A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[KhaineGB]

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Yeah so this "fanatic" about 60 is annoying me - honestly i played even 24 some games and it was good enough. well i honestly hate modern fps like warzone fortinte because the streamers yt etc but i hope devs will more and more be focues about looks - you know bigger maps , better textures more enemies on screen that 60 fps . 30 was honestly good enough

30 is not enough in an FPS game where your reactions matter, and they do in 7DTD for players who like insane, always run zombies.

Personally, I tweak my settings for it to look "reasonable" but as close to 100fps as possible. I don't care about graphics. I think people need to stop with the nerd @%$#s over graphics.

Minecraft and Rimworld are popular for a reason. They're fun games, with engaging mechanics, and "okay" graphics. We don't need ultra high end AAA crap for a game to be good and I really wish gamers would get off that train.

EDIT: As a note, having OPTIONS is a good thing, but people are struggling to upgrade their PC's right now. Therefore, graphics definitely shouldn't be a priority... at all.

Edited August 8, 2021 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[mrk]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

And as I've said countless times, I'm not against enhancing AAZ with visual cues that show a reason why the zombies woke which wasn't your fault, making them randomly happen, or making it a response to a failed stealth check. I have zero problem with that. My objection is to the idea that AAZ are bad design and that they ruin stealth or invalidate points spent on stealth. Even in their current form, I disagree with that whole premise. This is not a stealth game. It has an agility branch with one aspect being stealth skills that can enhance what the player can already do natively without spending any perk points. The point is to explore a POI and there are a number of tactical choices the player can make as they do that. Looting a POI without a single enemy ever waking up is not one of the design goals even if it may be a personal player goal. But then that is like playing a racing sim and having a personal goal of walking around the entire track and then saying the game is poorly designed because the developers don't allow that to happen even though their goal was always to have players in cars racing and not for players to go for a stroll.

 

So I'm all in for your idea to add a stealth check to the game and make that check harder to pass in some zones and easier in others. But that won't satisfy people who be upset everytime the check fails. Most likely the stealth check won't be visible anyway so players will still get mad that the room "inexplicably" woke up. They certainly won't blame their own failure..lol

 

 

Here is where you are very very wrong. There are a few vociferous people in this forum who are calling for exactly that. They want 100% removal and no halfway compromise will satisfy them. In this very thread there are examples of people saying that AAZ should not exist at all.

 

 

Technically, they already are consistent with how the rest of the game works. There currently are zero stealth checks as in d20 style checks. It is all trigger based. If you step on the trash at a certain distance it triggers wake up. If you jump off that ledge within a certain distance it triggers. There are no probability rolls modified by your perks. There is a distance at which a zombie can see you when it is dark. If you are within that range they will see you. There is no probability roll. If you are outside the range they will not see you. The perks simply adjust the ranges and the triggers and the duration of time the zombies target you.

 

I have a feeling that if the Pimps changed from simple triggers to probability rolls it would just anger the people who want full control to remain in their own hands even more. Can you imagine the rage from someone who feels like they did everything right but then a probability roll screwed them over anyway? But I'm still on board with it since I prefer chance creating hairy situations that I must react to. I think the player being able to control every aspect of their environment is the more boring gameplay. So, yeah. Probability rolls vs stealth skills. Let's do it.

 

 

There are times when I respond to you specifically because I disagree with some specific aspect of what you wrote-- as in the idea that retreat-hide-emerge is some sort of false tactic. But most of the time I am responding to the general group who is against AAZ and want them removed and see them as stealth destroyers instead of stealth game changers. So maybe when I am speaking in general terms you think I'm still talking to you personally? <shrug> You think I'm a puppet bot of the developers anyway so I really don't care what you expect of me. Your assumptions and expectations are skewed.

I think AAZ is a good first step but it needs to be polished into something better. You could easily implement a static creature that triggers the aggression volume. If the stealthy player is good enough and has the power for it, they can kill it fast, otherwise it sounds the alarm. It wouldn't be hard to model and texture a mass of flesh. One simple shader and script could animate the verts of the base mesh and tenticles coming off of it. Three sounds and a bit of code funtionality later and you have something awesome. If your game was easy to mod, I would add the new NPC myself for free. Something like so...

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, mrk said:

If your game was easy to mod

 

Is it not?

[TWORDY]

18 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

30 is not enough in an FPS game where your reactions matter, and they do in 7DTD for players who like insane, always run zombies.

Personally, I tweak my settings for it to look "reasonable" but as close to 100fps as possible. I don't care about graphics. I think people need to stop with the nerd @%$#s over graphics.

Minecraft and Rimworld are popular for a reason. They're fun games, with engaging mechanics, and "okay" graphics. We don't need ultra high end AAA crap for a game to be good and I really wish gamers would get off that train.

EDIT: As a note, having OPTIONS is a good thing, but people are struggling to upgrade their PC's right now. Therefore, graphics definitely shouldn't be a priority... at all.

 

Playing at 120 frames per second is enough to track the targets in fast-paced shooters, even at a 75hz refresh rate. 200 frames seem perfect in some titles. There is no need for me to unlock the frames further to get rid of as much input lag on the mouse. To have the maximum handicap obviously everything is set to LOW settings.

I treat 7DTD as a casual game, perfect for killing the time with mates. Co-op game rather than a competitive title. Having more than 60 frames is just more than enough in

 

7DTD. I may survive even if the game goes down to 30 frames because of Screamers at LVL5 POI - guys please look into the Screamers spawning system while doing 5th LVL missions. There should be an option to prevent spawning Screamers within the mission range. My framerate just goes down drastically, especially while I`m hosting the game on my PC for 3-5 of my companions.

 

I played a few moments of Warzone and did not like it. Also, I spent 5 minutes in Rusts game menus and never played multiplayer.

[mrk]

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Is it not?

Not really, especially when it comes to this type of content. Maybe if it was a simple xml job but it isnt. 7 Days is easy to reconfigure and add simple items to. Scripting a new AI with custom scripts and so on is much more complicated to mod in.

[MechanicalLens]

14 hours ago, weaponspec said:

How will this affect existing prefabs? I've also heard talk of certain type of blocks being removed altogether. I'm sure other prefabbers would like to know which blocks to avoid.

 

I hope that wood or iron sheets aren't removed. They were very effective at stopping zombie spawns in a POI you took over (if the LCB radius wasn't big enough), or to cover up the small gaps in between a block and a piece of terrain.

[stallionsden]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

That was stallionsden's interpretation of what I said (troll)... what I actually said was quite different: I said that since you're a moderator and the main spokesperson for TFP, you already mostly agree with TFP's point of view. So I'd expect from you the same kind of response the devs would give in defense of the "status quo". It's very different being part of a group and (mostly) agreeing with their shared view vs. "being their puppet" (which I'd never think of you, of course). 

Oh gosh still chucking that tanty and twisting words to suit your agenda. 

 

Throwing names only reflects on you. Making things up as you go. ***yawn***  .

 

 

[KhaineGB]

1 hour ago, TWORDY said:

 

Playing at 120 frames per second is enough to track the targets in fast-paced shooters, even at a 75hz refresh rate. 200 frames seem perfect in some titles. There is no need for me to unlock the frames further to get rid of as much input lag on the mouse. To have the maximum handicap obviously everything is set to LOW settings.

I treat 7DTD as a casual game, perfect for killing the time with mates. Co-op game rather than a competitive title. Having more than 60 frames is just more than enough in

 

7DTD. I may survive even if the game goes down to 30 frames because of Screamers at LVL5 POI - guys please look into the Screamers spawning system while doing 5th LVL missions. There should be an option to prevent spawning Screamers within the mission range. My framerate just goes down drastically, especially while I`m hosting the game on my PC for 3-5 of my companions.

 

I played a few moments of Warzone and did not like it. Also, I spent 5 minutes in Rusts game menus and never played multiplayer.

Run the dedi server and have people connect to that.

Uses more RAM but splits the load across your cores better in my experience.

[stallionsden]

3 hours ago, hiemfire said:

 

While I can see how it can appear this way, the different "states" are allot more distributed and granularly different than that. Using the current disagreement as an example:

 

I believe that Attack Volumes are a ham fisted and lazy dramatic event kludge that should have never been implemented in the first place. Since they are in the game I'd love to see them replaced with something along the lines of a more consistent challenge for stealthers (Stealth actually needs some tweaking to becoming a bit more difficult period but that is another issue). But I'm willing to accept TFP implementing an adjustment that keeps the dramatic effect for other play styles while also tweaking the trigger conditions to reference what the player has invested in From The Shadows (FTS) and having something subtle and easily missed in game that indicates there is something off (Please don't tie it to the game music. I have that turned of since it has a very bad tendency to drown out the sounds I depend on to know when an enemy is near).

 

I think Jost Ammon, Survager and dscobral are somewhere in that vicinity, though they may not hold the same opinion I have on the original implementation.

 

Gamida is completely neutral from what I can tell and would enjoy it either changing or remaining as it is.

 

pApA^LeGBa doesn't like them because there is no explanation to the player about what just happened when an Attack Volume triggers, but is fine with them existing otherwise. In fact I think they agree with me that some tweaking is needed to stealth aside from Attack Volumes.

 

Roland, if I have been reading their posts correctly, loves Attack Volumes, is iffy about having them reference FTS for their triggering and is willing to accept a subtle indicator that there is one there or something that gives a quick visual reference explanation to the player about what happened if the player is paying attention.

 

Stallionsden loves the attack volumes and doesn't want anything changed about them since they get a thrill out of the sudden adrenalin rush from the unexpected combat. Erroneously thinks that the point of our issue with Attack Volumes is that they stop us from having an easy path to the end loot. (The craptacular rng cookie fests at the end of the POIs are really nothing more than an indication I finished the POI to me. The best loot is the scrap you find on the way there.)

Actually there isnt a problem with stealth. To get to the loot room and get it without fighting for it in the 'loot room' you may as well play with zs off. 

alot of people love the oh @%$# moments where they walk in a poi and go thru it and suddenly a z or few drop on them or get to the loot room and having to fight those zs to the big loot in that room, if you can stealth thru every volume why the hell have zs turned on if you want to always avoid them. or can grab the loot easily.

Everything in the game has a counter. This is by design not a flaw or bug

those who like to run and gun = make noise awakes up more zs get to loot room. 

those whom like stealth = sneak but possible attack volumes that foil stealth on purpose

those whom use melee or what not. 

yeh i love the attack volumes i love stealth. 

and you said it the unexpected combat. even if you been in that poi before the next time you could get more zs or less zs or zs in different spots then you remember. 

nothing wrong with stealth and having a counter to stealthing cause it is a zombie apocalypse and to go past every z and grabbing loot and leaving is really quite fun killing.  

There are many that love the stealth and the oh crap moments also and earning the loot room reward.


 

Edited August 8, 2021 by stallionsden (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

5 hours ago, hiemfire said:

 

While I can see how it can appear this way, the different "states" are allot more distributed and granularly different than that. Using the current disagreement as an example:

 

I believe that Attack Volumes are a ham fisted and lazy dramatic event kludge that should have never been implemented in the first place. Since they are in the game I'd love to see them replaced with something along the lines of a more consistent challenge for stealthers (Stealth actually needs some tweaking to becoming a bit more difficult period but that is another issue). But I'm willing to accept TFP implementing an adjustment that keeps the dramatic effect for other play styles while also tweaking the trigger conditions to reference what the player has invested in From The Shadows (FTS) and having something subtle and easily missed in game that indicates there is something off (Please don't tie it to the game music. I have that turned of since it has a very bad tendency to drown out the sounds I depend on to know when an enemy is near).

 

I think Jost Ammon, Survager and dscobral are somewhere in that vicinity, though they may not hold the same opinion I have on the original implementation.

 

Gamida is completely neutral from what I can tell and would enjoy it either changing or remaining as it is.

 

pApA^LeGBa doesn't like them because there is no explanation to the player about what just happened when an Attack Volume triggers, but is fine with them existing otherwise. In fact I think they agree with me that some tweaking is needed to stealth aside from Attack Volumes.

 

Roland, if I have been reading their posts correctly, loves Attack Volumes, is iffy about having them reference FTS for their triggering and is willing to accept a subtle indicator that there is one there or something that gives a quick visual reference explanation to the player about what happened if the player is paying attention.

 

Stallionsden loves the attack volumes and doesn't want anything changed about them since they get a thrill out of the sudden adrenalin rush from the unexpected combat. Erroneously thinks that the point of our issue with Attack Volumes is that they stop us from having an easy path to the end loot. (The craptacular rng cookie fests at the end of the POIs are really nothing more than an indication I finished the POI to me. The best loot is the scrap you find on the way there.)

 

I'm alittle sad I didn't get included.

 

Joking aside, I like attack volumes but would be okay with giving stealth players some love somehow as long as some effort is still involved.

 

Also, I don't think anyone is asking for full loot room ninja clears although that statement has been made a few times now.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Is it not?

Seems pretty easy to me for like 90% of stuff

[Gazz]

19 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't even know if TFP did initially think of "restealth" as a way for the AGI player to overcome auto-attack rooms when they created the auto-attack room feature. But it is available in the game and nobody can say this is an unnatural strategy for an agility player.

Incidentally there is a stealth perk that greatly lowers the time after which enemies forget about you and you can be stealthy again.

Coincidence?

[Jugginator]

4 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Incidentally there is a stealth perk that greatly lowers the time after which enemies forget about you and you can be stealthy again.

Coincidence?

And it does indeed work like a charm. As part of testers gonna test (lol), one of the things I've tested a lot.

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, stallionsden said:

Oh gosh still chucking that tanty and twisting words to suit your agenda. 

 

Throwing names only reflects on you. Making things up as you go. ***yawn***  .

I'm not twisting words, I think you're simply lying to prove your point. You said that playing stealth is like playing 7D2D with mannequins and that you like the AAZs as they are.

So, what is it? Are you using stealth, or are you clearing POIs mostly by fighting in the open?

 

If you do use stealth, then it means you've basically been criticizing your own play style all along, and that you're a hypocrite.

If you're clearing POIs without stealth, then you prove my point, and you're also a liar.

[stallionsden]

19 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm not twisting words, I think you're simply lying to prove your point. You said that playing stealth is like playing 7D2D with mannequins and that you like the AAZs as they are.

So, what is it? Are you using stealth, or are you clearing POIs mostly by fighting in the open?

 

If you do use stealth, then it means you've basically been criticizing your own play style all along, and that you're a hypocrite.

If you're clearing POIs without stealth, then you prove my point, and you're also a liar.

Yawn. 

Lmao that all you got haha more twisting words  to suit your agenda.. hilarious 

 

Does it make you feel big twisting words and making stuff up..  that nose grows bigger each time you write cause that is hilarious to. 

 

Anyways since you can't read properly I will leave you to your little fantasy bubble. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[meganoth]

Jost, stallions, I don't think you two made any real progress in understanding each other the last couple of posts. Maybe it is time to accept that you are from different planets and don't understand each others strange language.

 

 

 

[Outlaw_187]

On 8/6/2021 at 1:40 PM, BFT2020 said:

Indiana / Kentucky / Michigan

 

Take your pick on which area you think a normal zombie lives in   😆

You left out Ohio.......there's quite a few freaky looking "zombie" type folks here!!

[BFT2020]

44 minutes ago, Outlaw_187 said:

You left out Ohio.......there's quite a few freaky looking "zombie" type folks here!!

Never lived there, so didn’t include Ohio.  I hav e driven through Ohio, but didn’t think that counted. 😀

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

30 is not enough in an FPS game where your reactions matter, and they do in 7DTD for players who like insane, always run zombies.

Personally, I tweak my settings for it to look "reasonable" but as close to 100fps as possible. I don't care about graphics. I think people need to stop with the nerd @%$#s over graphics.

Minecraft and Rimworld are popular for a reason. They're fun games, with engaging mechanics, and "okay" graphics. We don't need ultra high end AAA crap for a game to be good and I really wish gamers would get off that train.

EDIT: As a note, having OPTIONS is a good thing, but people are struggling to upgrade their PC's right now. Therefore, graphics definitely shouldn't be a priority... at all.

honestly i maybe have diffrent way of thinking : in morrowind you could kill strong enemy with weak enemy if you have enough time and you find his hitbox first. this same problem with cod : how knife have almost this same range as sledgehammer?? well our character hold this  almost if you want drive a nail but forget when put his sledgehammer. sledgehammers works good in 7dtd but in my opinon they have too short range.  honestly well i loves graphic of horizon zero dawn - well smal details like - design of bows , how grass is moving ,even small thing like aloy as kid have dirty feet because she is barefoot which i quiet rare in games( well except a plague tale and old the surrfering). i know 7dtd have diffrent gender but for  example - better was if 7dtd have more zombies but weaker that a small number of zombie- well ( i will shot the number) 15 zombies in skyscrapper is small number. but 40? could be rly good. so honestly i could sacrife fps to get more zombies on screen. well in past in cod waw zombies was stronger with everyround because... there were limit of 32 enemies in this same time on map. this way  transit in bo2 have fog and is smaller that it should be. but things are changing and now we have big maps in outbreake and more zombies on maps with shorter respawn. you are making mods if i good remember right?  so you know how this works. Mc is popular ( i don't know anything about rimworld so i don't want to talk about it)  but get graphic updates you know lighting , change ores , change looks of items etc and well offworld trading company have quiet simple  because of gameplay but  detailed graphic. so wat is my point in 7dtd? well HD zombies models looks rly good but small number of zombie variants give me  bad feeling. good old l4d2 have a lot of zombie variants - like girl in dress , girl in thirt and leggins , girl in thirt pants and barefoot etc so you don't have feeling you kill almost this same guy . so this should be piority for future in 7dtd because even if zombie looks good when you saw this same 2 guys going in one house it looks just bad. so  graphic is important to me because well. i liked outbreake in cod but after a hour i saw everywhere this same girl in winterjacket in looks just annoing and give you feeling you waste your time. in base round maps like firebaze you have a lot of diffrent variants and this keep me on this maps ( yeah i have strange point of view)

12 hours ago, hiemfire said:

This one?

 It is similar to some suggestions that have popped up previously, in other threads on the subject, and is one I don't have an issue with. While adding more zombies may not be in the cards, your idea could make an interesting alt spawn and AI package for the spider zombie. I do recall someone bringing something up along these lines to faatal a month or so ago, not as part of the ongoing Attack Volume disagreement but more as building on the game's theme, and I think he replied that setting up spawn locations like that would be tricky to do with how they have the sleeper spawning coded. I'm not 100% on that though.

well this can be problem so the better idea could be " sounds" traps like fake floors, stumblers etc. but what i mean it can  be find a solution which will be good for both sides

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Jost, stallions, I don't think you two made any real progress in understanding each other the last couple of posts. Maybe it is time to accept that you are from different planets and don't understand each others strange language.

 

 

 

honestly @meganoth problem is they will hold their line for all cost.

i know i don't have right in every sitation so i'm looking for alternative solutions -for example madmole  won't zombie teens in 7dtd? so maybe anymodder will and them @ErrorNull is working on it but maybe for example faatal with some artist will make mod to add them- this way only who want to be there can install this mod so there will be any problems with law and controversy because this is mod not offical update

[Matt115]

38 minutes ago, Yeppi said:

@Madmole / faatal 

1. Can you tell us please, how many alphas there are still to gold? Is A20 possibly A21 the last or are A22,23,24.. coming??

I love the game, but I would like to build something big again, since I built 2 castles with 250K and 300K blocks in over 500 hours in A11 and they didn't work after a big update, since then I don't dare to build big 

 

2. Or can you insert a function that creates a blueprint of buildings?

 

3. With A11 you added beautiful caves, which unfortunately were changed in one of the later alphas, i think it was a15 or a16, and from then on they are unfortunately no longer so beautiful. It used to be a real labyrinths, but now are small and unspectacular. Any chance we can get the old caves back? 

 

4. In the past, every animal dropped different meat, resulting in different recipes with different buff, you were proud to have killed a bear and cooked excellent stew from bear meat, or I chased half a map of a chicken with a stone ax to make a roast leg, which I got today you always get the same meat, whether chicken, bear, rabbit, pork, why should you take the risk of chasing a bear when you can kill a rabbit with a bazooka? Can we have different types of meat again, so that it is also worthwhile to hunt a bear, for example? Can you perhaps add old recipes again, so that it is worthwhile to hunt dangerous animals again?

 

5. In the past you could crawl through 1 block, it would be possible to insert this again, e.g. that you can turn it on or off in settings (if it has been made away because of pvp)?

 

I would be happy if you could answer some questions, especially if all of them😊.  (everything translated by google translate, no liability for errors 😃 )

okay so : 1 idk 

2. idk

3. probably caves will be added in a20 or a21 with more stuff connected  with rwg

4. well bigger animal= more meat right? this was problem in this past because you could have not enough meat to do food so it was annoying so they simplified this to be more "fun"

5 itdk

[JCrook1028]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

3. probably caves will be added in a20 or a21 with more stuff connected  with rwg

I've never seen anything close to that coming from a Dev. Sure you're not just making that up?

[Laz Man]

21 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

I've never seen anything close to that coming from a Dev. Sure you're not just making that up?

 

I haven't heard anything about caves.  Some sewer stuff in tiles were talked about.  Maybe wishful thinking...😁

[Matt115]

20 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

I've never seen anything close to that coming from a Dev. Sure you're not just making that up?

i'm sure it was say about "undergrounds" so this can mean , tunels , roads bases caves .  so i'm sure 100% it will be thing under the surface

Just now, Laz Man said:

 

I haven't heard anything about caves.  Some sewer stuff in tiles were talked about.  Maybe wishful thinking...😁

this can have sens - well sewers are underground so maybe it was going about this

[OLlIiee]

I really like this new decorations  but  they dont blend with s surrounding and it looks artificial.

I would like to see decorations with which we can interact and should be useful , e.g. a hanging weapon on the wall, radio with music and we can search for new music and add to the radio this game is about building so  why we cant interact more with our home. Meaby  you should update 7 days to die on the NEWEST CONSOLE SONY with new Dualschock 5 it could give you new possibilities and more players.

The Game OPTIMALIZATION  is so BAD this game is keep updating but optimalization is the same!!!   WHY?!

Meaby a deer head trophy on the wall as a decorations.     

Meaby you should add fog in the horde night?