Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Blake_]

1 hour ago, faatal said:

Yesterday I tested 100 zeds and various shadow settings and did not see that much difference on an RTX 2070. I do have Unity's gfx jobs enabled, which may have some effect on that even though FPS generally seems the same with it enabled. I moved the gfx jobs change into the project, so it will be on in a20.1.

 

Object quality setting matters more than it used to, since we have more block models, which cause more draw calls.

 

With all due respect, that's not true and not a good profiling test. I'll explain. Shadows are a task that is extremely hard not only on the GPU but on the CPU too. So it does impact CPU, therefore your profiling is not accurate. My guess: You might also using a ryzen 3900x (or a good CPU) which runs shadows like a breeze in a granullated way as it is a background task for which many CPUs rely on raw processing power to do. Your RTX2070 is  obviously good enough for every shadow task if you don't go crazy with the graphics (though I believe it could run ULTRA in the right circunstances, HIGH is preferred for GPU-related settings for that card at 1080p). So your system is stable and drinking a Mojito while running shadows. Use an old CPU and you will start to see the difference right away (Vsync Off is a must).

 

 

Zd shadows are not as impactful as tree shadows, as shadow area (size of the shadow in pixels) seems to matter the most. But shadows off do  increase entity fps in a noticeable way in crappy systems when entities are on you, so I believe a simple crappy circle shadow is worth researching, but just a thought. Tree shadows do hit fps A LOT. Tree animations do hit fps up to quite a bit too, but they need quantity (as I said,up to 60% performance hit on a quad core 2.7-3.2ghz cpu when 100 41m oaks are in front of you /no shadows) ,. Maybe increasing player-placed tree distance from each other by 1 or 2 blocks might help, like 1 planted tree every 4 or 5 blocks?

 

Recap:

 

Zd shadows increase fps when off and they even reduce the overhead when entities are hitting blocks, which makes the overall experience from  better (all the situations except "extreme block hitting" by many entities) to slightly better (specifically when extreme block hitting by many entities). Performance impact seems to be in the low 5-10% (edit: actually, minimum fps and fps drops went way up, so it's a 50% more in some cases) but way more stable and with lesser freezes and lag when facing screamers/horde with lesser CPUs.

 

The suggested methods for increasing performance based on my tests are:

 

 

-An option for having simpler shadows for trees and entities, like a simple circle or shape below the base (right below) of the model/entity,  or a simpler/light shadow processing, as that is the most effective way of maintaining some hint of a shadow and realist in the lowest settings while still having some shadows. So, below the NEAR option we could have SIMPLE, which would make Zds, trees and (I hope) other assets have simpler shadow processing, a lighter one like in those games of old,  one that does not result in moving squares like the current downsizing of shadow quality does (ugly). Downside is that it might have to be coded in. Not difficult nor a huge time hog though.

 

-An option for choosing simpler animations, not the expensive default ones that they have now. Like: Animations: OFF-SIMPLE-NORMAL.

 

-Reducing shadow area even further for trees , as it can be done without affecting quality of the game, and will improve fps to various degrees in all systems. I believe a 20% lesser shadow area can be done for trees like the biggest oak and some others.

 

-Increasing the separation between player-planted trees, like 1 or 2 blocks more would slightly improve performance even more in crowded servers

 

Turning the occluder off when outdoors in not a hack, but a good optimization move, in my opinion. Should it be ON outside though? Do you really believe a CPU-intensive task increases performance in a CPU-intensive area like a city ? The easiness on the Graphics Card load isn't worth it, and it's actually not a problem anymore (GPU options are plenty and well optimized). A voxel game burns CPU. newer and not-that-newer Graphic Cards run 7dtd graphics while drinking a capirinha on a beach at a summer party, unless you go for 2k or 4k right off the bat.

 

I apologize for the text wall, but it's recommended to read it all while cursing me nevertheless.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Blake_ (see edit history)

[Games'n'Grumble]

2 hours ago, faatal said:

I don't want canned pathing, if that is what you mean by common. The AI should react dynamically to whatever block combination is presented to them and make a reasonable job getting to you. Bandits, once in, will do the same.

Yes, I agree that AI should react to any combination of blocks, but surely bandits should be smarter than zombies? I mean, when a player makes noise in a large location, zombies coming from outside usually just hit the walls under the player because they don't see a way to get to the player. And what will the bandits do? Or because of their small number (you won't have to design a horde of bandits from 64 units, right?) will the area of their path search be significantly wider?

[Lord Morphleyes]

19 minutes ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

Yes, I agree that AI should react to any combination of blocks, but surely bandits should be smarter than zombies? I mean, when a player makes noise in a large location, zombies coming from outside usually just hit the walls under the player because they don't see a way to get to the player. And what will the bandits do? Or because of their small number (you won't have to design a horde of bandits from 64 units, right?) will the area of their path search be significantly wider?

Bandits are easy to program. If they detect you in a building they just take up positions outside the building to  ambush you when you come out. 

Its easy to code and realistic. And I say that with absolutely no experience in coding or banditing

[fragtzack]

IS there legendary loot in a20 or is tier6 the creme de la creme?

[Laz Man]

10 hours ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

I'm enjoying A20 quite a bit, but one thing is really bugging me (even more than distant meshes not removing placed items as they get removed).

Stealth.

Virtually all the new POIs have danger close spawns.  Some are so bad they don't spawn till you are in the room and then do it right in front of you.

All are willing to spawn even though you have already made sure the area was clear (which is bulldung IMHO).

This makes it so one has to cheese to use stealth.  By cheese, I mean doing things like where the player is supposed to drop into a room, instead build a set of stairs down far enough you can descend in stealthily triggering the spawn without them spawning right next to you and instant waking.  It is weak sauce that break immersion but not as weak sauce as dropping into a room with a closed door and nothing in the room then getting jacked by 2 zombies that spawned in as you were falling into the room.  This is with full points in stealth and all stealth gear.

 

It is annoying to use a cheese built stairway, go down 2 blocks and WATCH zombies magically appear.  7 Days To Magic?

 

Stealth has no value on horde night and the only way to use it effectively outside horde night is to use cheese tactics (build stairs, break walls).  Honestly feel it could be removed as a skill and just everyone the same basic level since it wasting points on it is not worthwhile.

 

 

 

Assuming the zombie spawning is not delayed by server and/or latency issues, please submit a report which POI you are experiencing this.

 

If its a volume configuration, level design can probably adjust it.  See this tread as reference.

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/26624-sleeper-alerting-system-is-weird/?do=findComment&comment=464543

[LastTugBoat243]

On 10/28/2020 at 11:42 PM, madmole said:

Alpha 20 Art Gallery

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• Current 10 armor/clothing slots reduced to 4 slots for outfits that will merge both clothing and armor values. No more clipping issues of wearing clothing under armor. Better balance on number of mod slots available to use with outfits.

It feels like the game is changing and not all the changes are good. There have been weird removals of items such as Grain alcohol , Hoe's for land tilling , smell mechanic , cave systems , blunderbuss , Hub City , snowberry , separate animal meat , moldy bread , wood cutting bench , zombie looting ,  log spike traps , sliding jail doors , barbed wire , and the simplification of building tiers used to be Wood --> Reinforced Wood --> Iron Reinforced Wood --> Flagstone --> Cobblestone --> Concrete --> Reinforced Concrete --> Steel --> Stainless Steel This was a great upgrade path it wasn't that complex and it was rewarding upgrade slowly towards stainless steel in the end it was replaced by the current path Wood --> Cobblestone -- Concrete --> Steel. even farming has been simplified before you could till the land with a Hoe to plant crops and you could create fertilizer to speed up the process. Now you just use a farm plot. Another thing the new clothing system we have to wear limiting outfits to increase stats and completely toss out character customization. Sorry dude you can't look the way you want to anymore because you have to wear this specific outfit that you might not like in order to boost harvest percentage or be able to harvest crops effectively. You said in your post that the new system would fix armor clipping through clothing. Well it really doesn't. Removing clothing all together isn't really a fix, its a removal. NOT A FIX a removal you didn't wanna take the time to fix it. So you you removed the system entirely removing diversity in character customization. You could probably just add additional armor sets for mining farming etc and try to fix the clipping issue. But instead your removing all of them POOF and substituting it with this limited armor system. I love this game and want to be a fun like in previous alpha's.

 

If you do decide to remove all clothing do you think there's a way you could keep the clothing models for the Modding community. There are people who will want make mod's to bring them back. 

Sorry if a lot of this didn't make sense.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by LastTugBoat243 (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

8 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

"Surprise spawns" right nearby the player only inside closets or above the ceiling, therefore those spawns don't magically appear in front of the player's eyes but are rather hidden and one would not know whether the zombies have been waiting there forever or just spawned.

  

In A19 it was possible to clear an entire room with a sneaky approach. You could have killed a zombie with a bow / crossbow and another zombie standing right next to it would not wake up. Now the first bow / crossbow kill always wakes up the remaining zombies of that same group.

 

Not all volumes AFAIK.

[Quantum Blue]

13 hours ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

Stealth.

Virtually all the new POIs have danger close spawns.  Some are so bad they don't spawn till you are in the room and then do it right in front of you.

All are willing to spawn even though you have already made sure the area was clear (which is bulldung IMHO).

 

11 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

In A19 it was possible to clear an entire room with a sneaky approach. You could have killed a zombie with a bow / crossbow and another zombie standing right next to it would not wake up. Now the first bow / crossbow kill always wakes up the remaining zombies of that same group.

 

Not attempting to disqualify any statements already made.  Just adding my experience thus far.

The runs I am quoting below have 'Feral Sense' off.  (I could easily have a post just for that and my testing thus far.)

 

Neither of these is my experience at all.  I have 3 'normal' runs into A20b238 until level 50ish, and am on my 4th (mostly 'normal'.  I have 3 others for cycle time and feral sense testing purposes).  I usually get the first Shadows perk around day 14 and I might go for the second at about day 40+.  (If I do - which is usually only for higher level poi's.  But I really haven't needed.)  I am constantly clearing rooms of z's with the bow and/or crossbow.  Heck, I am even shooting doors on closets with multiple z's and taking them all out quietly.  I'll grant you that's almost always 1-3 Lvl POI,s but I have had really good luck with 4 and 5 too.  I am not saying I can always clear a poi quietly, because there seem to be trigger points in certain poi's to 'ambush' you.  (And that is not a complaint.)  And I haven't had any surprise z's pop right in front of my eyes, etc.  (They have dropped from ceiling, or come around from stacks, etc.)  And when I clear a POI I usually salvage all non-structure items (and doors).  (and sometimes I fix poi's up.)  I have revisited some, and it usually takes a week or more before z's move back in, but clearing them is massively easy as they can't hide.  (I don't do that commonly as there is no reason to because I usually destroy loot containers.)

 

I wonder how we could be experiencing so differently.  (NOT sarcasm.)
 

(btw - I haven't had any problems with vehicles moving/jumping, either.  Well, at least up to now.  It's happening quite a bit on my new 4th run.  But I am now also playing with about 15 mods, too.)

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Quantum Blue
Clarification (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

4 hours ago, LastTugBoat243 said:

• Current 10 armor/clothing slots reduced to 4 slots for outfits that will merge both clothing and armor values. No more clipping issues of wearing clothing under armor. Better balance on number of mod slots available to use with outfits.

It feels like the game is changing and not all the changes are good. There have been weird removals of items such as Grain alcohol , Hoe's for land tilling , smell mechanic , cave systems , blunderbuss , Hub City , snowberry , separate animal meat , moldy bread , wood cutting bench , zombie looting ,  log spike traps , sliding jail doors , barbed wire , and the simplification of building tiers used to be Wood --> Reinforced Wood --> Iron Reinforced Wood --> Flagstone --> Cobblestone --> Concrete --> Reinforced Concrete --> Steel --> Stainless Steel This was a great upgrade path it wasn't that complex and it was rewarding upgrade slowly towards stainless steel in the end it was replaced by the current path Wood --> Cobblestone -- Concrete --> Steel. even farming has been simplified before you could till the land with a Hoe to plant crops and you could create fertilizer to speed up the process. Now you just use a farm plot. Another thing the new clothing system we have to wear limiting outfits to increase stats and completely toss out character customization. Sorry dude you can't look the way you want to anymore because you have to wear this specific outfit that you might not like in order to boost harvest percentage or be able to harvest crops effectively. You said in your post that the new system would fix armor clipping through clothing. Well it really doesn't. Removing clothing all together isn't really a fix, its a removal. NOT A FIX a removal you didn't wanna take the time to fix it. So you you removed the system entirely removing diversity in character customization. You could probably just add additional armor sets for mining farming etc and try to fix the clipping issue. But instead your removing all of them POOF and substituting it with this limited armor system. I love this game and want to be a fun like in previous alpha's.

 

If you do decide to remove all clothing do you think there's a way you could keep the clothing models for the Modding community. There are people who will want make mod's to bring them back. 

Sorry if a lot of this didn't make sense.

 

 

It makes perfect sense.

 

I have also articulated this point, and what you mentioned were a lot of the reasons I fell in love with 7 days in the first place.

 

Those quirks and interesting aspects that gave the game so much charm have long since gone, and that charm has gone with it.

 

I have tried and am still trying to give the game a proper go but to be honest its been too simplified, a lot of it is too boring because of this.

 

The ruined farming (the old system which you mentioned earlier, which I referred to as Nomadic Farming was amazing and by far one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game) has severely detracted from this aspect of gameplay.

 

The sameness of the zombies (more samey but in HD) gives the game a pressing visual repetetiveness which becomes apparent very quickly indeed.

 

Finally one of the last (but by no means least)  annoyances - the previously implemented zombie digging. This was a large amount of effort which added very little while taking a lot away, the ability to hide away from a horde night at the tradeoff cost of no kills or loot (though there are exceptions in design) - a system which is useless, since hordes are completely avoidable in certain POI's or bespoke player built bases anyway.

 

You have the fanbois to fight against, and the 'Devs do no wrong' crowd in airing such opinions and fond memories, and in the end all we can do is hope for mod support or lament the loss of so many things that made this game truly unique.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

5 hours ago, fragtzack said:

IS there legendary loot in a20 or is tier6 the creme de la creme?

 

Until heavily armed and armored bandits show up, I cant imagine a need for anything stronger than quality 6 weapons.

 

I'm living in the wastelands with two quality 6 weapons and some lower ones. 

At high character levels, the game is simple and too easy with that.  I could turn everything into bullet sponge's I guess, but that would be boring and annoying.

 

In SP, my true enemy (as it would be IRL), is boredom (Mid to late game).  I find I'm starting to take unnecessary risks.   I've lowered my armor from steel to military (maybe that's not really a downgrade depending how one would play).

 

Waiting on the all important Bandits (and some story arcs) to make the game great at higher levels.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Aldranon (see edit history)

[Palacinecka007]

Will there be some in-game mods (like for mod slot) for the drone to attack?

[Gazz]

15 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

In A19 it was possible to clear an entire room with a sneaky approach. You could have killed a zombie with a bow / crossbow and another zombie standing right next to it would not wake up. Now the first bow / crossbow kill always wakes up the remaining zombies of that same group.

 

This is not true.

I play stealth on a server and with the right perks and gear I hardly ever wake up any zombies.

The only real chance for them to notice me is if I try to sneak up on them by daylight and they see me.

Most of the time I instakill them with my machete.

 

Now if you play with feral sense on then you don't want to be sneaking around. This mode is for a much more combat-heavy game.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Gazz (see edit history)

[PoloPoPo]

I'm playing on survivalist with feral sense on day and night. No skill points into stealth or anything related. Like I have said, whenever I kill a Z with my crossbow completely SILENTLY the whole room wakes up. No matter how many other guys saying "this is not true", it definitely is. Yesterday I have cleared the T5 hospital and in every room it was the same, one free kill with the crossbow and the whole gang woke up instantly. If my bolts miss though Zs don't wake up, only if I hit (which always ends in an instant kill).

 

In A19 on same settings (except feral sense of course) and no skill points into stealth neither that was a whole different experience. Clearing a room silently with a bunch of Zs with a crossbow only was possible.

 

Edit:

Not saying it is bad. Sneaking around with a bow (without any skill points in stealth) and being able to kill lots of Zs always felt a bit too powerful anyway to me. Either this has changed with A20 or it does not work anymore due to feral sense ON. Or it requires a few skill points which would make sense.

Edited January 8, 2022 by PoloPoPo (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

46 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

No matter how many other guys saying "this is not true", it definitely is.

Gazz just literally said this: feral sense on means almost no stealth gameplay.

So, who're you talking to? 

[icehot]

57 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

I'm playing on survivalist with feral sense on day and night. No skill points into stealth or anything related. Like I have said, whenever I kill a Z with my crossbow completely SILENTLY the whole room wakes up. No matter how many other guys saying "this is not true", it definitely is. Yesterday I have cleared the T5 hospital and in every room it was the same, one free kill with the crossbow and the whole gang woke up instantly. If my bolts miss though Zs don't wake up, only if I hit (which always ends in an instant kill).

 

In A19 on same settings (except feral sense of course) and no skill points into stealth neither that was a whole different experience. Clearing a room silently with a bunch of Zs with a crossbow only was possible.

 

Edit:

Not saying it is bad. Sneaking around with a bow (without any skill points in stealth) and being able to kill lots of Zs always felt a bit too powerful anyway to me. Either this has changed with A20 or it does not work anymore due to feral sense ON. Or it requires a few skill points which would make sense.

 

I can second this, one kill with the crossbow and everyone wakes up!

[spud42]

i have just cleared a level 4 poi quest. player level 26. i have 3 points into shadows and hidden strike. i have made a lvl4 compound crossbow but a normal bow was ok too.  the only time the zeds woke up was when i made too much noise near a wall and the zed was on the other side of the wall. i have had 4 zeds in a row in a corridor and stealth killed all 4. the second last was even catapulted over the last zeds head and it didn't wake up. you can stealth if you are patient enough and take your time clearing the poi. 

[JCrook1028]

12 hours ago, LastTugBoat243 said:

you have to wear this specific outfit that you might not like in order to boost harvest percentage or be able to harvest crops effectively. You said in your post that the new system would fix armor clipping through clothing. Well it really doesn't.

Um.........do you even realize that the new clothing system is not even IN the game? So wth are you even complaining about when you have not and cannot even use the system to test it?

[Jost Amman]

23 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

Um.........do you even realize that the new clothing system is not even IN the game? So wth are you even complaining about when you have not and cannot even use the system to test it?

Yeah, some people attack preemptively because they don't like how something sounds. 

I say we should at least wait the second/third draft of the new system. There's plenty of time and TFP may change it a million times if they think it works better another way.

[Code6]

A20 is severely restricting my ability to use a junk turret.  It frequently falls down through the block it is on. If I am up high it will fall to a lower floor. At ground level I have had it melt into solid concrete, forcing me to dig it out.
This used to happen occasionally in A19, but now it is crazily frequent.  This is especially frustrating during blood moons because I have an Intellect build and my junkie is my main defense.
 

I hope this is on the TFP radar.  I love this game and this is a killer bug for me.

[Gazz]

5 hours ago, icehot said:

I can second this, one kill with the crossbow and everyone wakes up!

 

Yes, everything makes noise. That includes shooting or reloading a crossbow.

You can literally see when an action causes a ping on your stealth meter.

 

With FS on zombie senses are greatly improved so they are a lot more likely to pick up on small noises like that.

[mle_ii]

20 hours ago, faatal said:

I fixed it today. Fix will be in 20.1.

Awesome, is there an experimental build I can test?  Or do I need to wait for it to make it to the main public build?  Would love to help out testing things now and then.  Have a experience in software testing and want to help where I can as I really enjoy this game.

[LastTugBoat243]

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Um.........do you even realize that the new clothing system is not even IN the game? So wth are you even complaining about when you have not and cannot even use the system to test it?

Because it's inevitable that the system will be added. They have given us plenty enough description of what the system is. It will replace the current 8 slot clothing/armor system . The armor we will be given is armor that will be tailored to specific tasks and skillsets no room for customization unless you want to be an all round character that isn't good at anything in particular. We will probably not see clothing return just the "Hybrid Armor". The only reason I'm against the system is because I like to customize my character's outfit with what I find lying around like in the zombie apocalypse. 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Um.........do you even realize that the new clothing system is not even IN the game? So wth are you even complaining about when you have not and cannot even use the system to test it?

 

It doesn't need to be in the game in order for any player to oppose such ideas even in the concept stage.

 

If he or she turns out to be wrong, then so be it. But until that time you also cannot say whether or not they are and so they may have a great point which is legit.

[shorgan]

Perhaps we can change the look of clothing items with mods like the helm mod that makes it look like a baseball cap?

[LastTugBoat243]

1 hour ago, shorgan said:

Perhaps we can change the look of clothing items with mods like the helm mod that makes it look like a baseball cap?

It's a solution. But why can't we wear cloths and armor? 

Edited January 8, 2022 by LastTugBoat243 (see edit history)