How soon do you expect to see better than primitive loot?

[Reckis]

I thought about making this a poll, but decided that might be to limiting for responses

 

How soon do you expect to see loot that is better than primitive?

 

Personally, I think it is fine where it is. I look forward to getting that Q4-6 primitive tool, especially on my builds that cant make anything better than a Q1.

[RestInPieces]

I like it fine where it is as well, I just don't like how it happens.

[DaChibii]

Finally... an important question, that hopefully TFP can get some decent metrics out of it.

Personally, I feel like it should be within the first 2-3 hours of gameplay (so Day 3-4). But I'm referring to greater than T2 stone-level, and not iron-level. I think Iron-level should be within second or third game-session, or somewhere between day 7 and day 21. Although, I'm making assumptions on average game session length, in-game time to RL time, and player progression. So my response is more relative to the actual metrics (I don't know those, TFP probably does) than a firm answer.

My issue with Primitive/Entry-Level Tools is that current economy is broken with them. They're mostly a durable consumable, where the resource cost to make is plentifully abundant and has almost a zero-cost to repair. Therefore finding them in loot isn't that rewarding, except when they are of a higher tier. But then you only need to find a higher tier once, since you can repair it. So subsequent finds are less rewarding.

[Orclover]

At the current game development you can sink all your points into Lucky Looter and get out of stone tools in an hour or two with standard settings.  Hard part is squeezing off a few dozen kills with the beginner weapons.  But if you can brave through the initial fights, even on normal settings (not easy), you can have a iron stage melee weapon and a iron tool or two within an hour.  Before it gets dark.

 

Thats ok for me honestly.  Fighting zeds with level 1 stone age weapons or whacking on items for minutes at a time gets old.  Real old real fast.

[Hellsmoke]

I expect there to be a chance right from the start. Knowing what I will get and when takes the fun out of looting. That's what the item quality levels are for, to limit you from getting the best from the start. Now we have two gates on looting, item levels and game stage. This takes away the feeling that you could get lucky and find something nice and takes a big chunk of the excitement out of looting. 

[Maharin]

I think once they get the game stage modifiers in place for POIs and biomes we will see a lot better loot system.  As it is now, I don't usually care too much about what I find because I usually try to build everything I can so I spread out my points to gain access to as much crafting as I can and build up from there.

 

So I guess my answer is I don't really think about how soon anything gets looted because most loot becomes resources for me.  I even sell my bullets in the beginning to make additional money.  I value knowledge over loot in just about every way so I would buy a book from a trader before I'd buy a gun or other weapon.

[Scyris]

Day 1, 5 mins in, I want my loot to be random like a18 is, where you can find anything on any day, just with chances of the better stuff rising as gamestage rising. I've pretty much quit 7dtd over the A19 loot changes as its made the game boring, going out and looting stuff to see what I find was one of the main draws the game had for me, and the linear loot/schematic setup it uses now completly destroyed that.

 

The linear loot would work if this was a linear rpg, however its not, its a fully destructable sandbox pretty much, and having loot linear like this just ruins it. TFP has done many dumb things over the years but this loot change has to be by and far the biggest, even bigger than removing learn by doing. Even them removing LBD didn't stop me from enjoying the game. But this loot change? Has killed pretty much all the fun and enjoyment I had in the game. I am also not the only one who feels like this.

 

I also sometimes play dead is dead on higher difficulties, which means when I die I delete the save, sometimes the world and start over, a18's loot was perfect for this because it turned every single game into a unique experience as I never knew what I was going to find. A19's loot? its the same thing every time, no randomness, no variation, just the same static loot over and over, after the 3rd game I started I just lost all interest in a19 unless this is fixed in a a19.1 patch, and by fixed I mean reverting to a18's loot as it was perfect and did not need to be touched, other than adding the new items into it that a19 brought of course. Though they could make it a tiny bit harder to find the good stuff in a18's loot by modifying the values in loot.xml a tad.

 

I also dislike how a19 linear loot also has guarnteed quality 5-6 items in every single container, this was yet another thing a18 handled better, quality 1-3 was common but 4-6 were rare even at higher gamestages, so it made crafting more important if you wanted quality 4-5 items early. Compared to a19, where there is little point to crafting, wait a bit and you'll be handed quality 6 of everything, you do not need certain things early game.

 

All in all the a19 loot change has pretty much ruined the game for a lot of players, and needs to be revereted back to a18 loot, even with their endgame plan, a18 loot is still the better version, as you could apply the gamestage boosts for poi tier and biome to the a18 loot system just as easly as the a19 one.

 

I really hope they change it, as 7dtd went from a game I used to play a ton in a18, to a game I've not played much at all since a19 experimental due to the loot being so poorly done, and so boring comapred to a18.

27 minutes ago, Maharin said:

I think once they get the game stage modifiers in place for POIs and biomes we will see a lot better loot system.  As it is now, I don't usually care too much about what I find because I usually try to build everything I can so I spread out my points to gain access to as much crafting as I can and build up from there.

 

So I guess my answer is I don't really think about how soon anything gets looted because most loot becomes resources for me.  I even sell my bullets in the beginning to make additional money.  I value knowledge over loot in just about every way so I would buy a book from a trader before I'd buy a gun or other weapon.

Naw, it'll still be the same linear garbage even with those put in, the main problem is at any GS you know exactly what loot and what quality your going to find in every container of that type. Havng biomes and poi tier boost your gamestage temporarly is not going to fix the problem. Especially when you could apply the same system to a18. as Gamestages effected chances to find steel tools or guns etc even on day 1, as well as what tier, you could find a steel tool early even on day 1 in a18 (I've had it happen) but it was quality 1, still much better than iron or primitive though. Its was rng early game, as gamestage rises you have higher and higher chance to find the higher tech items in loot at higher qualities, though again quality 4-6 was rare in a18, and even at high gamestage it was not super easy to find.

 

The fact Roland even had to make a poll on it kinda shows there is a big problem with the playerbase with the change, and the general reaction is that people don't like the a19 loot system at all. Dispite what the poll might say, these forums aren't super populated so a poll is kinda pointless.

[Maharin]

25 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Naw, it'll still be the same linear garbage even with those put in, the main problem is at any GS you know exactly what loot and what quality your going to find in every container of that type. Havng biomes and poi tier boost your gamestage temporarly is not going to fix the problem. Especially when you could apply the same system to a18. as Gamestages effected chances to find steel tools or guns etc even on day 1, as well as what tier, you could find a steel tool early even on day 1 in a18 (I've had it happen) but it was quality 1, still much better than iron or primitive though. Its was rng early game, as gamestage rises you have higher and higher chance to find the higher tech items in loot at higher qualities, though again quality 4-6 was rare in a18, and even at high gamestage it was not super easy to find.

 

The fact Roland even had to make a poll on it kinda shows there is a big problem with the playerbase with the change, and the general reaction is that people don't like the a19 loot system at all. Dispite what the poll might say, these forums aren't super populated so a poll is kinda pointless.

The game stage bump in a POI will mean there will be a broader range of loot inside that given POI.  Since it also combines with the biome boost it can be significant and can also be modded.  So you could have your military base in the wasteland have badass zombies and great loot, even on day one.  You're not likely to be tough enough to clear it, though.  At least this is the way I understand it is supposed to work.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Scyris 21K playing right now, that´s a lot. Pretty sure A16 never had over 20K. I think you are utterly wrong. Most understand that this is just a step on the way to a new system. We will get a wider variety of loot in low levels with new items. I guess a new stage of tools and weapons, maybe scrap metal?  I am actually surprised that so many thought it´s gonna stay like it was. It´s standard in games that you can´t have everything everywhere from start on. Be happy that there aren´t items that need a certain level before you can use them. Also a common practice in games. Or having classes that can´t use certain things at all.

 

I am active on FB groups and read on steam. Yes a lot aren´t happy with the current state. But like said, they realize this is not the final form and that there is more to come.

[Xtrakicking]

It's not a matter of sooner or later, the loot tables are just really badly thought out. In my opinion, they should drop the idea of giving out so much primitive gear and stick with giving resources to players instead. I'd much rather get a couple gun parts than 5 blunderbusses. I'd also much rather get maybe 5 iron ingots than another two stone axes that I'm going to scrap. This way I can at least look forward to looting early on again, and can even help players with building their bases for the first horde.

 

The issue isn't getting awesome gear sooner, the issue is that early loot is repetitive, worthless (can't sell it and most of it ends up getting scrapped, meaning that you only get stones out of safes and crates) and nonsensical; and also the fact that no matter what POIs or containers you loot, you're always getting the same predictable stuff. The loot in a house is the same one you get in a military base. That's a big no-no, and I'm glad gamestage modifiers for POI types are planned.

[mr.devolver]

The problem is that in the past people used to be able to REALLY play at their own pace which means they could play at slower pace, BUT also at faster pace if they chose so.

 

Therefore it provided freedom of choice.

 

Loot system of Alpha 19, simply threw that freedom of choice out of window and forced everyone to level up at the same pace. Loot system of Alpha 19 is new Skill system of Alpha 17. Same kind of limiting decision that wasn't really well received and was reworked for Alpha 18 based on feedback of the players and I believe that just like then, they will play with this loot system further to adjust it better in the future.

 

Hopefully this new telemetry will help them with that...

[alanea]

1-7 primitive  7-21 iron 21+ steel

[Roland]

I'm pretty sure the potential to get anything is still there for day 1. It is just extremely rare. There are not separate loot tables for the different gamestage milestones. It is just a shifting of probabilities. Those probabilities will probably continue to get tuned. This is not the first time getting good loot was incredibly rare and A18 wasn't the first time loot was incredibly abundant. The point is that they can play with the numbers a bit so that more stories of good drops on day 1 trickle through the community and get everyone's hopes up. 

 

@Scyris you need to stop copying and pasting your original post on this topic into every thread you visit. They are not reverting back to A18. They have the system in place that they want and they have a plan and they are going to design it. Part of that is adding the other features I mentioned but part of it is also adjusting probabilities until it feels right. They aren't just going to abandon it and go back to an old system that a lot of people also disliked and complained about. Rather than continually demanding that they revert (which they will not do) the better tactic is to ask them to adjust the probabilites for 19.1. Madmole has admitted that he likes to make bold huge shifts and then bring it back slowly until it feels right. Go to the A19 thread and suggest he look at the probabilities. 

 

It may not work. He might tell you to get off your ass and mod it yourself if you want it different. But it is the best chance you have of influencing change if you want it.

3 hours ago, mr.devolver said:

The problem is that in the past people used to be able to REALLY play at their own pace which means they could play at slower pace, BUT also at faster pace if they chose so.

 

Therefore it provided freedom of choice.

 

Loot system of Alpha 19, simply threw that freedom of choice out of window and forced everyone to level up at the same pace. Loot system of Alpha 19 is new Skill system of Alpha 17. Same kind of limiting decision that wasn't really well received and was reworked for Alpha 18 based on feedback of the players and I believe that just like then, they will play with this loot system further to adjust it better in the future.

 

Hopefully this new telemetry will help them with that...

That is so not true. You think there are no players rushing the game any more? We just had a guy on this thread give one tip on how to get to iron age before the end of the first day. Traders still sell high end gear in the store and spamming quests still net $$$$ if you want play fast. You can change settings to 300% xp and 40 minute days and cruise through the primitive age in a snap. Eventually, when the system is completely in place you choose where to go for the type of loot you want for ultimate freedom.

 

I respect your opinion of not liking the current system but saying that there is no freedom to play the game at your own pace anymore is silly. 

[Scyris]

4 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

It's not a matter of sooner or later, the loot tables are just really badly thought out. In my opinion, they should drop the idea of giving out so much primitive gear and stick with giving resources to players instead. I'd much rather get a couple gun parts than 5 blunderbusses. I'd also much rather get maybe 5 iron ingots than another two stone axes that I'm going to scrap. This way I can at least look forward to looting early on again, and can even help players with building their bases for the first horde.

 

The issue isn't getting awesome gear sooner, the issue is that early loot is repetitive, worthless (can't sell it and most of it ends up getting scrapped, meaning that you only get stones out of safes and crates) and nonsensical; and also the fact that no matter what POIs or containers you loot, you're always getting the same predictable stuff. The loot in a house is the same one you get in a military base. That's a big no-no, and I'm glad gamestage modifiers for POI types are planned.

This here, but some people are apparently too damn stupid to realise what the problem with the loot is. Even with the GS modifiers its still going to be completly linear. Your just getting a bump to the next tier most likely of linear loot is all. I still vote we go back to a18 loot and be done with it in a19.1, as this loot is garbage, and adding poi/biome gamestage boosts is NOT going to fix its inherant problem, which is 0 randomness 100% static loot.

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, Scyris said:

This here, but some people are apparently too damn stupid to realise what the problem with the loot is.

I know you're angry but you're flying too close to the sun with statements like this. Better descend a bit...

 

8 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Even with the GS modifiers its still going to be completly linear. Your just getting a bump to the next tier most likely of linear loot is all.

You're wrong. The loot tables are still random. It won't be linear because going into different POIs and different biomes will yield different results.

 

11 minutes ago, Scyris said:

I still vote we go back to a18 loot and be done with it in a19.1

A vote for that is wasted. Think of suggestions to work within the current system and vote for those. They have a better chance of sticking to the wall.

[Scyris]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

I know you're angry but you're flying too close to the sun with statements like this. Better descend a bit...

 

You're wrong. The loot tables are still random. It won't be linear because going into different POIs and different biomes will yield different results.

 

A vote for that is wasted. Think of suggestions to work within the current system and vote for those. They have a better chance of sticking to the wall.

Its not as random as I'd like, say desert biome is +10 GS, on day 1, wooo t6 stone axes in every box! Meanwhile A18, you could find pretty much anything in any container. The point I am trying to make is that its too linear, and certain containers need to not have certain items, Like if I open a gunsafe I expect guns (Pistols at a minimum even on day 1, or double barrel shotguns) and ammo, not stone tier items, Same for working stiff boxes, I'd expect at least iron stuff even on day 1 for tools. For the metal boxes at the end of poi's there should be no stone items in there either. Maybe its just me, I like randomness, and the a19 and its planned progression path is just not random to me compared to a18. I mean, what if your in the middle of a forest and closest other biome is 2-4 km+ away? Its the same reason why I almost never play on Navezgane, I dislike static maps in sandbox games especially ones like 7dtd. Navezgane is a beautiful map though, devs did some great work on it, I just prefer rwg because each map is.. kinda different. I love to explore, so rwg is my haven to make each game unique somewhat.

 

I do wonder how rwg is in a19 stable though, as I recently upgraded my pc from a i5-7500 to Ryzen 7 3700x. Which according to benckmark scores is a pretty massive upgrade, went from 6000 to 22000 on passmark. Rwg I just wish was faster is my main issue with it currently, it just seems reallly slow in game for some reason.

 

As for suggestions to work with the current system, like I said above, stone items/primitive items should not be in certain loot containers like the ones I mentioned, they'd fit more inside garbage bags and such.

[Scyris]

11 hours ago, Orclover said:

At the current game development you can sink all your points into Lucky Looter and get out of stone tools in an hour or two with standard settings.  Hard part is squeezing off a few dozen kills with the beginner weapons.  But if you can brave through the initial fights, even on normal settings (not easy), you can have a iron stage melee weapon and a iron tool or two within an hour.  Before it gets dark.

 

Thats ok for me honestly.  Fighting zeds with level 1 stone age weapons or whacking on items for minutes at a time gets old.  Real old real fast.

You could but thats a few wasted skill points imo that are precious early game, I could think of many better things to put those into, like miner 69'er and str, and a club or sledge weapon. My first 4 skill points usually go like this: 2 in miner 69'er, 1 in str, 1 in adv engineering 1 (to unlock forge early), often got forged iron production goung before day 1 is over depends on finding the parts to make said forge. I never add to intel after that and rely on the loot to get my recipes.. the problem here is, with the linear loot, I think even the schematics are in it, so there is for example 0 chance to find so and so schematic before a certain GS. I'd hate to see what GS you need before you can find the crucible or its recipe. In A18 I usually had one by day 8-14 or so from looting with 1 int and 0 in lucky looter, I have gone as long as day 28 or so without it though, thats what I meant by randomness and what made it fun to restart, never know what your gonna find.

 

The current loot system in a19, along with the digging zombies and now swimming zombies just took choice away from the player. If someone wants to hide in a hole to escape the horde? let them imo, its their game. What could fix the whole issue though is adding a setting to game options to turn on/off digging zombies, and a 3rd settting to only allow animals to dig like zombie dogs (as dogs digging makes sense, zombies doing it do not), and swimming zombies. Ark survival evolved for example has a massive amount of sliders and settings you can play with when you start a game, 7dtd needs more options in that vein.

 

I used to build my bases underground in a16 and fight the horde above ground, why did I make it below ground you ask? Simple, I hate the SI mechanics and they hate me. 80% of the time I make a base I put 1 block to many by accdient and then the entire thing collapses on me wasting all my time and resources. I'd like the SI to be changed so Only the more recent block falls instead of it causing more often than not a cascade that takes out mutiple floors. Or, some visual/audio tell that the SI is about to pass the limit.

[mr.devolver]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

That is so not true. You think there are no players rushing the game any more? We just had a guy on this thread give one tip on how to get to iron age before the end of the first day. Traders still sell high end gear in the store and spamming quests still net $$$$ if you want play fast. You can change settings to 300% xp and 40 minute days and cruise through the primitive age in a snap. Eventually, when the system is completely in place you choose where to go for the type of loot you want for ultimate freedom.

 

I respect your opinion of not liking the current system but saying that there is no freedom to play the game at your own pace anymore is silly.

It's ok, mr. Always Disagree.

[JCrook1028]

4 hours ago, Scyris said:

I'd hate to see what GS you need before you can find the crucible or its recipe. In A18 I usually had one by day 8-14

That right there is the prefect illustration of why A18 was so broken. That's why they fixed it. Thank you for the example.

[Solomon]

Right at the start, if they want the base game to be slow like it is currently then manipulate the quality tiers instead.

[beHypE]

17 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

That right there is the prefect illustration of why A18 was so broken. That's why they fixed it. Thank you for the example.

That being said if you replace 'usually' with 'sometimes' it becomes a pretty good illustration of what was amazing back in the days and what is terrible now. 

 

Scyris is probably overexagerating by some margin but I get where he is coming from. No matter how many raised gamestages POI's you loot in the future, you'll still know exactly what's in the loot tables and what isn't. I'd much rather have them make the best crates / chests less abundant and give them a balanced probability of finding something good once in a while. Unpredictability is key in a looting game, and sadly there just aren't enough items in the game to stay random while linear. 

 

As for the original question, I wish I couldn't answer it, because being able to answer such a question is exactly what I dislike with the new progression. 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Fascinating. Now things that aren´t even in the game get labeled as bad already.  Can you tell me the lotto numbers for next week please. Also you can turn off the horde instead of hiding in a hole. Same result. 

[guardianangelmp]

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah boxes I open.

 

The believable probability of there not being something worth while in those containers is next to nil.

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Scyris said:

... Like if I open a gunsafe I expect guns (Pistols at a minimum even on day 1, or double barrel shotguns) and ammo, not stone tier items, ..

I fully endorse this but then I also expect that I'm not able to open locked gunsafes at all until I got lots of training as a safecracker and the neccessary equipment, a blow torch or a drill with lots of diamond drill-bits. 😉

 

33 minutes ago, guardianangelmp said:

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah boxes I open.

 

The believable probability of there not being something worth while in those containers is next to nil.

You can open safes in shotgun messiahs? Unbelievable 😉

[Roland]

This is not a new argument. Back in Alpha 14ish when gun parts and weapon assembling were added, you no longer found any whole guns in safes. You only found parts everywhere and the people who wanted to find guns were (excuse me) all up in arms about it. But eventually it became the norm and then when parts and assembling went away with the change to modifications and guns were back in the safes people were upset about the parts system going away. 

 

Now you read people saying that they would be happy to just find parts in the safes. It really is interesting how such perspectives shift. I myself was upset about the removal of iron ore but now I don't even think about it. Time heals all wounds.