A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[hiemfire]

5 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

I assume you're talking about Bart's Salvage.

Yep.

4 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

IMHO, that's more a matter of bad design than stealth targeting. It has these places you go up a ladder to reach and the zombie only spawn 1m away from you when you get at the top. Zombie shouldn't magically appear in front of you, period.

Maybe so.

[MechanicalLens]

7 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

IMHO, that's more a matter of bad design than stealth targeting. It has these places you go up a ladder to reach and the zombie only spawn 1m away from you when you get at the top. Zombie shouldn't magically appear in front of you, period.

 

And they should especially not spawn in front of you mid-swing.

[Laz Man]

9 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

And lets be honest, have any of you stopped and asked what the zombie's attentions are?  Maybe they are just lonely and happen to be aggressive huggers  😉

 

And magic already exists in the game.  How do you explain the sheer amount of small rocks you can carry around and not be encumbered?  😁

 

 

Re: stealth and attack volumes

 

I have brought up the question about attack volumes and stealth and it sounds like maybe in the future there could be some way to stealth them but that will mostly likely not be addressed in A20 though.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 hours ago, dcsobral said:

Some sleepers will always wake up as soon as you enter their volume. Well, it's the volume that's the guilty party, not the sleeper, but that's a technical detail.

 
Exactly. Some. As in a small percentage of the overall sleeper population. “Fixing” that would make 100% of the sleepers remain asleep 100% of the time. The POI that Heimfire complains of is one out of hundreds. One POI that requires a different approach to stealth because of the overwhelming instances of automatic awakening that occurs in that particular POI. (Other POIs have volumes that automatically trigger but again it is usually only one or two rooms out of the entire POI where you get 95% of that super awesome shoot-a-comatose-body gameplay and 5% kill something that moves and attacks you super boring gameplay)

 

As I stated, some people are very interested in extremely consistent, samey, predictable, and non-challenging gameplay vs unconscious enemies.

<shrug>

To each their own, but I hope the current variety of POI zombie encounters only grow rather than shrink. As @meganoth stated, allowing nearby outdoor zombies to sense us through walls rather than implementing a more realistic muffling effect of sound is one way to keep that variety. 
 

2 hours ago, dcsobral said:

IMHO, that's more a matter of bad design than stealth targeting. It has these places you go up a ladder to reach and the zombie only spawn 1m away from you when you get at the top. Zombie shouldn't magically appear in front of you, period.

Situations like this should definitely be fixed. Ideally, you should never see zombies spawn in. This might not be always possible outdoors but indoors it should be designed so that they spawn in well before a player can see the area in which they spawn. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

56 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Re: stealth and attack volumes

 

I have brought up the question about attack volumes and stealth and it sounds like maybe in the future there could be some way to stealth them

That will be a sad day for gameplay variety if you succeed. People who like to only kill the unconscious will rejoice I suppose…

 

hmmmm…maybe we should bring up horde nights and see if we can get stealth working for them by having all the zombies spawn in asleep so they can be one shot killed. Moving targets really need to be fixed. Zombie statues ftw!

Edited August 6, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Are you surprised when people already want to be able to always kill every zombie as it sleeps and if one should occasionally wake up and offer a different experience then the whole exploration game is ruined?

Are you playing the same game we do? The problem is quite the opposite... stealth is so broken in specific situations that you can almost always go up to a sleeper with a full helmet light on, break stuff around it, and it never wakes up. Too easy, but most of all, unfairly OP for us.

 

The problem is not that we want stealth to be OP, the problem is that we want stealth to be believable and consistent.

[Roland]

8 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Are you playing the same game we do? The problem is quite the opposite... stealth is so broken in specific situations that you can almost always go up to a sleeper with a full helmet light on, break stuff around it, and it never wakes up. Too easy, but most of all, unfairly OP for us.

 

The problem is not that we want stealth to be OP, the problem is that we want stealth to be believable and consistent.

lol…I’m all for THAT being fixed. But have you been reading the same forums the rest of us are reading? The main complaint over the past year that comes up again and again is that in a small percentage of rooms, zombies wake up and aggro regardless of what the player does.

 

What you are talking about is a separate issue and one that those who like to kill stationary targets….probably prefer. 

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

lol…I’m all for THAT being fixed. But have you been reading the same forums the rest of us are reading? The main complaint over the past year that comes up again and again is that in a small percentage of rooms, zombies wake up and aggro regardless of what the player does.

 

What you are talking about is a separate issue and one that those who like to kill stationary targets….probably prefer. 

So we're on the same page on that, great.

The auto-aggro zones IMO are also a problem and, as you know, have been discussed to death, so I won't raise the dead horse here....

 

However, IMO, the auto-aggro zones could also be corrected with much less effort than the other stuff. My "uneducated guess" is that they should just change the check they do in the auto-aggro zones from 100% fail to <put_whatever_percent_you_think_is_balanced_here>% vs. the Player Stealth Skill: problem solved. They won't even need to rework every single POI to do this.

[meganoth]

26 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

So we're on the same page on that, great.

The auto-aggro zones IMO are also a problem and, as you know, have been discussed to death, so I won't raise the dead horse here....

 

However, IMO, the auto-aggro zones could also be corrected with much less effort than the other stuff. My "uneducated guess" is that they should just change the check they do in the auto-aggro zones from 100% fail to <put_whatever_percent_you_think_is_balanced_here>% vs. the Player Stealth Skill: problem solved. They won't even need to rework every single POI to do this.

I could live with that solution.

 

[Adam the Waster]

14 hours ago, Matt115 said:

sight now we need laser guns. great job adam great job, now i must change timeline before someone from TFP read it

Just add a rivet gun and a Saw blade launcher then we got a deal

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

That will be a sad day for gameplay variety if you succeed. People who like to only kill the unconscious will rejoice I suppose…

 

hmmmm…maybe we should bring up horde nights and see if we can get stealth working for them by having all the zombies spawn in asleep so they can be one shot killed. Moving targets really need to be fixed. Zombie statues ftw!

I never said that attack volumes should be completely removed or 100% stealthable...😅

 

As someone who likes to make POIs, I feel attack volumes are a great addition that allows designers to create suspenseful scripted sequences similar to those seen in movies and TV shows.  Being able to stealth through them completely would ruin them.

 

I am hoping for more of a middle ground solution than anything else.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[dcsobral]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

 
Exactly. Some. As in a small percentage of the overall sleeper population.

If only that were so. If only it were a handful of POI. That's just not the case, and even if that was the case, it still breaks stealth play. Is there any situation where pain tolerance or healing factor doesn't work at all? No. Any zombie through which a bullet will not passthrough no matter the level in Penetrator, or any mine that will always detonate no matter the Infiltrator? No. Are the combat situations where Sex T. does not apply? No. In fact, is there any other skill at all that is completely disabled under any circumstances at all? None that I can think of. And the stealth skills are one of the few non-combat skills that require level 10 to max out.

 

Sleepers that cannot be sneaked by at all not only renders both of agility's Stealth Perks useless, it negates the bow's stealth damage advantage, three Night Stalker books and Night Stalker's completion bonus.

 

And it's not like the opposite would be non-challenging as you state. No, the challenge will be sneaking, instead of fighting. Every time a sleeper does not wake up you won a fight against that zombie. It requires skill from the player, it requires investment in perks and equipment, it requires planning. And every time the zombie wakes up, the zombie wins: you are now in a vulnerable position -- crouched --, yielding a weapon with lousy DPS, with very light armor and, ah, yes, you invested in stealth, not in pain tolerance or healing factor or sex t. or cardio. And fighting that single zombie that woke up risk waking up everyone else and completely negating the only advantage you have.

 

But here you are pretending killing a sleeper stealthily is an automatic thing without risk or challenge or skill. You see the final result, the last second, and act like there was no work involved in getting to that last second and that it was a guaranteed thing.

 

Now, I could even stomach it if this "feature" was uncommon or restricted to situations where it makes sense to heighten the tension, but I'll give you numerous examples of tiers 1 and 2 POIs with such spaces. Where sleepers in the first room will wake up. 

 

So you invest 36 skill points to max out stealth, you are wearing padded armor everywhere except your quality 5 stealth military boots (because you can't get a quality 6 of that), you got all the Urban Combat and Night Stalker magazines, it's night and you are using your night vision goggles. You crouch and slowly move inside a tier 2 house. All zombies wake up automatically. Tell me how that's not a broken stealth mechanics.

 

9 hours ago, Roland said:

That will be a sad day for gameplay variety if you succeed. People who like to only kill the unconscious will rejoice I suppose…

 

hmmmm…maybe we should bring up horde nights and see if we can get stealth working for them by having all the zombies spawn in asleep so they can be one shot killed. Moving targets really need to be fixed. Zombie statues ftw!

Strawman. Not only no one said anything about horde nights, but no one is asking for zombies that cannot wake up. We, the sneaky, are asking for zombies that might not wake up if we are careful and lucky. We are already incurring in a penalty on horde nights for having invested points in skills that will not help at all there and weapons with lousy DPS and crowd control.

 

If I was to ask for something on horde night it would be for the possibility of staying hidden so I could get sneaky attacks against moving zombies. Instead of automatically going for me, just go for my general whereabouts and start destroying everything to flush me out. But, hey, we can't get sleeping zombies to stay sleeping on a tier 1 POI at night against the stealthiest PC possibly, so we don't even bother bringing this stuff up. But here it is so next time you don't have to restort to strawmen.
 

[dcsobral]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

I never said that attack volumes should be completely removed or 100% stealthable...😅

 

As someone who likes to make POIs, I feel attack volumes are a great addition that allows designers to create suspenseful scripted sequences similar to those seen in movies and TV shows.  Being able to stealth through them completely would ruin them.

 

I am hoping for more of a middle ground solution than anything else.

Make it a timer. You can only stay there so long before they wake up. That creates tension. Having zombies automatically wake up every time you enter a particular region isn't tension, it's just an f you from the designer to the stealth player.

 

Or add a noise multiplier to sleeper volumes, to represent architecture and materials that will naturally amplify sounds (perfect for church_01), and a light multiplier to represent clear lines of sight that would make staying hidden impossible (but, hey, they are sleeping, so it doesn't mean they wake up automatically!).

 

Attack volumes are an awful feature that are not only targeting a single play style, but making that style not harder but impossible. And it's not like POIs aren't strewn with noise making litter, lights aimed at sleeper volume entrances, and things that need to be destroyed. I'm all for sleeper volumes that are harder to sneak through, but attack volumes aren't challenging. Something that isn't impossible isn't a challenge, it's just impossible.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by dcsobral (see edit history)

[stallionsden]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

So we're on the same page on that, great.

The auto-aggro zones IMO are also a problem and, as you know, have been discussed to death, so I won't raise the dead horse here....

 

However, IMO, the auto-aggro zones could also be corrected with much less effort than the other stuff. My "uneducated guess" is that they should just change the check they do in the auto-aggro zones from 100% fail to <put_whatever_percent_you_think_is_balanced_here>% vs. the Player Stealth Skill: problem solved. They won't even need to rework every single POI to do this.

Stealth  should be cancelled when a volume is set to attack.  The attack works perfectly  and does what it is suppose to do. 

 

You shouldn't be able to stealth a attack volume. 

[hiemfire]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

great addition that allows designers to create suspenseful scripted sequences similar to those seen in movies and TV shows.

So why do we even have keyboard/mouse and controller input beyond "Click for next scene" if the POI designers want to make the game into a sequence of predetermined triggers...

 

Being able to fail is important. Being forced to fail is abuse.

44 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

You shouldn't be able to stealth a attack volume. 

Attack volumes shouldn't exist.

[Laz Man]

6 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

So why do we even have keyboard/mouse and controller input beyond "Click for next scene" if the POI designers want to make the game into a sequence of predetermined triggers...

 

Being able to fail is important. Being forced to fail is abuse.

 

And thats why I said I was hoping for some middle ground since I can emphatize with stealth inclined play styles.  On the other hand, scripted sequences is one reason why movies and other similar entertainment media is so memorable over the years and see the value in having them in a video game.  You may disagree and that's okay.  We all can have different opinions.

51 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

Stealth  should be cancelled when a volume is set to attack.  The attack works perfectly  and does what it is suppose to do. 

 

You shouldn't be able to stealth a attack volume. 

 

If that was the final design/intention I would agree with you.  HOWEVER, I feel then there should be some more clear indications to the player when stealth abilities are applicable and when it isn't.  I can see how it would suck to spend time/energy (and skill points) into sneaking into an area then being surprised it is all for naught....

Edited August 6, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

And thats why I said I was hoping for some middle ground since I can emphatize with stealth inclined play styles.  On the other hand, scripted sequences is one reason why movies and other similar entertainment media is so memorable over the years and see the value in having them in a video game.  You may disagree and that's okay.  We all can have different opinions.

well if we talk about opinions - that's why i love l4d2 - mix of scripts ( blowing up something calling helicopter etc) and random things- sometimes you have witch in door , sometimes you get explosive ammo with lasers but you have uzi etc.

[unholyjoe]

17 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

So why do we even have keyboard/mouse and controller input beyond "Click for next scene" if the POI designers want to make the game into a sequence of predetermined triggers...

 

Being able to fail is important. Being forced to fail is abuse.

Attack volumes shouldn't exist.

that would be like questioning all those who make those halloween scare attractions (haunted houses). its predetermined but if player/participant deviates from the path, then the out come can be different and or undesirable.  which is why most of the ones i helped to create were made in a way that we led the people in a specific path.

but more to your statement... in our game, you are not forced.. we have a path of intention and however you proceed is up to you.

 

bottom line on that is... you have a "choice to make"

 

as for attack volumes shouldnt exist.. totally disagree as those are where some of us enjoy the thrill of knowing we will get attacked (we dont know by how many) because of rng in the volume spawns and we or some of us will try to figure a way to take them out without call more.. then we progress to next area.

 

but again.. not fighting here just making a note... its all about choice and how you proceed. there is always going to be 50 ways around getting something done.

Edited August 6, 2021 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

13 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I can see how it would suck to spend time/energy (and skill points) into sneaking into an area then being surprised it is all for naught....

It's like having someone come up and kick a ladder out from under you while you're painting 2 stories up... Yah, you could always just put it back up and do it again (break line of sight and wait out the cooldown during the day), if the ladder or you don't break, but the ladder has already been kicked out from under you once...

 

A painting simile:

A run & gunner uses a sprayer on a long stick. It's sloppy, but it gets the job done.

The Int player builds up scaffolding first, then does the job.

The stealther is up on a tall ladder using a brush by hand.

 

If the poi devs or game devs don't think the cost/risk of failure is high enough for stealth, then kicking the ladder out from under the stealther while leaving the the run & gunner and Int players more or less alone to do things as they normally do is one of the worst ways to do it. The contrast between the forced nature of attack volumes and the otherwise player action dependent nature of stealth, especially when the player has taken the time to look at and figure out how their equipment and perks interact beyond "Dur, dis do more dawmawge if I'z sneeky", and equip accordingly is huge.  Seriously, if it wasn't for muffled connectors working on chest and leg armor I wouldn't be bothering with even padded armor due to how the game chops off the full value in its displaying of the stats but retains the undisplayed portion for its internal calculations. Meaning that what the game is showing you as 0 could very well be a 0.2, a 0.8 or some other number. Though padded is the best armor for stealth if you're going to wear armor.

 

40 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

And thats why I said I was hoping for some middle ground since I can emphatize with stealth inclined play styles.

A middle ground that involves giving a stealth player an actual chance at not having their time invested completely ignored I can get behind. Even if it means somehow increasing the difficulty for stealth in other areas. Outside at night, namely with the roaming predator's and zombies, could use some tweaking into the more difficult direction for example.

 

49 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

but more to your statement... in our game, you are not forced.. we have a path of intention and however you proceed is up to you.

 

bottom line on that is... you have a "choice to make"

 

When the POI is metal and stone and the path laid out doesn't permit sneaking through key points in it then the choice comes down to "run & gun" or abandoning the quest. Especially when you're around level 20...

 

56 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

that would be like questioning all those who make those halloween scare attractions (haunted houses). its predetermined but if player/participant deviates from the path, then the out come can be different and or undesirable.  which is why most of the ones i helped to create were made in a way that we led the people in a specific path.

 

The person walking through the haunted maze is not supposed to be assaulted either (allot don't permit the workers to touch the people walking the maze at all)... A distinct difference between your example and what our characters have happen which shapes the entire experience. Haunted house/maze jump scares don't have someone trying to crack your skull open or tear chunks out of you. The POIs in game are lethal.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, dcsobral said:

If only that were so. If only it were a handful of POI. That's just not the case, and even if that was the case, it still breaks stealth play.

It is more than a handful of POIs true but  usually only one or two rooms out of all the rooms in the POI. This has already been proven as there is a flag in the code that makes a room an attack volume. 
 

Also the problem is much overblown as it has also been proven that people accuse rooms of being attack volumes that are not attack volumes. (It’s easier on the ego to blame the room instead of your own stealth skills, see?)

 

Also, I disagree that it breaks stealth play. It has been shown and proven that it, in fact, opens the door to more stealth play. Hiding in shadows from searching enemies and then re-emerging to assassinate those enemies undetected is classic stealth gameplay. 
 

In fact, I can’t think of a single stealth game in existence where every single enemy is asleep and you never need to use stealthy skills against moving sentries that are actively searching. Probably because it would be super boring.

[hiemfire]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Also, I disagree that it breaks stealth play. It has been shown and proven that it, in fact, opens the door to more stealth play.

Kicking the ladder out from under the painter just means they have the chance to put the ladder back up again...

[Roland]

Painting a border, setting up a ladder, and climbing up the ladder are all activities. I get it. You just want to paint. Only paint. Paint and paint and paint to exclusion of all else. I’ve been making the same point. Some of us like to break up the painting stealth with the set the ladder back up stealth and the climb the ladder stealth because then it isn’t just painting all the time. 

EDIT

Heck, I just realized that sticking the landing skillfully after the ladder gets kicked is another activity that adds variety and can be related to a type of stealthy gameplay 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

Painting a border, setting up a ladder, and climbing up the ladder are all activities. I get it. You just want to paint. Only paint. Paint and paint and paint to exclusion of all else. I’ve been making the same point. Some of us like to break up the painting stealth with the set the ladder back up stealth and the climb the ladder stealth because then it isn’t just painting all the time. 

paint paint panit panit in blaaaaaaaaaaackkkk

[hiemfire]

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

Painting a border, setting up a ladder, and climbing up the ladder are all activities. I get it. You just want to paint. Only paint. Paint and paint and paint to exclusion of all else.

 

No. I want to be able to point to something, other than bothering to even walk into a POI or even bothering to invest time, points and equipment slots into improving stealth, and go "That is where I messed up, lets see how I can adjust to do better.". I.E. "Oh, I put that retention strap in the wrong spot, over here is probably a better spot.". Attack Volumes as they are set up don't allow that for stealth builds since they just cut the straps and kick the ladder out from under you without warning.

 

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

Some of us like to break up the painting stealth with the set the ladder back up stealth and the climb the ladder stealth because then it isn’t just painting all the time. 

 

Then climb down the ladder and move it on your own and stop expecting someone else to knock the ladders out from under you and all of the other painters just because you like putting up the ladder. There are better ways, one of which @Laz Man touched on a few posts ago and @faatal brought up as being under consideration several months ago.

Edited August 6, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

4 hours ago, dcsobral said:

If only that were so. If only it were a handful of POI.

Someone did a check in the xmls about a year ago. About 1/3rd of the pois in game at that time had attack volumes. So not a handful by a long shot.