A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Shado47]

8 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

@Shado47 You seem like the type who picks a direction and follows it no matter what... even if it brings you down a cliff. I guess TFP have done everything wrong apparently, they should have listened to you, it was so simple after all! 

Thats not at all what I said. But show me one other game where the devs have redone features this many times over. Not even Minecraft redid their world gen this many times. At some point you gotta decide "this is good, lets move on" and get to more of the stuff on your roadmap. Instead every new update, half the content is like "yeah, lets do all this stuff again once more". But if the concept of a development roadmap (which is usually a very central element in game development) is so absurd to you, I guess I can't help you.

I didnt say they're not adding any good stuff, but like half the content per update is reworks of stuff that has already been redone many times over. Not improvements and tweaks that build on the current system. No. A complete rework from scratch. And in the case of the skill trees or world gen, often the new iteration isn't even any better than the previous one.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

Take that one, add the new terrain erosion features, for the love of god don't remove even more biomes, fix the roads that used to end in the middle of nowhere (still happens on A19 so who am I kidding), add the terrain feature stamp system from A20, proper caves (!!!), few more tweaks ... and voila. You got yourself an amazing worldgen.

 

Square pegs into round holes. Gotcha!

46 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

No. A complete rework from scratch. And in the case of the skill trees or world gen, often the new iteration isn't even any better than the previous one.

I can't think of a single system that was a complete rework from scratch. Everything they have done has built upon what they already had. If you think each alpha is a complete rework from scratch then you are standing too close to properly see. Step back and look at the whole progression of the game's development and you will better recognize that development has been iterative.

 

That's not to say they haven't done experimentation-- but reworking systems from scratch over and over again? I don't think "from scratch" means what you think it means.

[wolfbain5]

I believe the person is asking about  either coming up from above or below it "stairs, ramp, etc" and triggering the volume.

[Gamida]

9 hours ago, Old Garyman said:

Sorry you couldn't see it in the video. You can lock every slot you want. The L-Key for me it's OK.

Do you mean I could lock the 4 corners and 2 in center of inventory if I wanted too. If so that is awesome. I often used the first column and the last one to keep items I used a lot in.

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Shado47 said:

I didnt say they're not adding any good stuff, but like half the content per update is reworks of stuff that has already been redone many times over. Not improvements and tweaks that build on the current system. No. A complete rework from scratch. And in the case of the skill trees or world gen, often the new iteration isn't even any better than the previous one.

Look, I understand that from the perspective of an uninformed player that's all you see, but trust me, I've been following these devs for years in a very detailed way, long before I started posting on the forums, so I think I know what's what.

 

True, they did experiment a lot over the years, but every single change or "rework" they've made has been for good reasons. Sometimes it's a technical reason (like when they decided to ditch the Unity UMA system) and sometimes is a design reason (like with the Perk/Skill tree system changes), but every single time they're doing it weighing pros and cons.

 

Most naysayers like you portray TFP like crazy monkeys throwing pins on a whiteboard to choose the content for the next alpha. What's really happening is that you (meaning most people) are completely oblivious of the "behind the scenes" and don't really have a clue on how they work through each decision they take.

[Jost Amman]

19 hours ago, NinjaMoa said:

What is done for the Y aspect then?

 

The main problem I have found with this is dropping / climbing into another room and having them appear as i do so.

I found these nice tips from @Jackelmyer in his thread on POI design:

Quote

TIPS - Sleeper Volumes

 

1. Overlapping volumes can behave funny. But they sometimes are the only way to make your Prefab spawn zombies in a way that makes sense considering a player can come from any direction. I personally found it beneficial to place zombies in key areas that I knew i wouldn't overlap with multiple Sleeper Volumes. Then I had Sleeper Volumes placed overlapping to ensure zombies spawn when a player enters a certain area and they don't get the zombie flashing up in front of them. Not an easy task.
2. Keep in mind that when you enter a Sleeper Volume, there can be as much as an 8 second delay it seems (may vary even more) on when zombies spawn. So be cautious with how tight your Sleeper Volumes are. You may expect a player to have to break down a door to get into a sleeper volume... But what about after they broke down the door and come back to the Prefab a few game weeks later? No door, and they walk right into the room. Delay... zombies pop right in front of the player... ew.
3. Definitely import your Prefab after you've setup your Sleeper Volumes and give it a test run. Things may not behave exactly as you expect it. And they won't behave exactly as you want them. So test it out, tweak it some, but don't go crazy (i did. marginally helped... eh.)
4. IMO less is actually more when placing Sleeper Zombies in regards to how you want a Sleeper Volume to perform. You want to balance how many places you've put zombies, the size of the area that a Sleeper Volume is going to cover, and the Group you're using to spawn the zombies. The Groups are more important than placing a bunch of zombie positions. Out of the standard groups you get to use, note that the Default group types have a *chance* to spawn zombies, as to most all the other groups. Where as the Loot group types are guaranteed to spawn zombies. Play testing is a must! 

 

 

[Old Garyman]

4 hours ago, Gamida said:

Do you mean I could lock the 4 corners and 2 in center of inventory if I wanted too. If so that is awesome. I often used the first column and the last one to keep items I used a lot in.

Yes you can do what you want. You can also check it yourself 😉.

[KhaineGB]

Found out why madmole struggles to release the Kraken for new alpha builds...

 

 

Can't get it off 7 days to die.

[Adam the Waster]

7 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

Found out why madmole struggles to release the Kraken for new alpha builds...

 

 

Can't get it off 7 days to die.

how i feel whenever a Game updates come out for anything i like

7DTD, ARK etc

I hope it goes not come out on May, cuz ill be Hooked to Genesis 2. electric boogaloo  

still waiting for some extra 7DTD news on twitter. im watching you Madmole....


 

[Blake_]

48 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

how i feel whenever a Game updates come out for anything i like

7DTD, ARK etc

I hope it goes not come out on May, cuz ill be Hooked to Genesis 2. electric boogaloo  

still waiting for some extra 7DTD news on twitter. im watching you Madmole....

I absolutely wouldn't mind Christmas 2021 if it meant character system and basic npcs. It is loooooooooooooooooooooo(...)ng overdue.

[Adam the Waster]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

I absolutely wouldn't mind Christmas 2021 if it meant character system and basic npcs. It is loooooooooooooooooooooo(...)ng overdue.

the traders look so good while we look like plastic 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

I absolutely wouldn't mind Christmas 2021 if it meant character system and basic npcs. It is loooooooooooooooooooooo(...)ng overdue.

That would work for us, but the majority of players IMO would completely go nuts and start a riot!    

Edited March 8, 2021 by Jost Amman
typo (see edit history)

[beerfly]

48 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

That would work for us, but the majority of players IMO would completely go nuts and start a riot!    

The zombies will take all the rage, worry not 😛 

[Blake_]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

That would work for us, but the majority of players IMO would completely go nuts and start a riot!    

I don't think that is a real problem in the long term. And also nobody ever forgets about this game like, say, Cyberpunk 911.  Gameplay can hold the whiners IF we get enough gameplay videos/dev streams (we usually don't).

[Jost Amman]

3 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

I don't think that is a real problem in the long term.

Have you been on Steam lately?? They're already ranting about how long it takes between alphas... can't imagine how worse it'll get in a few months. 

[Guppys Fur]

3 hours ago, Blake_ said:

I absolutely wouldn't mind Christmas 2021 if it meant character system and basic npcs. It is loooooooooooooooooooooo(...)ng overdue.

Same here. From what i read ( or rather, from what i not read) its a long Road to go down still.

They shall take their time and make an Alpha with a landing as smooth as A19.

 

Would like to see the Streams picked up again. Doesnt have to be just A20 Material but a deeper look into their roadmap, whats to come and with what kind of probability... that would be dope and sweeten the months of wait to come.

 

Anyhow: In Pimps i trust again, im willing to wait for nice features, and of course: The Drone

[Khalagar]

5 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

I hope it goes not come out on May, cuz ill be Hooked to Genesis 2.

 

Oh snap, forgot Genesis 2 was that close. When A20 comes out Valheim might have died down a bit too, although I'm not sure 7 Days can attract the super casual crowd well enough to snag much off them

[meilodasreh]

1 hour ago, Guppys Fur said:

 

Dear Mr. Mole, i hope you guys reconsider here.

 

I was really looking forward to this, as im sure many others too.

 

Just imagine the level of satisfaction, having this icon of progression in your lategame. Positivly forcing you to re-design your craft room to create place for that Beauty

I second that.

Was hoping workstations would become upgradable to adapt to the „ages“ progression system.

For example the current model of the forge represents stoneage and when you have all three tools (bellows, crucible, anvil  ) then you can buy an upgrade kit at the traders for a good amount of money. With that you upgrade the forge to ironage. 
same thing but new model (maybe twice big, looking like a blacksmith‘s fire, with actual anvil next to it, and fume hood above. And faster production of course.

that one would have another set of tools to add, and then next upgrade to modern age.

Again new bigger model maybe with hydraulic hammer or so.

and of course very fast at smelting and producing.

 

Same thing for workbench. Wooden table is stoneage, ironage could be a metal desk with some gears, clamps  and stuff, modern age with drill press, anglegrinder,...

would require reintroduction of the workbench tools (e.g. tap and die, calipers) from former alphas (I liked that system a lot)

 

[Khalagar]

  

3 hours ago, Blake_ said:

what's one more that adds awesome jumpscares at the cheap cost of a couple of weeks of dev time tops

 

Devs make anywhere from 25-50+ dollars an hour minimum

 

Two weeks dev time = 80 hours x $30 an hour (lowest realistic minimum you are going to get a veteran dev at and even that is pretty low) = $2,400 worth of dev time solely devoted to adding and programming a zombie shark and trying to make it work in engine etc. Not even getting into the graphic design team having to actually make the visuals

 

7 Days to Die goes on sale like non stop for under 10 dollars, so they would need to sell 240 copies of the game, solely because of the new shark enemy, to actually justify adding the shark. That just isn't the kind of feature that is going to make a potential buyer go "Whoaaa I was on the fence but it has a shark, must buy!" compared to just spending those two weeks adding more content. Like wise, a shark isn't going to bring old players back. If the entire patch notes for A20 just says "added a shark" nobody is going to start a new playthrough and get their friends to play just to see it.

 

Obviously the figures above are super simplified and it's just napkin math that doesn't account for stuff like Steam's cut of the profit etc. You would almost certainly have to double the actual cost and time investment to add something so different from the other game entities, because everything always costs WAY more than you budgeted for.

 

Not to be blunt, and you may have been joking, just wanting to try to explain some of the business side since dealing with customer's feature requests to the dev team is basically half of my current job haha

 

 

 

2 hours ago, madmole said:

Simple is great

 

Valheim selling over 5 million copies in like a month is 100% undeniable proof of that. One of the biggest things I see people praise it for is that it's not focused around PvP like most of the other survival games, and that everything is much simpler and it's easy for casuals to pick.

 

I definitely prefer complex survival games and ones that are actually hard, but it's pretty hard to argue with the stats sadly

Edited March 8, 2021 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[irontusk341]

Will there be more Tiers added and Rare items themselves like finding, ("Farmer Jack's long Double Barrel" with increased Range, and damage but slower reload?) or (Boiled bob's metal baseball bat, with bonus damage headshot damage.) or (Stevensons Oil dipped Crowbar, with added fire damage, bonus headshot damage and bonus damage to locked doors, and chests but degrades faster)? I was thinking about the Tiers, and thinking instead of tier 1-6 we would have a quality tier like, 

 

Tiers

0. Fragile (Gray)

1. Defective (Brown)

2. Poor Quality (Orange)

3. Rusty (Yellow)

4. Normal (Green)

5. Well built (Blue)

6. High Quality (Pink)

7. Immaculate (Red)

8. Flawless (Gold)

9. Nearly indestructible (Purple)

Just now, pregnable said:

 

True.  The simplifications you have made to 7 days have been great.  Really like the repair kits.  Not that hard to make, but could lead to disaster if you forget to bring one. 

 

I am interested in your next unreal game. 

 

I would love to see a 3rd person game that borrowed heavily from what diablo 2 did right, with their skill system and loot system. 

 

I would also probably copy the combat and spell mechanics from Dragons Dogma with that game.  Dragons Dogma had some great combat, and is one of the few games that really nailed playing as a mage. 

 

 

A Diablo 2/Dragons Dogma hybrid game with survival and building elements, based on dota mechanics, where building requires gold, which you primarily find dungeon crawling and fighting in the open world. 

 

How close am I?

Sounds like Diablo 3D,

[pregnable]

10 minutes ago, irontusk341 said:

Sounds like Diablo 3D,

 

 

Watch that and tell me if you can see my vision, heh. 

[Blake_]

7 hours ago, Khalagar said:

  

 

Devs make anywhere from 25-50+ dollars an hour minimum

 

Two weeks dev time = 80 hours x $30 an hour (lowest realistic minimum you are going to get a veteran dev at and even that is pretty low) = $2,400 worth of dev time solely devoted to adding and programming a zombie shark and trying to make it work in engine etc. Not even getting into the graphic design team having to actually make the visuals

 

7 Days to Die goes on sale like non stop for under 10 dollars, so they would need to sell 240 copies of the game, solely because of the new shark enemy, to actually justify adding the shark. That just isn't the kind of feature that is going to make a potential buyer go "Whoaaa I was on the fence but it has a shark, must buy!" compared to just spending those two weeks adding (...)

I'm sorry, I can't read you over the sound of aquatic threats. Speak to my manager :P.

[Gazz]

13 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Have you been on Steam lately?? They're already ranting about how long it takes between alphas... can't imagine how worse it'll get in a few months. 

But they do this with every alpha so that's nothing new.

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, pregnable said:

Watch that and tell me if you can see my vision, heh. 

I played that game... for some time. Then I got bored and uninstalled it.

Great graphics and animations mind you, but absolutely repetitive after a while.

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Gazz said:

But they do this with every alpha so that's nothing new.

Yes, but maybe it's the pandemic or whatever, they started early this year.

Also, the more years pass, the more the argument "it's taking too long" gains traction, if you know what I mean.

That means people will start giving bad reviews and the game's rating will go down.

 

IMO The Fun Pimps should make a statement in which they officially say they're going to use a business model like (e.g.) Minecraft did, releasing new versions of the game periodically, but never really declaring the game finished for good. Kind of an "ongoing development" model.