Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[SnowDog1942]

1 hour ago, Callum123456789 said:

i wouldnt say so no i usually only see servers wipe.

I had to severely wipe about 20 minutes ago.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, retrogamingdev said:

 

Why can't anyone of the mods answer this seriously?

 

I thought the right answer was already given: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22366-alpha-20-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=456534

 

But I could be wrong. Maybe I'll get invited to a surprise meeting at the end of a tier 5 POI 😁

[Mechanimal]

5 hours ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

 

No reduction in upgrade costs though? - Confirmed

 So now we have to go back to uglier bases and ignore all the good pieces that were put in because not only are they weaker, but they cost way more given their weaker state.

 

Yeah... I'm surprised your the only one that's so far mentioned this one, give it another few days.

I, just, don't even know why this even happened, and am especially confused as to why the material/upgrade cost wouldn't also be adjusted the same way.

Like, one way or the other, or just put it back the way it was. Reducing block HP by 75% is no subtle nerf, jfc. But to still require the same amount of material to get there is an off the charts mistake.

I was having fun with the new shapes, so much for that I guess. I am highly skeptical this will stay as it is in this patch, it'll either revert to the way it was(ideal) or upgrade cost will be reduced to reflect the lower HP values(unfortunate, but tolerable. Still a massive blow to base building). Can't imagine how or why anyone could be happy with this cruel and unusual change. So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol. 

[MechanicalLens]

3 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

Yeah... I'm surprised your the only one that's so far mentioned this one, give it another few days.

I, just, don't even know why this even happened, and am especially confused as to why the material/upgrade cost wouldn't also be adjusted the same way.

Like, one way or the other, or just put it back the way it was. Reducing block HP by 75% is no subtle nerf, jfc. But to still require the same amount of material to get there is an off the charts mistake.

I was having fun with the new shapes, so much for that I guess. I am highly skeptical this will stay as it is in this patch, it'll either revert to the way it was(ideal) or upgrade cost will be reduced to reflect the lower HP values(unfortunate, but tolerable. Still a massive blow to base building). Can't imagine how or why anyone could be happy with this cruel and unusual change. So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol. 

 

This has honestly been the kick in the teeth for me. This has ruined all of my plans for horde bases, outside of cube watchtower bases. I'm out. Maybe I'll return to the game when a mod reverses this change, but until then, I'll be focusing my sights elsewhere. Chow.

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

Yeah... I'm surprised your the only one that's so far mentioned this one, give it another few days.

I, just, don't even know why this even happened, and am especially confused as to why the material/upgrade cost wouldn't also be adjusted the same way.

Like, one way or the other, or just put it back the way it was. Reducing block HP by 75% is no subtle nerf, jfc. But to still require the same amount of material to get there is an off the charts mistake.

I was having fun with the new shapes, so much for that I guess. I am highly skeptical this will stay as it is in this patch, it'll either revert to the way it was(ideal) or upgrade cost will be reduced to reflect the lower HP values(unfortunate, but tolerable. Still a massive blow to base building). Can't imagine how or why anyone could be happy with this cruel and unusual change. So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol. 

 

Adjusting the material costs would mean you need three different generic block items per material instead of one. I.e. 3 wood shapes, 3 cobbelstone shapes, ... . And segment the shapes menue into 3 different shape menues that you can't just convert from one into the other.

 

It can be done, sure, but I guess that is a big disadvantage  and they won't like it much

 

Oh, just thought of an alternative: Poles would use up 1 wood shape while full blocks would use up 4 wood shapes when you place a block

 

And I guess the reasons are:

1) it conforms to expectations (i.e. a pole in reality has less "HP" than a full block)

2) They also have big in-game advantages as they use much less space for the same defense value

[Mahnogard]

5 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

Can't imagine how or why anyone could be happy with this cruel and unusual change. So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol. 

I can't defend it, but it didn't stand out to me because currently (out of habit) I generally only use full blocks and bars for primary fortifications. (I usually build walled compounds. If they get in, I've failed, so all the strength goes into that wall and its defenses.) So I think the lack of outcry just could come down to how people are building. I suspect you'll see more push-back on the change when the people who didn't read the patch notes yet see the results of the changes in their game, though.

[Roland]

19 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol

 

I'm a pretty basic builder. I don't even know how I would use most of the new shapes for aesthetically pleasing results. I guess a good example could really help me. Can you describe one of the shapes that has been reduced in HP and exactly how that would compromise the security of your base? Are these smaller blocks the ones that are typically even going to be within reach of the horde? For example, some of the archway pieces probably won't ever get hit if you use them would they? What's the usecase for these pieces in zombie defense where their hp actually comes into play?

 

I mean if MechanicalLens is saying goodbye until this is fixed these must be pretty integral defensive blocks and maybe I need to learn about them better.

 

4 hours ago, retrogamingdev said:

 

Why can't anyone of the mods answer this seriously?

 

I have the same question.

[Blake_]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

 

I'm a pretty basic builder. I don't even know how I would use most of the new shapes for aesthetically pleasing results. I guess a good example could really help me. Can you describe one of the shapes that has been reduced in HP and exactly how that would compromise the security of your base?

Basically our cheat bases are compromised. That means the main objective of the change was balance. Now, full blocks are encouraged in order to not exploit entities that can actually go through 1 meter holes, like dogs, wolves and spiders. Before, you could just put a tiny pole on the side and they couldn't jump. Now you still can, but it has less hp, so it's a good trade off.

 

And, ironically, the change also promotes realism. No way that a tiny stick pole is stronger than a full block pillar. Yeah, materials are the same, but it's a game and complexity in this case is a headache.

[Red Eagle LXIX]

27 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

Yeah... I'm surprised your the only one that's so far mentioned this one, give it another few days.

I, just, don't even know why this even happened, and am especially confused as to why the material/upgrade cost wouldn't also be adjusted the same way.

Like, one way or the other, or just put it back the way it was. Reducing block HP by 75% is no subtle nerf, jfc. But to still require the same amount of material to get there is an off the charts mistake.

I was having fun with the new shapes, so much for that I guess. I am highly skeptical this will stay as it is in this patch, it'll either revert to the way it was(ideal) or upgrade cost will be reduced to reflect the lower HP values(unfortunate, but tolerable. Still a massive blow to base building). Can't imagine how or why anyone could be happy with this cruel and unusual change. So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol. 

 

22 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

This has honestly been the kick in the teeth for me. This has ruined all of my plans for horde bases, outside of cube watchtower bases. I'm out. Maybe I'll return to the game when a mod reverses this change, but until then, I'll be focusing my sights elsewhere. Chow.

My biggest issue with the block shapes change is that they cost just as much to upgrade. A block that has only 25% of the HP should not cost 100% of the upgrade costs. Add in that now you have to play a guessing game of which block has what HP (or place each shape, damage it so you can see the HP).
It makes sense smaller shapes should have less HP, if they also were to cost less to upgrade/make, and the player could tell which shapes were impacted in game (not by going to XML and not by having to damage it first).

@MechanicalLens Check the modding forum, already done.

@Roland You can see the list of blocks that were changed between b218 and b231 in the mod.  352 Shapes were changed assuming I didn't miss any.

[MechanicalLens]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I'm a pretty basic builder. I don't even know how I would use most of the new shapes for aesthetically pleasing results. I guess a good example could really help me. Can you describe one of the shapes that has been reduced in HP and exactly how that would compromise the security of your base? Are these smaller blocks the ones that are typically even going to be within reach of the horde? For example, some of the archway pieces probably won't ever get hit if you use them would they? What's the usecase for these pieces in zombie defense where their hp actually comes into play?

 

I mean if MechanicalLens is saying goodbye until this is fixed these must be pretty integral defensive blocks and maybe I need to learn about them better.

 

 

I have the same question.

 

It's not just for defensive purposes (although perhaps that as well). I was super enthusiastic about building something other than cube watchtower bases. Now those plans are being chipped away, in some ways inevitably, other ways currently and drastically. Why stop at plates and poles? I know I'm sounding paranoid and that is a route I really try to stray away from, but I think it's justified here. I imagine most of the deco blocks (maybe catwalks and bars too) will have nerfs in HP eventually. We'd be back to building with cubes, ramps, stairs, and half blocks.

 

And I understand I can simply build my home away from my horde base and go crazy there, but that still doesn't change the fact that my horde base would be barely any more interesting than a dumpster. Lol

 

It happens all the time. People figure out ways to cheese the zombies, lead them along corridors, use melee-only defensible walls, etc., and TFP go, "This is against our vision. We can't have this." With such an incredible community as this, encouraging variety is surely what they would want, right? Fixing an AI glitch is one thing, nerfing tons of blocks that could be used defensively or aesthetically is another. I never build cheese bases - they're not my type - but imo they're not any less valid than standard watch tower designs.

 

I praise A20 in all other respects (I'd yet to get into farming, so I cannot comment on that), but this... I cannot defend this change, sorry. And again, if it means anything, I don't build cheese or AFK bases, so you can't put me in that category. But I'm just 1 player who is probably resistant to change, so what do I know.

I've been meaning to get back into variety gaming anyway.

10 minutes ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

 

@MechanicalLens Check the modding forum, already done.

 

Got a link?

[Hameshy]

10 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Got a link?

 

Is one of RELXIX modlets 🙂

 

[MechanicalLens]

Thanks to everyone who supported me with the links, I'm back to installing the game. Haha.

 

TFP, seriously, take this advice wisely. You have a fantastic game coupled with an amazing community. Most game developers are either greedy scumbags, or they're good, honest people who couldn't ever dream of having something that 7D2D / TFP has. Let players have options. Give people choices when building. Handicaps, no matter how realistic, are never fun.

[Mechanimal]

22 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I'm a pretty basic builder. I don't even know how I would use most of the new shapes for aesthetically pleasing results. I guess a good example could really help me. Can you describe one of the shapes that has been reduced in HP and exactly how that would compromise the security of your base? Are these smaller blocks the ones that are typically even going to be within reach of the horde? For example, some of the archway pieces probably won't ever get hit if you use them would they? What's the usecase for these pieces in zombie defense where their hp actually comes into play?

 

I mean if MechanicalLens is saying goodbye until this is fixed these must be pretty integral defensive blocks and maybe I need to learn about them better.

 

 

I have the same question.

I think the combo of -75% HP while still at 100% mat cost in the current iteration is the extreme problem. If that were at least balanced, so -75% HP at -75% mat cost, there would be a dif debate about this change.

Like, I would still be ugh on it and consider it an unhealthy blow to base building, but I would adapt and deal, probably end up liking it eventually. But as is, in this patch, nope. Started a new game, stopping the one where I was super into base building, and am just gonna focus more on exploring the new POIs, with minimal base building, until next patch. I imagine this will not stay as it is in this patch for long.

[POCKET951]

2 hours ago, Mechanimal said:

I think the combo of -75% HP while still at 100% mat cost in the current iteration is the extreme problem. If that were at least balanced, so -75% HP at -75% mat cost, there would be a dif debate about this change.

Like, I would still be ugh on it and consider it an unhealthy blow to base building, but I would adapt and deal, probably end up liking it eventually. But as is, in this patch, nope. Started a new game, stopping the one where I was super into base building, and am just gonna focus more on exploring the new POIs, with minimal base building, until next patch. I imagine this will not stay as it is in this patch for long.

although realistically and thematically, -75% and -50% make sense..it is a little bit...extreme? I think -50% and -25% would be more reasonable

 

I was also looking forward to building a tower,7 meter in A20 for my hordebase, but if the round tower pieces have scuffed HP than there is no point using them and it will be back to square blocks.

I think why alot of people are upset about this is because you gave us a whole new shape menu to play with now, and now you are telling us alot of these shapes are just useless in hordebases.

regardless of these small block changes, people will still make bases that can cheese hordenights. they will just use older/uglier ones with full blocks.

so this change does nothing but restrict what people will build hordebases with

[Kosmic Kerman]

On Grand Spartan's stream tonight (around the 2:46 min mark), he had a base collapse and in addition to the elevated platform blocks breaking the support pillars broke as well. I've never seen support pillars collapse before. Has something changed about SI in A20?

 

Here's a link to right before the collapse:

 

 

[MechanicalLens]

20 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

although realistically and thematically, -75% and -50% make sense..it is a little bit...extreme? I think -50% and -25% would be more reasonable

 

I was also looking forward to building a tower,7 meter in A20 for my hordebase, but if the round tower pieces have scuffed HP than there is no point using them and it will be back to square blocks.

I think why alot of people are upset about this is because you gave us a whole new shape menu to play with now, and no you are telling us alot of these shapes are just useless in hordebases.

regardless of these small block changes, people will still make bases that can cheese hordenights. they will just use older/uglier ones with full blocks.

so this change does nothing but restrict what people will build hordebases with

 

It's new players as well. Let's assume all the pillar variants are next on the chopping block. A new player uses pillars to elevate a walkway that they fire down on the zombies from. This new player realized the pillars have 50% less HP than normal blocks. What do they do? Well, from then on they build with cubes, like everything else.

 

Anyway, enough ranting from me. 😛 Just wanted to say I was considering "the little people" (or new players; "little" as in hours wise) as well.

[Kosmic Kerman]

22 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

although realistically and thematically, -75% and -50% make sense..it is a little bit...extreme? I think -50% and -25% would be more reasonable

 

I was also looking forward to building a tower,7 meter in A20 for my hordebase, but if the round tower pieces have scuffed HP than there is no point using them and it will be back to square blocks.

I think why alot of people are upset about this is because you gave us a whole new shape menu to play with now, and no you are telling us alot of these shapes are just useless in hordebases.

regardless of these small block changes, people will still make bases that can cheese hordenights. they will just use older/uglier ones with full blocks.

so this change does nothing but restrict what people will build hordebases with

 

I think this will require more playing with to determine which blocks are affected. I know that the full length quarter blocks or "cubes" didn't have their HP reduced. And so, at least for now, it's not all less than full-sized blocks that had their HP reduced.

[MechanicalLens]

I just wanted to apologize for my rash reaction earlier. Perhaps I was being a bit dramatic - uninstalling the game and all that - but I still would have left until a mod came around that reverted this change. 😛 Many people are praising it, some saying it should have happened years ago, and while I am certainly not one of those people, that doesn't make the change objectively wrong. It's all subjective at the end of the day. And hopefully my worries about new players being discouraged from building with blocks with less HP is grossly exaggerated.

 

But thank goodness mods exist. I've installed it, I'm happy, anyone who chooses to do the same will be happy, and anyone who is happy with the change, all the more power to them. Everything is well.

[Roland]

The overall costs of upgrading seem so much cheaper to me now that its hard for me to feel any outrage over this. Especially if it is smaller specialty shapes and not the regular shapes you would use for the direct defenses vs zombies pounding. To me everything still costs the same that they did yesterday so no big deal. I guess if I end up using something as a defensive structure and it gets ripped apart in no time I'll be screwed because I can't really see myself checking every block for HP. 

 

I just wonder how big an impact this will have in actual practice on horde nights or is it just the principle of the thing that offends?

[Guppycur]

Minmaxers will freak. 

[Aldranon]

With forts:

 

I'm not sure why they cant group blocks into 2 or 3 categories with different damage and costs. (EDIT: wait... they would have to change the entire system, so 3 generic block types (full, half and quarter))

 

I mean right now, only counting blocks up to 4 high, just the outside layer of my BM base would take about 1.5 million damage to destroy.  Lets not talk about my 17x16 inner core that is solid up to 5 meters high! 

I lost only 7 blocks for the entire BM day 28 horde!  

 

I can welcome some changes.  It would be nice if they made sense too.  (Edit: That's not a requirement to make sense!  My theory is the player is in a Coma and what is happening is their fight to regain conscious is causing what is seen (the "mindless" zombie vs the mindful player!)  7D2D Part 2 will be when the player regains consciousness!  Maybe the player will have 7 days to prepare for a "real" apocalypse!

 

[icehot]

I don't even get why this change was done, 75% nerf to certain blocks seems too much, it seems like another one of those "oh players have figured out a tactic that works let's get rid of it so they have nothing that really works" moves.  I just don't get why, people still had to defend, use traps, use guns, had the horde coming up to them mostly in a tower style in a tower defence game.  Next, it'll be "oh traps work, let's get rid of traps, perhaps guns need to just give them a tickle instead of actually shooting them"

[Darklegend222]

7 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Okay, and the "vs distance" part is supposed to not account for blocks obstructing path and/or LOS to the player?

I believe it's LOS, but we do give off a scent trail since A18 from what I remember. So we can still be tracked through blocks albeit lightly

[Aldranon]

14 minutes ago, icehot said:

I don't even get why this change was done, 75% nerf to certain blocks seems too much, it seems like another one of those "oh players have figured out a tactic that works let's get rid of it so they have nothing that really works" moves.  I just don't get why, people still had to defend, use traps, use guns, had the horde coming up to them mostly in a tower style in a tower defence game.  Next, it'll be "oh traps work, let's get rid of traps, perhaps guns need to just give them a tickle instead of actually shooting them"

 

75% nerf to 5000 is still a lot of strength (1250).

 

Edit: Also we ARE talking about just 10 concrete mix, right?  How easy and fast can a mid level player make that?  aaaand If you are being honest?  Thats right, its a nothing!

 

 

[overgoat]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I just wonder how big an impact this will have in actual practice on horde nights or is it just the principle of the thing that offends?

I have been using three 1/4 columns around the corners of my horde base tower.  It allowed me to build wider at the top, while still having a somewhat sleeker design.  The lower health is making me rethink that design now.

 

Maybe it wouldn't be as painful if the health reduction was halved?  75% health for 1/2 blocks and 50% for 1/4th blocks?  It does make sense for them to be weaker, but with the same upgrade costs it does encourage blockier, less interesting builds.