Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Burrfly]

6 hours ago, MisutoM said:

 

I have to hard disagree on this. I'm "only" 36 hours into my world, but I'm absolutely drowning in ammo on warrior difficulty with feral sense on and x64 zombie blood moons, 100% loot. I have not completed the lucky looter series, so all this is on default loot bag drop rates.

 

Around day 20 on stream, I thought we had too much so I joking left my melee at home and just started spraying and praying my way through tier 5 POIs for fun. That just made things worse. Zombie loot bags are guaranteed to drop ammo in the first slot now, and each bag has ~50 shotgun shells, ~70 .762, or ~90 9mm. I played alpha 19 for 1000 hours, I had to craft ammo a lot, and never once did I need to make a second ammo chest. In alpha 20, I already need a second chest and literally can't shoot it away faster than I get it. 

 

I think the problem (for me) is entirely coming from the loot bags. Ammo piles seem to have way less than they did in previous alphas, and I don't know about traders because I've never needed to buy or craft any. Hard example from the stream: On my day 28 horde I used ~40 pipe bombs and finished the horde around 12:30. From the loot bags, with no loot candy, I got ~450 .762, 600 9mm, and ~300 shotgun shells. 

 

Another hard example, day 34 I started dishong tower with 600 9mm and ~200 shotgun shells. I finished the POI using nothing but my smg and pumpyboy and left with nearly 1000 9mm, ~400ish shotguns, and a few stacks of .762. This is almost entirely from the yellow bags as the loot piles were fair amounts of ammo; a few bullets and/or crafting parts for ammo.

 

I'm not good at FPS and I miss shots a ton as Gazz and other viewers can attest too, I'm not some MLG no scope pro - I am just mediocre with guns, but I'm literally drowning in ammo despite only using guns this alpha. This isn't meant to be a brag post. Am I really the only person having this problem in game this alpha? 

No, you aren't the only one. I adressed the same issue. Some might find it cool because, well, guns ARE cool, but I think that we shouldn't be able to spray around all the time and get so much ammo back. In my opinion ammo should be used only when necessary because it's scarce, for example when a horde is coming running to you and not just to spray into a random POI just because we have so much ammo. I think it makes it even more fun to use a gun when we don't have much ammo, because this makes us think about it and use it in special accasions like 'holy crap, there is a horde with some ferals coming to us, I hope I have enough ammo'. This makes it more of a challenge, instead of just powpowpowpow and you kill the entire horde because you have stacks and stacks of ammo, even in the early stage of the game.

 

In the Discord there are also multiple people saying the same thing as you, that there spawns too much ammo. So, no, you aren't the only one. I'm happy that other people think this too

[Aldranon]

You can survive on meat with cooking -1.

 

 

On another topic: The Archer class has become comparatively much stronger in A20!  As strong, if not stronger than strength class!

The Ammo savings for emergencies only is maybe the biggest deal.  Cheapo stone arrows will clear all the basic zombies and is OK for BM nights.

 

It's also a ambiance build for me, as that is probably how I would be like in a crazy apocalyptic situation that is 7D2D! 

[Burrfly]

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Ammo is definitely VERY prevalent, even to the point that my friend who S P A M S bullets barely runs out. He uses like 15+ 9mm per zombie, and uses his 'ranged hammer" to shoot holes in blocks and picture frames etc, and I've got like 600+ shotgun shells already by day 9 I think? on normal day length and loot settings etc

Thank you for also adressing this, well, kinda gamebreaking issue because it removes the fun if we have so much ammo. It may even be a bug, or someone accidentally wrote some 0's too much behind the ammo reward value

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

Quests got plenty of love, especially when you unlock the "special" quests for trade routes. I'm not sure how far you made it but it gets a lot better, I won't spoil anything for ya. I forgot to mention that we can also do lower tiered quests even when we unlock higher tiers!

Yes, that's what I meant by trader list. They are also independent and give amazing bundles and rewards so that is nice. But the list is useless if you can restart the game as many times as you want until you find the POI you want, or if you fancy  doing 15 buried in the same day with your auger, or doing the same crack a book or Supercorn POI 5 times in the same day (by restarting and reseting trader quests) or whatever. Bad exploit. 

[Khalagar]

Oh yeah, @MisutoM I asked you in chat but you weren't the right build to test it, but I can confirm, maxing the quest rewards perk *does* let you take two options for the trader tier upgrade rewards too and it's awesome. I rushed to max out the trader reward quest and it's very nice to get to pick between two to see what they give

[POCKET951]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

Personally, the only thing I think needs to be added @madmole is some xp award for planting each seed as was suggested to bring it in line with the other game actions we do that earn xp.

 

 

Well, that's a lie. I would also like to have to provide a water source nearby a la minecraft and I think zombies and animals should (once again) be able to collide and break crops so that if you don't protect them well you will have to replant. But then, I like planting...

one of the things I do like about the new farming is that it  seems more immersive.  your crops are valuable and can be damage by zombie's, in A19 if a spitter spat on your crops they would turn to seeds, now you would lose the harvest. 

so now when making your garden there needs to be thought and effort made to protect and defend your crops, which I think is really neat. and with the A20 shape menu you overhaul you should be able to make some kind of  janky structure resembling a greenhouse

and yes, I can get on board with the idea of getting experiencing for planting seeds because alot of other things you interact with in the world also give exp. so it doesn't make sense that planting seeds gives none.

on a side note, I think living off the land could be spruced up a bit, no pun intended. something like a 50 percent chance to make an extra farm plot instead of just 1, or maybe even a 5 or 10% chance to craft 2 seeds instead of one, or maybe even a small reduction in time for plants to mature.  Just something to make it not feel entirely worthless or wasteful, but also something that doesn't tinker with the yield yet improves farming a bit.

 

What if LoTL 2 increased the exp you got from farming?

Just throwing random ideas, but I do think LoTL rank 2 could use a bit of love

[Blake_]

I found the ancient hidden bug that sometimes deletes a consumable forever (books, food, water, schematics, you name it) without a trace.

I want you guys to look at it and help to track it down to the exact reproduce steps, which is a combination of keys registered in this post with videos of the issue. 

Thanks !

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Aldranon]

As an experiment I pushed Lucky looter (You can get LL-3 after the first POI mission):

 

I think something is broken here as my loot is twice as good: Tier-2 MG with good ammo, much more stuff than I've seen before in A20.

I'm getting an egg about every other nest as that just ends any food problem. (I put a point in hunter so food is now a non-issue).

 

I believe there is some math problem with LL or is this the "Monty Hall Show" Perk?  (You get...  Another NEW CAR!!)   

 

UPDATE

So RNG plays a BIG part, only two eggs on day 2, but I did get 3 wrenches on day 1 plus the tier 2 Pipe MG and a bunch of eggs.

Also on day 2...

A dire wolf was waiting for me the morning of day 2, I killed him and the time it took me to go from the back yard to the front (I trolled the wolf to a setup in the backyard)  A BEAR was there in its place.  At least it wasn't a zombie bear I guess.   I trolled him over to the traders compound and hit him with my (now) legendary teir 1 club.  he died too.  Lots more meat!

[Firecat]

So far the most glaring reminder I'm playing an experimental has been stumbling across this lake:

 

So far so good, otherwise. My computer crashed once (not the game's fault, I accidentally unplugged it when it was running hot) and the game loaded back up fine. Last time that happened in alpha 19 my whole game was corrupted.

[Zodiark69]

34 minutes ago, Firecat said:

So far the most glaring reminder I'm playing an experimental has been stumbling across this lake:

 

So far so good, otherwise. My computer crashed once (not the game's fault, I accidentally unplugged it when it was running hot) and the game loaded back up fine. Last time that happened in alpha 19 my whole game was corrupted.

Aw, come on. Don't you enjoy the special lake to find? Parkour time in water.

[AdminUnknown]

56 minutes ago, Firecat said:

So far the most glaring reminder I'm playing an experimental has been stumbling across this lake:

 

So far so good, otherwise. My computer crashed once (not the game's fault, I accidentally unplugged it when it was running hot) and the game loaded back up fine. Last time that happened in alpha 19 my whole game was corrupted.

Maybe you unplugged the lake at the same time 🚰

[Morloc]

7 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

you'd hear rabbits thumping your corn

 

It was like a windchime, with all those candy tins falling out of the corn! 👻

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

I didn't say or mean every idea is the same, or even suggest it's only 'in their heads,' I meant that certain ideas may be floated and rejected without the need to put everything into active development, even for the purposes of play testing.

 

Ok, understood. And I agree, there are ideas you can reject on principle

 

9 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Those ideas rejected without such development are rejected on the basis of principle and theory, which was my point.

 

Obviously TFP didn't reject the new farming on prinicple because they have a different viewpoint than you and their testers seem to have not objected on principle or after (however short or long) play-testing either. When farming was changed away in A15 from a rather similar system there were protests as well and (without yet playing) a lot of people here have said they like the change principally.

 

Which means this is an idea that can't be rejected on principle since seemingly intelligent people seem to be on both sides of this fence. Ergo play-testing is necessary and getting some overall feedback from all players out there, optimally after they have played more than one world while adapting to the changes.

 

9 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

The notion of replanting isn't the end of the world, but the notion of disappearing seeds in on top of replanting, complemented with a good chance to find them in loot, but a good chance not to find them from the parent plant, is what I am objecting too.

 

And that is exactly what I like with the new system. Now you are on the lookout for seeds or even single potatoes again. I have been playing for roughly 17 hours now and started a famr. And I already adapted a little and tried to make seeds for plants I want long-term and just use the produce of plants I deem less important (like coffee as this is found easily in kitchens). Long term I expect to use a smaller farm with less overproduction (and more build-to-order 😁), but we will see.

   

9 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

This is my rejection on principle and theory, given we have been given a pretty clear explanation of what this seed disappearance is. 

 

My friends don't farm, won't farm, and yet need no seed seduction to go looting.

 

The principle TFP is probably after is "Everything in loot is valuable all the time". I don't think this will ever be 100% true (there is a end game recipe missing that needs 100 plant fiber for example 😉) , but for me the game is slowly going in that direction.

 

[Blake_]

 

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Ok, understood. And I agree, there are ideas you can reject on principle

My brain just rejected the notion of the principle of the farming rejection theory. I'm so confused right now . 

 

What is seed seduction? My, my.

[Doomofman]

Are there no more working workstations in the wild? Yet to find one myself or see anyone else get one on streams

[Aldranon]

1 minute ago, Doomofman said:

Are there no more working workstations in the wild? Yet to find one myself or see anyone else get one on streams

 

I doubt that there are any active workstations because finding one early could mess up the game balance a bit.  You should be able to build one in about a week, less if you push it and have a little luck.

[bachgaman]

 

I'll tell you what I found on the first day of the game. 100% loot/exp, jog/sprint/sprint/nighmare, survivalist, feral night

 

0. It so happened that I started building a base on the POI territory called "part_trader_tile_filler_01". In some places of this territory, I cannot place blocks. Because of this, I have a funny hole in the ceiling of the bunker. I don't understand what it is. Video:

Spoiler

 

 

1. Bug of lakes.

Such lakes have been encountered more than once.

Spoiler

2. Poor balance of new pipe weapons. What is one reason to use a pipe shotgun or pipe rifle instead of a pipe machinegun? Why is a pipe baton worse than a wooden one in terms of characteristics?

3. New menu of forms for building. On the one hand, having such a variety is very good, but on the other, why did they add ALL the forms that exist in the game? Broken ducts and the like could have been left for creative, why would a broken wood duct be used in survival? Some of these forms just spoil the atmosphere of the game.

4. A bicycle at the end of the first day is fine, but why is there a mechanic skill then? I don't know if the trader will issue other transport? (I only played 7 in-game days and opened three traders so bicycle offered twice)

5. As I thought, the "rebalancing" of the trader was reduced to the fact that they reduced the ammo and grenades in half for the quest rewards. I played through pure intelligence and rush barter and adventurer and this is what I got in secret stash.

Day 3. AK-47 level 3, steel sledgehammer level 1 (bought for mate) and nailgun (bought), concrete (bought):

Spoiler

Day 5: Steel pickaxe level 1, M60 level 3, sniper rifle level 3, magnum level 3:

Spoiler

Day 7: Auger level 3 (rofl, bought), auto shotgun level 3, double-barreled shotgun level 4 (bought for a ~5k and given to a teammate)

Spoiler

6. This form doesnt change textures when you upgrade this. It calls something like "crown" in english. I upgraded to cobblestone, but it still remains a wooden texture.  I don’t think this is the only form with such a flaw.

Spoiler

7. Loot in cars like this is incredibly valuable, maybe OP

Spoiler

8. Faced the effect of a cloud hovering overhead. There is a thunderstorm overhead, but literally after 50 meters the sun is shining. You are walking towards the sun, but a thunder-cloud follows you. Funny bug. I seem to be playing at medium preset setting

Spoiler

 

Thanks TFP very much for work and for the long awaited update. In general, the world looks much better, especially the cities. It's cool, but unfortunately there isn't much new content. In fact, the A20 looks like a remaster of the A19. The pipe weapon does not fill any gaps and is quickly out of the game. In addition, it is unbalanced and therefore most of it is simply not needed. Modifiers for cars are cool, but until not checked. City generation is great. New POIs too. And you know about the drone.

[Henrique]

Are we ever going to be able to craft lower tier items? 

Lets say I can make tier 6 wrenches but only need a tier 1 wrench to make a workbench. 

I should be able to craft lower tier items.

[HungryZombie]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the farming update. It takes 5 food to craft a seed that will give you 1 food plus a 50/50 chance of a seed. I'm not great at math but does those odds even make crafting seeds worth it? Those are worse odds than Vegas it seems.

[Guppycur]

Fairly mild discussion tbh; if this is the worst feature of A20 (farming seeds) then um, y'all did good. =)

...that being said, I'm glad you put some challenges back in survival.

[Stroichik]

Farming is useless now. Its easier to go hunt for grilled meat, than replanting 60 corn plots to get more or less usable supply of food. No point of wasting 3 skill points for LotL level 3 only to get 1 food from plant.

 

But hey, u can craft machinegun from pipe and glue on day 1. So its kinda obvious that u should go exterminate whatever is left of life in Navezgane to keep u from being hungry.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, CoolJ said:

 

Not exactly. Can you guarantee that every random gen map will have a Carl's Corn POI? In A19,

 

I'm not madmole, but even I can guarantee you that 1) Super corn is not essential to winning the game and 2) if there was no Carl's corn in an A19 map you had to play without super corn exactly like now in A20

 

5 hours ago, CoolJ said:

I had several worlds without.

 

I can say that in at least the majority of the worlds I played (vanilla and overhaul) Carl's Corn was there. In one vanilla I remember I almost thought there was none but after a search with a gyro I found one.

 

5 hours ago, CoolJ said:

I asked this question already and got no answer. Super corn is the only reason to farm at all. There is so much meat out there, I already have three stacks on day six. I am not even going out of my way to get it. I am just killing the animals I see and the ones the game throws at me. Like the day four wolf horde that showed up at my base.

 

If you couldn't survive on meat then this whole farming business is extra harsh because you would have to put your first six points in the game into farming just to stay alive. By the time you get any kind of glue farm established, you won't even need it anymore. You will have already struggled to boil down every bone you can find to make the things you needed the glue for a long time since. This also kinda screws people that would rather have a small farm on the roof of their base. Now you need a considerably bigger farm than before. Roughly twice the size. So the usual 7x7 plot I plant on top of my base will have to be 14x14 now. That ain't gonna fit on my roof.

 

 

[SEDATIVE]

I have a question. We run A20 from the begining, and there is no Acid drop, you can only buy from trader till now  

Looted many houses, cars, poi-s, we are at  day 17 now, in A19 we looted acid first day. Is this a bug, or something changed?  

[meganoth]

17 minutes ago, SEDATIVE said:

I have a question. We run A20 from the begining, and there is no Acid drop, you can only buy from trader till now  

Looted many houses, cars, poi-s, we are at  day 17 now, in A19 we looted acid first day. Is this a bug, or something changed?  

 

I found, not bought, my first acid in the third week, so drop chance seems greatly reduced

 

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, HungryZombie said:

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the farming update. It takes 5 food to craft a seed that will give you 1 food plus a 50/50 chance of a seed. I'm not great at math but does those odds even make crafting seeds worth it? Those are worse odds than Vegas it seems.

 

That is only one aspect of the change.  Seed loot chances (and locations where you can loot them from) has increased.  I have found corn seed in toilets.  There are new loot containers where you can find seeds.

 

So if your only source of creating a farm is from a single seed you find, then yes the odds are not very good.  If, however, you include finding seeds in the wild, then your chances are better.  Percentages may change, but we need to examine the farming change based on all the changes made throughout the world.

6 hours ago, CoolJ said:

Super corn is the only reason to farm at all.

Really?  The only reason?

 

Looks at his previous A19 playthroughs with rows of every plant (except the hops, I typically wasn't into producing beer on a grand scale).......

 

Super corn was the last thing I was worried about setting a farm up for.  Corn and potatoes were the largest staple, followed by coffee / goldenroot / chys and then the remaining items.  Hell I went through several games where I never bothered to plant super corn.