MechanicalLens Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Jost Amman said: @Roland I don't know, I'll need to see how the new forge will "feel" before agreeing or not. My concern is not only with the forge, but also with the building materials streamlining and so on... I'm not saying it's negative "per se", I'm just saying TFP should be careful with these kinds of changes since they risk upsetting the nature of the game. This has been a trend for years - creating new systems and then gutting a decent portion them at a later date. It is but the inevitable nature of an alpha title. This happened with LBD, this happened with sticks and sharp rocks, this happened with the inclusion of the perk tree. I'm sure one more major change wouldn't hurt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake_ Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jost Amman said: Frankly, I'm not convinced. You also ignored the part where I was talking about flavor in the game. If I want a simplistic experience with lots of action I'll go play (e.g.) Left 4 Dead. 7D2D has always succeeded in striking a balance between a survival simulation and an action FPS game. TFP seem to be heavily shifting toward the latter, which can be partly ok, but my question is: when is much going to become too much? Oh I see. but I was talking about vanilla, was I not ? Is that not a flavor? . Jokes aside, trust me, there's no flavor in staring or micromanaging a workstation with 5 different timers. We are just WAAAY too used to the forge that it's difficult to see that the change would be for the best. EDIT: Wood is used for a lot of things. Selling it is one of the nice ones, but item crafting, repairing and a whole lot of building are also a bunch of its uses too. A forge needing wood is a must, like the campfire, but it's just not a solid point to maintain smelting due to it balancing wood. Edited March 13, 2021 by Blake_ (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jost Amman Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 @Blake_ As I said to Roland, I need to see the change for myself to tell if I like it or not. And again, you're again going back to the forge, but I'm really talking more in general. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jost Amman Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said: This has been a trend for years - creating new systems and then gutting a decent portion them at a later date. It is but the inevitable nature of an alpha title. This happened with LBD, this happened with sticks and sharp rocks, this happened with the inclusion of the perk tree. I'm sure one more major change wouldn't hurt. There's a big difference between cutting your nails and cutting your @%$#... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCrook1028 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Roland said: So anyway, I think in this instance simplifying the forge to being a workstation would be fine but I would love for a simple and separate smelter to be added and then bring back ingots for the raw iron, brass, and lead that we mine and scavenge. As was brought up, the smelting process is a reason to harvest and use wood. Remove that and a major reason for the existence of wood would be gone. Smelting keeps us needing wood beyond the early game when we build with wood. Totally agree and that's how Undead Legacy does it. Forge smelts into ingots. Blacksmith's Forge crafts those ingots into usable forms. What TFP is considering with the forge being just a simple workstation is just boring and taking more away from the game. As you say, why ever chop down trees then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pregnable Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said: As you say, why ever chop down trees then? Because of what they did to my family... and free honey... But nah, I use a lot of frames and wood, clearing out pois, with the difficulty maxed. Spikes, wood structures, lots of crafting recipes, probably cooking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numberz Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Roland said: So anyway, I think in this instance simplifying the forge to being a workstation would be fine but I would love for a simple and separate smelter to be added and then bring back ingots for the raw iron, brass, and lead that we mine and scavenge. As was brought up, the smelting process is a reason to harvest and use wood. Remove that and a major reason for the existence of wood would be gone. Smelting keeps us needing wood beyond the early game when we build with wood. Roland, while I would agree that your compromise sounds reasonable, you and I both know that it will be ridiculed as a sharp stick and will never, ever be allowed to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, Numberz said: Roland, while I would agree that your compromise sounds reasonable, you and I both know that it will be ridiculed as a sharp stick and will never, ever be allowed to happen. Well...they HAVE been playing a lot of Valheim so you never know. They might be open to pumping out a smelter and simplifying the forge as a pure crafting station. It all depends upon time and resources. Even if they don't, I think a mod that adds a smelter and changes recipes to use ingot versions of iron, brass, and lead would not be too long in coming. I'd use a mod like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pregnable Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, Roland said: Well...they HAVE been playing a lot of Valheim Yeah, and I have a pretty good idea how some of the conversations have been going... MM: "look see, I wanted to simplify a bunch of this crap so we can do some of this other stuff... they did it and it works. Screw it, we are doing it!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowDog1942 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) On 3/13/2021 at 3:12 AM, Jost Amman said: On a serious note... I'm all for streamlining "the process", but what about maintaining some "flavor" in the game? @madmole Don't you think you've gone too far with this simplification process? Is obvious his answer is no, or else he wouldn't want to keep doing this. @MadMole, can we get rid of all the different types of things that you can eat and just call it "food" for simplification sake. Its complicated having to learn how to make all the different types. "food" would be much easier to manage for us non hardcore players. C'mon we cant all have played as much as you.. just think about the new people. Gardening would be much easier as well.... Just having 1 thing called "food Crop" which grows into "food". When u kill animal you get Raw Food. Yes the cooked raw food and picked crops would both end up being called food but hey... gameplay > realism. Edited March 14, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake_ Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Jost Amman said: @Blake_ As I said to Roland, I need to see the change for myself to tell if I like it or not. And again, you're again going back to the forge, but I'm really talking more in general. No problem. I know. You needn't worry about that IMO. They've already done it quite a few times and it's always balance between headaches vs fun. To reduce dev headaches problematic/convoluted mechanics usually get a haircut without losing the core fun. LBD for example, is better than the current system if done like an hybrid with limited training situations. For example get armour to only level with hits by stronger enemies and increasingly less from the weaker ones(kenshi) . But in reality that game took 12 years to make because of that (and it's great). So there has to be a fine line. The current problem is the game still lacks a lot on the RPG side and has been relying on the same general gameplay for a long time. Like you said. We'll see how it goes. I'm fine if I like it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said: Is obvious his answer is no, or else he wouldn't want to keep doing this. @MadMole, can we get rid of all the different types of things that you can eat and just call it "food" for simplification sake. Its complicated having to learn how to make all the different types. "food" would be much easier to manage for us non hardcore players. C'mon we cant all have played as much you as you.. just think about the new people. Gardening would be much easier as well.... Just having 1 thing called "food Crop" which grows into "food". When u kill animal you get Raw Food. Yes the cooked raw food and picked crops would both end up being called food but hey... gameplay > realism. Sounds great but we get to keep all the different soups and ration types though right? I'd just hate for those to get streamlined. /s Edited March 13, 2021 by Gromit sarcasm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gromit said: Sounds great but we get to keep all the different soups and ration types though right? I'd just hate for those to get streamlined. Why not? Having them labelled as "rations" would be much more streamlined vs three different kinds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jost Amman Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 So... when will the next DevStreamline be? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astronomical Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Roland said: Well...they HAVE been playing a lot of Valheim so you never know. You heard it here first! The real reason a20 hasn't dropped yet! 😀 @MechanicalLens has been right about that 2025 release date all along. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Astronomical said: You heard it here first! The real reason a20 hasn't dropped yet! 😀 @MechanicalLens has been right about that 2025 release date all along. 😉 2026. 4 minutes ago, Astronomical said: You heard it here first! The real reason a20 hasn't dropped yet! 😀 @MechanicalLens has been right about that 2025 release date all along. 😉 It's taking TFP so long because they're trying to fix roads. It's proven to be a difficult challenge for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted March 14, 2021 Author Share Posted March 14, 2021 45 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said: It's taking TFP so long because they're trying to fix roads I'm not going to say that there are no wonky roads in A20 but I'm having a tough time finding them. When they show the world that A20 generates you all are going to be very happy. Right now, I would say that the forest almost feels like two separate biomes: Mountain Forest and Flatland Forest and the roads mostly stay in the flatlands going around the mountainous regions. It makes the roads quite nice. The mountainous regions really feel like wilderness areas now. It is such a difference that they could probably thin the trees out in the flat regions and call it plains or...ahem...meadows... The city layouts have been vastly improved as well and a ton of work has been done adding new POI's-- mostly to the Wasteland. The Wasteland Biome might just be star of the show for A20 at least for the exploration game. There is one particular landmark feature of wasteland cities that was recently shown that is just awesome. These are things that I can't wait for them to show on a future dev stream once they feel they are ready to show them. But like I said the Wasteland biome is going to-- I've probably said too much.... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 Just now, Roland said: I'm not going to say that there are no wonky roads in A20 but I'm having a tough time finding them. When they show the world that A20 generates you all are going to be very happy. Right now, I would say that the forest almost feels like two separate biomes: Mountain Forest and Flatland Forest and the roads mostly stay in the flatlands going around the mountainous regions. It makes the roads quite nice. The mountainous regions really feel like wilderness areas now. It is such a difference that they could probably thin the trees out in the flat regions and call it plains or...ahem...meadows... The city layouts have been vastly improved as well and a ton of work has been done adding new POI's-- mostly to the Wasteland. The Wasteland Biome might just be star of the show for A20 at least for the exploration game. There is one particular landmark feature of wasteland cities that was recently shown that is just awesome. These are things that I can't wait for them to show on a future dev stream once they feel they are ready to show them. But like I said the Wasteland biome is going to-- I've probably said too much.... How are POI's that are located in the boonies? In A19 the gravel roads often travel along wacky angles and the POI's themselves cut right into the terrain thus creating vertical cliffs surrounding them, or the chunk the POI is built upon is elevated above the surrounding terrain on most sides. I sincerely hope this is fixed for A20. But overall, this sounds incredibly exciting. Finally some flat terrain! Here is hoping the "flat forests" aren't only a few meters across either and span a fairly decent stretch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted March 14, 2021 Author Share Posted March 14, 2021 That can still be a bit wonky but they are still working on it. I did find one POI that was partially glitched into a mountain side and I saw a report from a QA guy that found a few completely underground so definitely not perfect but much improved already. The flat area was vast. In fact I thought a city must be coming up but it was just wilderness. I guess it could just be that a city was intended there but failed to spawn. I'm trying to think positive... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctoras Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 14 hours ago, Jost Amman said: @Roland I don't know, I'll need to see how the new forge will "feel" before agreeing or not. My concern is not only with the forge, but also with the building materials streamlining and so on... I'm not saying it's negative "per se", I'm just saying TFP should be careful with these kinds of changes since they risk upsetting the nature of the game. I agree, this streamlining and simplification isn't the way to go for me, so I will probably try A20 and gold for a game, but then most likely not play anymore 7D2D .... is that bad? I don't think so. I played the game at it's prime (with hindsight that was A16 to me, despite it's weaknesses), I sunk hundreds of hours into it for little money, what more could I have expected? It's an alpha, so I have to deal with whatever floats the boat. And I got great value for money, so I'll leave it at that, no reason to complain for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowDog1942 Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, STiM_Desario said: @madmole Can you elaborate on this? Are the plans to reconfigure the work flow, or axe the forge? 🤔 I think streamlining everything to be built in 1 station is the best route to go. Its too complicated having built not only a FORGE, but WORKBENCH, AND a chemistry station.. I mean how can you possibly figure out how to build and work all 3 of them. I mean.. The Cement mixer is the nail in the coffin for complexity. Just have one "Crafting Station" that builds everything. Edited March 14, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysexpert Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 28 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said: I think streamlining everything to be built in 1 station is the best route to go. Its too complicated having built not only a FORGE, but WORKBENCH, AND a chemistry station.. I mean how can you possibly figure out how to build and work all 3 of them. I mean.. The Cement mixer is the nail in the coffin for complexity. Just have one "Crafting Station" that builds everything. i actually disagree its not that hard to use all 4 may not be able to all at once but its far from complicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savemulder Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 37 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said: I think streamlining everything to be built in 1 station is the best route to go. Its too complicated having built not only a FORGE, but WORKBENCH, AND a chemistry station.. I mean how can you possibly figure out how to build and work all 3 of them. I mean.. The Cement mixer is the nail in the coffin for complexity. Just have one "Crafting Station" that builds everything. 22 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said: Is obvious his answer is no, or else he wouldn't want to keep doing this. @MadMole, can we get rid of all the different types of things that you can eat and just call it "food" for simplification sake. Its complicated having to learn how to make all the different types. "food" would be much easier to manage for us non hardcore players. C'mon we cant all have played as much as you.. just think about the new people. Gardening would be much easier as well.... Just having 1 thing called "food Crop" which grows into "food". When u kill animal you get Raw Food. Yes the cooked raw food and picked crops would both end up being called food but hey... gameplay > realism. your sarcasm is toxic , or you have a bad sense of humor. there is no place for that here . thank you 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, savemulder said: your sarcasm is toxic , or you have a bad sense of humor. there is no place for that here . thank you Hatred is a beautiful thing when molded and properly nurtured with the right hands. Snowdog's approach is messy and will only create further division. Thank you for your input. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 @SnowDog1942 Next time, voice your criticism in a constructive and helpful manner. The same goes for the rest of you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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