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How soon do you expect to see better than primitive loot?


Reckis

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On 8/27/2020 at 10:42 AM, Reckis said:

I thought about making this a poll, but decided that might be to limiting for responses

 

How soon do you expect to see loot that is better than primitive?

 

Personally, I think it is fine where it is. I look forward to getting that Q4-6 primitive tool, especially on my builds that cant make anything better than a Q1.

 

I agree.  I like this sort of progression.  I also like the fact that many times, in order to get said items - I don't have to raid big brand locations to get those either.

But how soon do I expect?  I've started to find iron loot as early as GS13+, and more regularly at GS30+.  This takes about a week of in game time when I play 90 minute days typically.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Scyris said:

Day 1, 5 mins in, I want my loot to be random like a18 is, where you can find anything on any day, just with chances of the better stuff rising as gamestage rising. I've pretty much quit 7dtd over the A19 loot changes as its made the game boring, going out and looting stuff to see what I find was one of the main draws the game had for me, and the linear loot/schematic setup it uses now completly destroyed that.

nothing is linear youc an still have lets say ak on  day 1  chance is just lower and it will be low quality

21 hours ago, Scyris said:

The linear loot would work if this was a linear rpg, however its not, its a fully destructable sandbox pretty much, and having loot linear like this just ruins it. TFP has done many dumb things over the years but this loot change has to be by and far the biggest, even bigger than removing learn by doing. Even them removing LBD didn't stop me from enjoying the game. But this loot change? Has killed pretty much all the fun and enjoyment I had in the game. I am also not the only one who feels like this.

 

 it turned every single game into a unique experience as I never knew what I was going to find.

 yeah  every run was unique depending whether  you found  Q5-6   shotgun or ak on first day :D  massacred  slow zombies( defined by gamestage)  and called it survival

21 hours ago, Scyris said:

I also dislike how a19 linear loot also has guarnteed quality 5-6 items in every single container, this was yet another thing a18 handled better, quality 1-3 was common but 4-6 were rare even at higher gamestages, so it made crafting more important if you wanted quality 4-5 items early. Compared to a19, where there is little point to crafting, wait a bit and you'll be handed quality 6 of everything, you do not need certain things early game.

err thats straight lie  ..  most boxes dont contain any   q5-6  even at  day  30+

21 hours ago, Scyris said:

All in all the a19 loot change has pretty much ruined the game for a lot of players, and needs to be revereted back to a18 loot, even with their endgame plan, a18 loot is still the better version, as you could apply the gamestage boosts for poi tier and biome to the a18 loot system just as easly as the a19 one.

"lot of  players"   theres like  10 people  whining about it on forum thats it  overall theres more people  pissed by specific parts of new loot(like shovel in safe)  but liking  progressive loot  that whiners  .. and you donmt even have to count people who are rather happy with m19  calling just for minor changes or biome bonus

 

 

21 hours ago, Scyris said:

I really hope they change it, as 7dtd went from a game I used to play a ton in a18, to a game I've not played much at all since a19 experimental due to the loot being so poorly done, and so boring comapred to a18.

Naw, it'll still be the same linear garbage even with those put in, the main problem is at any GS you know exactly what loot and what quality your going to find in every container of that type. Havng biomes and poi tier boost your gamestage temporarly is not going to fix the problem. Especially when you could apply the same system to a18. as Gamestages effected chances to find steel tools or guns etc even on day 1, as well as what tier, you could find a steel tool early even on day 1 in a18

actually nope  gamestage added just percentage to loot quantity thats all   item types and quality stayed same (  modified only by perk (making hugher  quality pieces more common)  but still pure rng randomly droping  q5-6  top tier weapons even on  day   1  with some luck (or looting few poi)

21 hours ago, Scyris said:

 

The fact Roland even had to make a poll on it kinda shows there is a big problem with the playerbase with the change, and the general reaction is that people don't like the a19 loot system at all. Dispite what the poll might say, these forums aren't super populated so a poll is kinda pointless.

actually all polls  about a19  loot ended as clear " i like a19  loot but it needs some tweaks"

3 hours ago, Roland said:

This is not a new argument. Back in Alpha 14ish when gun parts and weapon assembling were added, you no longer found any whole guns in safes. You only found parts everywhere and the people who wanted to find guns were (excuse me) all up in arms about it. But eventually it became the norm and then when parts and assembling went away with the change to modifications and guns were back in the safes people were upset about the parts system going away. 

 

Now you read people saying that they would be happy to just find parts in the safes. It really is interesting how such perspectives shift. I myself was upset about the removal of iron ore but now I don't even think about it. Time heals all wounds.

thats actuall bs  since  weapon parts dropped commonly ...  but you could still loot completed gun  reasonably often.. not  to mention most air drops contained one

problem  was the requirement of  skillbook to  exchange parts /repair   keeping you  behind double rng

 

a17  made both weapons and ammo  basically  standard  starting gear (  with game stage adding just % to loot abundance with  no impact on item  /quality)

for example i never used iron tools in a17  a18  as stone served well on first day  and day  7 meant full set of steel tools  /weapons (4-6)

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9 minutes ago, alanea said:

actually nope  gamestage added just percentage to loot quantity thats all   item types and quality stayed same (  modified only by perk (making hugher  quality pieces more common)  but still pure rng randomly droping  q5-6  top tier weapons even on  day   1  with some luck (or looting few poi)

This doesn't appear to be correct.

 

Looking at the xml it appears that T1 can't drop until GS10, T2 until 49, and T3 until 89.

Quality 4 can't drop until GS 50, Q5 until 80, and Q6 until 110.

 

Unless I'm reading them wrong

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15 minutes ago, alanea said:

thats actuall bs  since  weapon parts dropped commonly ...  but you could still loot completed gun  reasonably often..

If you say so. I remember it differently. I remember quite a few threads complaining about how nobody in America keeps only gun parts in their safes and it was ridiculous that whole guns were nowhere to be found. 

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On 8/27/2020 at 10:37 PM, Scyris said:

Day 1, 5 mins in, I want my loot to be random like a18 is, where you can find anything on any day, just with chances of the better stuff rising as gamestage rising. I've pretty much quit 7dtd over the A19 loot changes as its made the game boring, going out and looting stuff to see what I find was one of the main draws the game had for me, and the linear loot/schematic setup it uses now completly destroyed that.

Literally this, for me too.

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Those of you looking for easy mode to kill zombies in the beginning, spec knives and make a level 2 bone knife.  Stab zombies in the head.  It takes practice but unless you have them running at top speed in your settings you can do this with better than good odds of surviving.  I play on survivalist difficulty and can still kill zombies reliably on day one using this tactic.

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On 8/28/2020 at 7:00 AM, Scyris said:

I never add to intel after that and rely on the loot to get my recipes.. the problem here is, with the linear loot, I think even the schematics are in it, so there is for example 0 chance to find so and so schematic before a certain GS. I'd hate to see what GS you need before you can find the crucible or its recipe. In A18 I usually had one by day 8-14 or so from looting with 1 int and 0 in lucky looter, I have gone as long as day 28 or so without it though, thats what I meant by randomness and what made it fun to restart, never know what your gonna find.

actually int is strongest attribute since a17

by not  getting it  you lose large amount of 

dukes (better barter multiplies signicficantly value of loot) 

materials(forge bonus)

trader offer

 solar energy

as well as locking out vehicles until you get  lucky

 

Capp00  in his series found first crucible in a18  at day  43

 

yeah crucible recipe was  easy to get for most ... ( high chance to finding  destroyed forges) .. they quite nerfed that in a19

i had myself cruc before day  20  from loot  and seen atleast  4 at traders ( first around day 10)

overall a19 cruc is definitely easier to get than a18 (not really good thing)

On 8/28/2020 at 7:00 AM, Scyris said:

The current loot system in a19, along with the digging zombies and now swimming zombies just took choice away from the player. If someone wants to hide in a hole to escape the horde? let them imo, its their game.

nah swiming /digging  just removed  hole in game  based on unfinished  zombie behavior

 

7 dies to die  "survival" game oh iam so scared lets dig self up  3 blocks deep and completely skip the ultimate challenge thats game build upon

On 8/28/2020 at 11:32 AM, Solomon said:

Right at the start, if they want the base game to be slow like it is currently then manipulate the quality tiers instead.

the want you to prohress through all tiers  if you cant live 2-3 weeks  with  mix of stone / iron tools  then problem isnt in game ;) what if steel tools didnt exist ? would you still cosider  iron  pickaxe at day  7 trash ?

people are just used to have everything instantly = fail of a17 a18  where you usually had  more than one iron/steel tier tool just from looting cars  searching for city on day  1  .. it spoiled many people to consider that normal and those people now demand everything and immediately because they feel someone took something away from them

On 8/28/2020 at 4:17 PM, guardianangelmp said:

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah boxes I open.

 

The believable probability of there not being something worth while in those containers is next to nil.

 5  is small measure   for rng based drop .... but you are likely to leave with low tier gun  bunch of ammo and some high tier stone shovels / bows  with some mods and silver/gold

something that turns you into incarnation of death ready on amssacre top gamestage hordes on foot ?  nope

enought to be upgrade for you  and bring some dukes ?  definitely

23 hours ago, Roland said:

This is not a new argument. Back in Alpha 14ish when gun parts and weapon assembling were added, you no longer found any whole guns in safes. You only found parts everywhere and the people who wanted to find guns were (excuse me) all up in arms about it. But eventually it became the norm and then when parts and assembling went away with the change to modifications and guns were back in the safes people were upset about the parts system going away. 

 

Now you read people saying that they would be happy to just find parts in the safes. It really is interesting how such perspectives shift. I myself was upset about the removal of iron ore but now I don't even think about it. Time heals all wounds.

 

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44 minutes ago, alanea said:

the want you to prohress through all tiers  if you cant live 2-3 weeks  with  mix of stone / iron tools  then problem isnt in game ;) what if steel tools didnt exist ? would you still cosider  iron  pickaxe at day  7 trash ?

people are just used to have everything instantly = fail of a17 a18  where you usually had  more than one iron/steel tier tool just from looting cars  searching for city on day  1  .. it spoiled many people to consider that normal and those people now demand everything and immediately because they feel someone took something away from them

If steel tools wouldnt exist i would still complain about stone tools in the loot. These are cheap as hell tutorial items, stuff what you throw out the second you get your hands on the next tier of equipment. Its like white rarity gear in an mmo, most people dont even bother picking them up because its worthless.

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3 hours ago, Solomon said:

These are cheap as hell tutorial items, stuff what you throw out the second you get your hands on the next tier of equipment.

You repeat this over and over again but it is not true. They are not tutorial tools. They are regular tools and useful.

 

Some people keep the stone axe for a long time because it is a universal tool that can be used as axe, pickaxe and repair tools but it only needs one slot in your inventory. With mods and points in Miner 69 it is not even that weak. And if I want to dig up something and I don't have my pickaxe or auger with me, I quickly make myself a stone shovel. Works as well.

 

I found a Q6 Blunderbuss with ammo during a T5 quest today. So I put it on my belt and used it for the rest of the quest. I play on Nomad difficulty and a Blunderbuss rips the head off most zombie at point blank range if you have points in Boomstick. But even if the zombie survives this, he' usually winded or stunned. That's why the Blunderbuss is still a serious weapon in the endgame.

 

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I'm liking A19's progression for better than primitive in loot. It's not like looting ever feels useless even day 1. I was skeptical until I actually played and saw how it is in practice.

5 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Some people keep the stone axe for a long time because it is a universal tool that can be used as axe, pickaxe and repair tools but it only needs one slot in your inventory.

I'm at GS 110 now and still use stone axe so I concur 

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

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4 hours ago, Tmodloader said:

I'm liking A19's progression for better than primitive in loot. It's not like looting ever feels useless even day 1. I was skeptical until I actually played and saw how it is in practice.

I'm at GS 110 now and still use stone axe so I concur 

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

GS 138 and I'm still using a stone axe for wood, while using an auger for mining and serious deconstruction work

 

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4 hours ago, Tmodloader said:

I'm liking A19's progression for better than primitive in loot. It's not like looting ever feels useless even day 1. I was skeptical until I actually played and saw how it is in practice.

I'm at GS 110 now and still use stone axe so I concur 

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

I think whats broken is clearing a high tier POI too early (exclude cheese clears...).  Although most of us don't do it, game should reward the player for that accomplishment whereas the loot progression kicks u in the balls instead.  The long term plan addresses this, but just pointing it out in its current state.

 

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7 hours ago, Tmodloader said:

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

well some people call it useless early but

lucky looter is extremely valuable for both parts  +25% to gamestage and 0,00s opening for 99% containers .. feels kinda fine to me

snd since its percentage it keeps same strenght for whole game (yes it adds  less on lower GS but every GS added have higherr impact on those levels)

 

the only questionable part is  1/5  on  low gamestage .. cant say i tested this  but 5% bonus might be rounded to  +0  GS?  ... anyay  its exactly perk that shorten  "stone /iron age"  so complainers around should love it :D

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

I think whats broken is clearing a high tier POI too early (exclude cheese clears...).  Although most of us don't do it, game should reward the player for that accomplishment whereas the loot progression kicks u in the balls instead.  The long term plan addresses this, but just pointing it out in its current state.

 

what acomplishmen you mean high tier poi are no harder than low tier poi if you go in on first week you wont meet single runner/greenie the only difference is lenght ... on other side poi like factory or dishong have quite alot crates along the way

so yeah its equally difficult to any other poi ... just not worth it  time wise .... as you probabnly have to spend night inside and lose all resources you could mine (unless you play on low difficulties / have death wish and want fight high amount of runners early

 

exception is waterworks ... but that one is ridiculously  short compared to both of mentioned

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1 hour ago, alanea said:

...what acomplishmen you mean high tier poi are no harder than low tier poi if you go in on first week you wont meet single runner/greenie the only difference is lenght ... on other side poi like factory or dishong have quite alot crates along the way

so yeah its equally difficult to any other poi ... just not worth it  time wise .... as you probabnly have to spend night inside and lose all resources you could mine (unless you play on low difficulties / have death wish and want fight high amount of runners early

 

exception is waterworks ... but that one is ridiculously  short compared to both of mentioned

Time investment is the kicker.  If the loot at the end of a T5 POI was better (not just higher quantity) it could be worth the time investment early game to plow through it.  Since a player can't farm T5 quests right away, it wouldnt be too OP imo.

 

Regardless of the low gamestage it still does take some skill for the average player to kill threw that many zeds and make it to the end at a low level and early game equip.

 

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11 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You repeat this over and over again but it is not true. They are not tutorial tools. They are regular tools and useful.

 

Some people keep the stone axe for a long time because it is a universal tool that can be used as axe, pickaxe and repair tools but it only needs one slot in your inventory. With mods and points in Miner 69 it is not even that weak. And if I want to dig up something and I don't have my pickaxe or auger with me, I quickly make myself a stone shovel. Works as well.

 

I found a Q6 Blunderbuss with ammo during a T5 quest today. So I put it on my belt and used it for the rest of the quest. I play on Nomad difficulty and a Blunderbuss rips the head off most zombie at point blank range if you have points in Boomstick. But even if the zombie survives this, he' usually winded or stunned. That's why the Blunderbuss is still a serious weapon in the endgame.

 

Thats true but its still the item what was instructed in the tutorial to make and use.

 

I mean sure its useful and just a regular tool just like every other tutorial item in any game, even those terrible white rank weapons in mmo's are useable and count as regular weapons but that still does not change the fact that its the bottom line of all equipment, something what by game design should be thrown out the moment you find the next tiers.

 

To me it barely makes any sense that im we are only still using in steel age but a T6 stone axe performs better than a T1 iron axe. It also doesnt make much sense that the stone axe is this big of a multitool but at the moment you reach the iron age now you need to have 2-3 tools for the same function as the stone axe. It feels like its an overloaded tutorial item what was designed to ease up the early gameplay before the players are getting thrown into the actual survival.

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1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Thats true but its still the item what was instructed in the tutorial to make and use.

Just like the bedroll, the bow, the wooden club, wooden frames and a campfire. And with the exception of the primitive bow and the wooden club, we use all of this throughout the entire game.
The tutorial shows you the basics of the game but that doesn't mean that the items you craft are worthless in the later game.

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

I mean sure its useful and just a regular tool just like every other tutorial item in any game, even those terrible white rank weapons in mmo's are useable and count as regular weapons but that still does not change the fact that its the bottom line of all equipment, something what by game design should be thrown out the moment you find the next tiers.

Not necessarily. You always have to consider the advantages and disadvantages. For example, iron tools consume more stamina. You can counteract this with the appropriate perks.

 

Also with weapons you have to consider the pros and cons of each tier. I used the stone sledgehammer until I was able to build a steel hammer because the stamina consumption of the iron sledgehammer was not worth the additional damage. A M60 is not as precise as a tactical assault rifle and the reload animation is much longer. Therefore some prefer the tactical assault rifle as primary weapon over the M60 although it is one tier below the M60.

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

To me it barely makes any sense that im we are only still using in steel age but a T6 stone axe performs better than a T1 iron axe.

This is because you can't seem to accept that it is just a game. A game developer can decide to integrate a cardboard axe into the game that is better than a steel axe. Is that realistic? No, but it is a game and cardboard or steel are only words to describe something. I doesn't matter if one material is actual better in reality. What really count in a game are the stats.

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

It also doesnt make much sense that the stone axe is this big of a multitool but at the moment you reach the iron age now you need to have 2-3 tools for the same function as the stone axe.

One reason for this could be that they didn't want to put more work in it than necessary. If they had separated the functions of the hammer and pickaxe from the stone axe, they would also have had to create new models and balance the tools. That means they have to invest more resources into this tiny detail. If you have limited resources, you always have to decide how to spend them. You cannot do everything you would like to do.

 

There are mods where there is a stone hammer and the ability to repair or upgrade something is removed from the stone axe. The consequence is that one slot more in the inventory is occupied. However, in these mods you usually have a larger inventory.

 

Be glad that the stone axe is so versatile. With it you save a lot of inventory space when it is still limited.

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

It feels like its an overloaded tutorial item what was designed to ease up the early gameplay before the players are getting thrown into the actual survival.

I have a completely different opinion. The tutorial does not give you any armor or show you how to fight the zombies and it does not give you a blueprint for a horde base. The beginner does not even know how to put the arrow into the bow. The game gives you the bare minimum on informationen in this tutorial.
 

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On 8/28/2020 at 9:09 PM, alanea said:

actually all polls  about a19  loot ended as clear " i like a19  loot but it needs some tweaks"

Uuumm, this is very misleading. The results of all polls concerning A19 loot are as follows:

 

1. Should Primitive Stone tools be found in Sealed Pre-Apocalypse Boxes? 38 answered "yes", 129 people answered "no".

2. How do you feel about the current loot progression within the context of the overall plan? 23 said they hated it and hated the plan, 29 said they disliked it but were ok with the plan, 35 said they liked it and liked the plan, no one said they loved it and wanted it to stay as is.

3. Do you like the A19 loot system? 27 answered "yes", 33 answered "no".

 

Now, while the second poll has 35 people saying they liked it, the people who dislike it and the people who hate it combined are 52.

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1 minute ago, Xtrakicking said:

Uuumm, this is very misleading. The results of all polls concerning A19 loot are as follows:

 

1. Should Primitive Stone tools be found in Sealed Pre-Apocalypse Boxes? 38 answered "yes", 129 people answered "no".

2. How do you feel about the current loot progression within the context of the overall plan? 23 said they hated it and hated the plan, 29 said they disliked it but were ok with the plan, 35 said they liked it and liked the plan, no one said they loved it and wanted it to stay as is.

3. Do you like the A19 loot system? 27 answered "yes", 33 answered "no".

 

Now, while the second poll has 35 people saying they liked it, the people who dislike it and the people who hate it combined are 52.

We should have a poll asking which poll people thought was most accurate.  A nerd poll, if you will.

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1 minute ago, Kalen said:

We should have a poll asking which poll people thought was most accurate.  A nerd poll, if you will.

We should also do the following:

 

1. No, really, did you like the a19 loot system?

 

0 Yes

0 Yes

 

See people? There's clearly nothing wrong with the a19 loot system. Move along.

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This isn't about when to expect it. It's about chances and randomness. If it's straight linear and level locked, there is no excitement in looting left. 

 

Only having perk trees like in A17 was boring, the introduction of books made it worthwhile and gave it a randomness factor (in my opinion, books should even be more rare and also cover stuff which is not included in skill trees) - books should imho be more of a mainsty than perks, i.e. the other way round than it currently is. Then chasing recipes becomes a challenge, finding the much needed recipe a moment of exorbitant joy. 

 

Same goes for weapons. Better weapons in more difficult areas is fine, but even then there should be some randomness factor. Like, it's okay to find a steel sledge even early in game or in an easy building. It shouldn't happen every couple of gaming hours though, nut maybe in 1 out of 40 playthroughs? Make it rare, but make it possible. There is nothing as boring as exactly knowing what to expect. "I have gamestag6, i.e. this crate will definitely only contain stone stuff *yawns*" 

 

I go even further, super loot shouldn't be as frequent as it is in later gamestages. Make finding it an event, something special. General feedback suggest, that most people see it that way and that looting has become boring.

 

There has been too much fallout cloning here. This game is special. Leave it its own character, there is no need for a 7 days to fallout. I do NOT want it easiert. I do NOT want better loot. I want more thrill, more excitement what to expect. More differences in playthroughs.

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On 8/27/2020 at 8:04 PM, Hellsmoke said:

I expect there to be a chance right from the start. Knowing what I will get and when takes the fun out of looting. That's what the item quality levels are for, to limit you from getting the best from the start. Now we have two gates on looting, item levels and game stage. This takes away the feeling that you could get lucky and find something nice and takes a big chunk of the excitement out of looting. 

You nailed it!

On 8/28/2020 at 6:07 AM, Roland said:

I'm pretty sure the potential to get anything is still there for day 1. It is just extremely rare.  

That would be okay, alas it really does not feel like it. It feels like A17 level gating, before the books came and changed it for the better.

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35 minutes ago, Noctoras said:

This isn't about when to expect it. It's about chances and randomness. If it's straight linear and level locked, there is no excitement in looting left. 

In a computer game nothing is completely random. You often only have the illusion of randomness. With the information provided by the developers we have been able to take a look behind the curtain and some are now disappointed because they know how it works. It is like having a magic trick explained. Afterwards it is only half as exciting.
 

With the pipe guns that will be add in A20 there is a little more variety but already now I don't see that I always get the same. But people tend to see only weapons and tools and not everything else we get in the loot. For example if I get a pocket mod in the early game it is great because I get more space in the inventory.

 

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1 hour ago, Noctoras said:

That would be okay, alas it really does not feel like it. It feels like A17 level gating, before the books came and changed it for the better.

Looks like I was wrong about that. Some of the probabilities are set to 0 until you reach a certain gamestage. 

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Maybe part of the difference in feelings regarding the loot system is related to what people actually are looking for in the first few days.

 

Day 1-4, i am not focused on finding weapons and tools at all. I am quite happy when i find t4+ stone tools because I don't switch to iron tools until I have the perks and consumables to back them up with enough stamina and stamina regen. 

 

Weapon finds are not necessary or a goal, just welcome if they come. There are no zombies I encounter in early days that i can't kill with a primitive bow and wooden club.

 

My focus early on is books, schematics, seeds, basic crafting mats, a wrench, food, FARM PLOTS, cobblestone, and some sort of armor/clothing for each slot.

 

Day 2 morning, i usually spend walking the morning walking the streets in my town harvesting gore blocks, looting eggs from nests, and looting all the mail boxes while watching for veggie plots to harvest. I get lots of books and schematics from mail boxes and get my farm plots started. I get my bacon and eggs going, along with red tea.

 

If I had a choice of quest rewards between a q2 pistol or 3 potato seeds, I would go for the seeds every time unless I already had the recipe. (ADD SEEDS TO T1 QUEST REWARDS!)

 

Until day 8, weapons and tools are far from the most important items to me. I want fire power for the second horde. Even then, I am happy with a q6 stone ax for a long time in game. Even in a 18, I often would replace my stone ax with an auger. I do small footprint bases in single player, so i have no need for massive output from mining and tend to only mine what i actually need, and a modded q6 stone ax works very well for that, if you are gathering most of your cement and cobble from pois. 

 

I would be quite happy with the a19 loot system, even if it never changed. I am looking forward to the changes coming in a20 anyways, but i find tons of useful loot in the early days now.

 

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