future. There were times we were told that certain features and mechanics (such as character animations) would also benefit bandits once the devs turned their attention to them but there is a reason we haven't gotten any progress updates-- there has been no progress. faatal will most definitely be the one to implement their AI and he is always good about giving updates on what he has been working on and there hasn't been a single word from him on it because he hasn't been working on it. In fact, he answered someone awhile back who was asking if the original A17 zombie AI was going to basically be the bandit AI since it was pre- dumbing them down. faatal answered that he would probably not do that and would code the AI completely differently for the bandits. He hasn't started doing that yet (unless he is doing it on the side on his own time).

 

I guess when the devs said that bandits were getting postponed what they meant was the development of them was getting postponed but you took it as their release was getting postponed. There has been no lie that I can see. I can tell you honestly that nobody on the team is playing with bandits behind closed doors. They are not in any development build yet. A20 is an overhaul update. Updating old POIs, creating new POI's, redoing the shape selector tool with over 1000 shapes and then updating POI's that used legacy shapes, redoing RWG, and overhauling all the NPCs and zombies to new models is exactly why we are over a year on A20 development. It has not been about trying to overcome difficulties with bandit implementation.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

19 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

I want them to be naked and look like Asian babes.

There'll probably be a mod for that.

16 hours ago, warmer said:

I would think you'd remember the association with Duke,

And Noah. Iirc madmole said which group gets pulled from for the bandits depends on which faction you side with, Cazadors (the Duke) or White River (Noah).

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

see... now I do not get that WHATSOEVER.
Why can't bandits evolve WITH you?
Gamestage x => x + y  = stone
Gamestage x + y => x + z  = scrap

Gamestage x + z => x + yz  = tier 1

I would like to see bandits with sledgehammers.
I would like to see them use the blunderbuss.
Why can't they start their camp with like a basic tent and ring of spikes day 0-7 (I'd love them to spawn in later at random "empty" poi spots so you don't see them immediately and it feels like they work WITH the world) then you see a basestructure that has quite a few unfinished towers and stuff, then the wall is complete but only one side is fortified... like... I think 6 stages is more than enough then add like 3 different varieties and it should be fine.

 

Totally possible. It is just my opinion that they would be wasted as normal enemies. Players would see and get used to them in the first hours of playing 7D2D.

 

8 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But what I absolutely hate about 7d2d (again: love the game. bought it on release on steam and have been quite active... wouldn't be if I disliked the game on the whole) is that it feels so god damn static.
Nothing in it changes. And bandits and NPCs NEED to change that.
A basebuilding system is one way, but another FAR more important in my opinion is behaviour.
Let them wander to cities... let them clear out easy, noncomplex pois (just going in, trigger zombies walk out, empty 50% of lootcrates inside)

 

In  the game nothing is happening outside the area a player is in. It is the most egocentric game possible, you **are** the center of the universe. And I don't see this changing.

So stuff like bandits wandering in the cities and clearing them out would basically be a random roll on POIs whether they are already cleared out or not. Would you be okay with that? Sadly it is impossible for TFP to keep stuff like this really secret, all players will eventually find out how the game tricks them.

 

8 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I don't need harder enemies (coming from me, the guy who always asked for harder difficulty, that means something ;D) that can shoot.
I mean I won't complain, but there is no need for them. What this game needs is a heart. A breathing, changing world.
Not every poi. Not every minute of every day.
Just... SOMETHING.
Moving traders, bandits, random NPCs that build their own hordebase...


OBVIOUSLY the more complex the better, but I understand that there are limits.
But SOMETHING is not too much to ask...

If a feature, that brings nothing new to the table, is beeing developed for nearly half the devtime and is STILL beeing pushed out... it is time to scratch it. That is what I wanted to say. Zombies with guns are nothing we need. We need, as said, interesting new behaviour.

And if what MM advertised comes to pass, that is a good step in the right direction... but I have been burned before by his words, so I won't get my hopes up

 

[Gamida]

14 hours ago, Laz Man said:

I hope you are referring to the motorcycle and not my worse nightmare of fully armored bandits rolling up on pedal bicycles to do machine gun drive by lol....

 

I stand by my opinion we never needed a bicycle in the game as its just a filler vehicle before the mini bike....😅

 

[theFlu]

44 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So stuff like bandits wandering in the cities and clearing them out would basically be a random roll on POIs whether they are already cleared out or not.

Teechnically.. I saw someone simulate zombies wandering in from the edges of the map; I'm pretty sure it was on these forums, but I don't claim it was  implemented on top of 7dtd. The idea was a rather simple "random grid wandering algo" with the result of every zed having a "history" and thus a logical location, while bringing in new cannon fodder every day. No history saved of course. Simulating them with some movement restrictions (don't step inside this area, it's been walled off) and basically as a single x-y datapoint could give them "a little more realistic" spawning.

 

Similar idea could be used for bandit groups "doing things" in the world, they don't need to load the chunks and actually do anything in the 3d world, just having their operations simulated on a "map" of the world might be enough to give a realistic outcome. Then when a player shows up, the trail of destruction can be simulated as the world loads. Of course, it would be a lot of work to implement something along those lines and might take a little too much CPU to process dynamically. I'm not expecting anything like that.. would be cool though

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

So stuff like bandits wandering in the cities and clearing them out would basically be a random roll on POIs whether they are already cleared out or not.

NOOOO! I don't care for the loot.

I want to see how the bandits move out of their base, walk in the city, kill zombies and walk back to their camp.
This is so simple:
waypoint A is their base.
check in radius of like 400 blocks for simple pois (preferrably in the city)
make them walk there like zombie pathfinding
spawn in some zombies at waypoint B&C
let them go inside POI, spawn some more zombies , let them fight
move out and go back to base.
Also I want REAL fights. where some bandits might die not simulated like in a cutscene. That shouldnt be hard, just declare both parties enemies and boom.

I don't care if stuff is looted afterwards, that was just an addon for realism.
I don't want it to happen offscreen. Everything happens offscreen in 7D2D. As you said it is a player-centric game. But not in a good way.
Nothing happens if the player is not there. And that is what I find the sadest thing. It doesn't feel like the world is alive.

[Maharin]

As long as I can sneak into the bandits' hideout right before horde night...

[Fanatical_Meat]

Id we are in fantasy land I want Bandits to:

play really good as in so good you cannot tell the difference between AI & a human player

I want them to build huge mad max type bases

I don't want them to cheat while doing it. They will need to mine, use concrete mixers and forges just like us. They need to build brick by brick

I want them to send me emails & text messages about how they are going to destroy my stuff

I want to be able to steal their important stuff and them send me real world money to give it back to them

I want to divert hundreds of zombies to them and watch them fight to bandits

I want the bandits to have a real settlement with farmers, metal workers, guards and hunters

I want to bring gifts to the bandits and they will befriend me.

friending me will mean real world calls and text messages to me telling me how great I am

I want them to give me 100% accurate investing advice so I can retire early and play 7D2D  

 

 

Above is what I mean guys. No game has ever done this, it is not possible to accomplish. Why fantasize about something that we know will not and cannot be done.

Why complain when Bandits don't exceed your fantasy expectations and Madmole didn't tell you it was impossible  

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

I want them to give me 100% accurate investing advice so I can retire early and play 7D2D  

They are bandits.

 

What you will get is a pyramid scheme where you think they are great investors, then 5-10 years later, they will be raided by the SEC, sent to jail, and you will be lucky just to get your initial investment back as they already spent all the money on bandit bling that has no value outside of the bandit camps  😉

 

See I am being realistic  😆

[Matt115]

Well honestly i hope bandits will works like mix of  minecraft and dying light.   They are just range + meele enemies spawning randomly like zombies but in 3 -  8 member group . They would have they own poi like bases , outpost. maybe some random events like convoy on road or  crashed helicopter with some loot. Just make them normal enemies in mc style not into stalker with mods

[warmer]

14 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I want to see how the bandits move out of their base, walk in the city, kill zombies and walk back to their camp.
This is so simple:

people that say programming AI is simple, have never programmed AI

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

No game has ever done this, it is not possible to accomplish.

It's just ONE @faatal afternoon work TBH.

It's just that they have "other priorities"...

[Viktoriusiii]

45 minutes ago, warmer said:

people that say programming AI is simple, have never programmed AI

Well yes obviously. But the point is, they already HAVE that A.I. with the zombies.
They already have Waypoint A (zombies current position) and Waypoint B (the player).
So they already have the most complex thing out of the way.

I'm not an idiot. I know @%$# is complicated. But what I meant was that they already have everything they would need for it.

[Fanatical_Meat]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well honestly i hope bandits will works like mix of  minecraft and dying light.   They are just range + meele enemies spawning randomly like zombies but in 3 -  8 member group . They would have they own poi like bases , outpost. maybe some random events like convoy on road or  crashed helicopter with some loot. Just make them normal enemies in mc style not into stalker with mods

 

In my opinion this is a very reasonable expectation with a reasonable stretch goal of bandits having POIs.

[Matt115]

Just now, Fanatical_Meat said:

 

In my opinion this is a very reasonable expectation with a reasonable stretch goal of bandits having POIs.

Yeah, easy solution but good. i prefer this option. well bandits attack on bases could be "annoying" so  this solution is safe and will work good

[BFT2020]

6 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yeah, easy solution but good. i prefer this option. well bandits attack on bases could be "annoying" so  this solution is safe and will work good

I kind of hope that bandits would attack our bases.  It is one thing to build a base to defend against the Zs, it is another thing to build a base to defend against the Zs and bandits (depending on the AI).  The more I get out of my comfort zone in the game, the better....and right now, I am very comfortable with base building against Zs.