LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[FA_Q2]

This can go around in circles. You need a system in place first in order to provide mod support for it. They won't provide mod support until the systems are done. The problem is they removed the possibility to mod it in. Waiting until they are done with the systems only results in not having the system in place for them to provide the mod support.

 

Not at all. They need to solidify the progression system. After that I hope, and think they will, add support to change how it works to include LBD.

[AtomicUs5000]

Not at all. They need to solidify the progression system. After that I hope, and think they will, add support to change how it works to include LBD.

 

I hope, but I don't think they will. Nothing they have said thus far has indicated that. Many of us just wanted that for now.

[OzHawkeye]

I hope, but I don't think they will. Nothing they have said thus far has indicated that. Many of us just wanted that for now.

 

While still in development, I think it's very unlikely TFP will (or perhaps even should) do that, but, like you, I hope, post-Gold it'll be something that can be modded back in with some work (it's never going to be an in-game option menu, that's for sure).

[Grue]

That is a silly response to what I stated.

 

Mod support is not coming until after gold. It has nothing to do with wrapping up a turd. It has to do with not trying to add mod support to systems that are not final. Without knowing what is actually going to make it to the final cut it would be an awfully poor decision to devote dev time to mod support for those same systems.

 

 

They are obviously in a rush to reach Gold and willing to cut major corners and skimp (technical debt) so they can say, "Hey look guys, it took a while, but we finally made it!" so they can cash in on the Summer/Winter steam sales to draw in a new batch of suckers with the shiny "Gold Edition".

 

What happened is they wasted a bunch of dev time on A17's giant steaming turd of a perk system, now they feel the need to stick with it, even though it clearly sucks (sunk cost fallacy).

 

Of course all the fanboys and fluffers here will be happy with literally anything TFP puts out regardless of the quality, so they can get away with polishing up that turd for A18.

 

 

This can go around in circles. You need a system in place first in order to provide mod support for it. They won't provide mod support until the systems are done. The problem is they removed the possibility to mod it in. Waiting until they are done with the systems only results in not having the system in place for them to provide the mod support.

 

The better approach would be to build in the mod support as you go so that it is intrinsic instead of trying to bolt it on after the fact.

That way the modders can at least try to clean up their mess as they go along, thus giving players a functional game to work with instead having to wait for this semi-mystical "Gold" release. They need to leverage the mod community.

[Roland]

They are obviously in a rush to reach Gold and willing to cut major corners and skimp (technical debt) so they can say, "Hey look guys, it took a while, but we finally made it!" so they can cash in on the Summer/Winter steam sales to draw in a new batch of suckers with the shiny "Gold Edition".

 

Madmole just said this week that Gold release is still a year out. That has got to be the slowest "rush" I've ever heard of.

 

What happened is they wasted a bunch of dev time on A17's giant steaming turd of a perk system, now they feel the need to stick with it, even though it clearly sucks (sunk cost fallacy).

 

They wasted little time on the perk system. It was one of the final things to go in and represented a very small part of A17 development time. The only reason they feel the need to stick with it is because they prefer the current design to the old design. I don't think it is so clear. I think we would have angry posts if they reversed themselves. Happy posts from you, yes. But angry posts from others that aren't you.

 

Of course all the fanboys and fluffers here will be happy with literally anything TFP puts out regardless of the quality, so they can get away with polishing up that turd for A18.

 

You are so good at naming fallacies. I bet you can name the one you committed here. It helps you to feel strong in your position to view every single person who doesn't hold with your own preferences as "fanboys" and "fluffers" with no critical thinking skills. But what it really does is reveal your own faulty thought processes. You should keep such sentiments to yourself for the sake of credibility.

[RestInPieces]

How? List the 500 ways that you can take damage from a safe source every time this point is made or just use a simple example that everyone should understand?

 

No, just have to list one of them that is not a product of a silly oversight like the above.

 

You are being disingenuous here.

 

I can easily set up a situation where I get beat on relentlessly by a zed without real risk. Just use some basic heavy armor and get a crawler alone. Done.

 

Disingenuous? You wouldn't even dream about doing it, if the disease system worked correctly. In A16 you didn't even need medicine to heal. Not even "powerlevelers" would do a completely inefficient action just to raise a single skill.

 

You had better bet they are going to waste bullets leveling the skill in a LBD system - THEY HAVE TO...It is almost necessary.

Absolutely not, they don't have to. Wasting a ton of bullets to raise a single skill slightly is terribly inefficient. No player will be inclined to do it - and that's the important part: "inclined". Not as they are now, which is obvious from all the "zombie grind" complaints. Having a common XP pool and all the essential skills and recipes as the carrot makes it far more enticing than leveling a single weapon for not even that much of a benefit.

 

This is actually one of the largest reasons that I really did not use guns in 16 - I did not want to wast the mats and therefore my weapon skills were never high enough to bother using them. If I wanted to use them wasting those mats would have been a requirement.

 

Didn't you just make my point?

 

And my general point is that those sad situations are NOT oversights - they are intrinsic with any LBD system in a game like this. I have yet to see a single LBD system that does not include endless grinding of activities players would not otherwise do. That is a necessary evil with LBD progression systems. You can accept that as a reasonable price to pay for the other immersion aspects but you are not going to eliminate that problem.

 

Well I have. Mod Skyrim properly (Requiem, CCO, etc) and you will too. Nothing is without a solution when you are able to set your own rules about anything. Saying that "it's a necessary evil/price and nothing can be done about it" only means that you are just waiting for someone else to do it first.

 

That is not to say that common pool xp does not have its downsides as well. Aside from losing the immersive aspects it also takes some of the control the devs have in guiding the players activities leading to what many are complaining about with zed farming. There will always be that one activity that is most effective in farming and therefore some players will migrate there. I think that this is far easier to combat though with proper xp balancing and has a lot less overall impact on the players play style.

 

Well, if they balance them properly, as much as possible, even if an activity is slightly more efficient it won't actually be a problem. Simply because if the benefit is small enough it will be completely overshadowed by other priorities, in other words become inefficient to repeat. The game is a mouse utopia.

 

Game progression does. You cant utilize a level one weapon in a game stage 600 world and have fun. So, no, you cant try out different weapon or play styles. Not effectively. In a LBD system, you need to restart if you really want to try out some new play styles. In a common pool xp world you can gain enough points in that alternative to make it effective in a more dangerous world or you can restart. I really like rounding out my character after I have mastered my main combat style. If I am lv 5 in heavy metal I do not want to be forced to start with level 1 in stay down just to mix it up with my character. I should be able to invest some points there when I am ready to.

 

You don't *need* to restart. You can say "compelled" instead, but not "need". Frankly it's the first time I hear about anyone restarting to try out a different weapon. EVEN if you needed to restart to try out something different - do you really need to try out everything in one playthrough? This mentality is as damaging for the game as saying that RNG is bad because you may not find a particular rare item. Doesn't mastering a couple of weapons in a playthrough suffice? Not to mention that you could also invest some points to help you start out if you really wanted to.

 

His statements there about zeds does not alarm me to much. He is correct that removing the gates will alleviate a LOT of the problem. I think the main issue is that most of us have some specific set of perks or abilities that they find intrinsic to their play. For instance, I like to build but abhor doing so before I have some iron tools. Stone tools are just so slow and boring. Inevitably, I find myself avoiding building and killing zeds instead before access to iron because of this. Without gating, we should be able to at least get the basic perks in what we want to do without farming xp. That will alleviate most of the problem out the gate when combined with breaking up intellect ans strength being so damn intrinsic to most play styles.

 

They surely alarm me but I am here for the ride. They wanted to slow down progression, which was a great thing IMO. They did it in a very, very unintuitive way (fixed rigid level requirements). No wonder people hated them. Now they are going to completely take them away, just like that, instead of bothering to try something that achieves both slower progression and more character development freedom. I am not naive, I know they must be discussing these thoroughly and they are very capable people, having achieved what they did. But seriously, won't we go back to the day 1 forge if they just remove gating? Won't that create its own problems? Anyway, as always, I try to reserve judgement for the changes and see them on my own first - we don't even know all the details yet.

 

Unfortunately, I do not hold out hope that it really will ever be balanced to the point that players are not actively seeking out zeds. I just do not think that the dev team has that in their vision anymore. Zeds are not an obstacle but a resource and I think that we all have to get used to that idea no matter how much we may hate it.

 

I did ask exactly the same thing in the dev thread and mentioned that the "zombies as obstacles" was MM's own words in the past but didn't get a reply on it (not complaining, already posts a lot). I think the complaints have and will make them see around it, at least in part.

[Tete1805]

This discussion feels pointless at this point.

I don't see one side convincing the other.

I see benefits to both systems, I just think they cater to different styles of gamers.

I will see what the future holds but I've had plenty of fun already, so no regrets.

[AtomicUs5000]

Hybrid, I tell you!

 

[RipClaw]

What I find interesting about the first few points here is that if this is truly the way you were playing then there should be no noticeable difference between 16 and 17 - at least after balance passes. Why stand on the LBD soapbox if your claims that LBD did not motivate you to change your behavior. In the new system, you can do exactly as you did before.

 

One of the differences between LBD and the current system is that LBD has leveled several things independently at the same time. When I built a base I had to collect resources and partially redesign the landscape. This was how mining was levelled. Building the base levelled construction. And there were also wandering hordes to visit on the construction site where you leveled one or more weapons and sometimes the armor.

 

With the current system there is only XP left and you have to decide at each skill point in which ability to invest it. I tried to distribute it evenly but it didn't work because the gamestage is rising way too fast. I had massive problems until I started to only put points into the skills you need for the fight. Of course you don't progress with the skills in the intelligence branch anymore if you do this.

 

You wrote yourself that some things had to be balanced so that players like me, who prefer to build rather than fight, could move forward at all. At the beginning of Alpha 17 only killing zombies brought enough XP to move forward. From this time came the beginning of this discussion and also the rejection of the current system.

[Katitof]

One of the differences between LBD and the current system is that LBD has leveled several things independently at the same time. When I built a base I had to collect resources and partially redesign the landscape. This was how mining was levelled. Building the base levelled construction. And there were also wandering hordes to visit on the construction site where you leveled one or more weapons and sometimes the armor.

 

With the current system there is only XP left and you have to decide at each skill point in which ability to invest it. I tried to distribute it evenly but it didn't work because the gamestage is rising way too fast. I had massive problems until I started to only put points into the skills you need for the fight. Of course you don't progress with the skills in the intelligence branch anymore if you do this.

 

You wrote yourself that some things had to be balanced so that players like me, who prefer to build rather than fight, could move forward at all. At the beginning of Alpha 17 only killing zombies brought enough XP to move forward. From this time came the beginning of this discussion and also the rejection of the current system.

 

If you distributed it "evenly" and still couldn't fight off zombies, then you didn't distribute it evenly(too much focus on int) and forgot to cover what you can't do(make heavy armor if no investment in health was made, buy better weapon and mods if no combat was perked up etc).

 

If gamestage is rising too quickly for you, it means your GRINDING, not playing, if you're grinding, you're going to have a lot of zombie kills and zero materials, zero equipment, no prepared base and no resources to keep yourself alife in or out of combat.

 

Previously it didn't mattered, you had everything at all times.

Now what you choose actually impacts your gameplay, what you'll have easy time with and what you'll have hard time with.

 

Also, your last argument is about first A17 iteration, since that time exp values were tweaked and they will keep getting tweaked, so if first A17 iteration spawned the discussion, that means current A17 iteration should put it down. Killing Zs is fastest exp, but doing literally anything else is still fast exp+plenty of resources on top, so as a builder you are STILL leveling up fast, but you now have to invest in defenses to protect yourself, just like combat focused build will struggle in building base and defenses for himself due to inefficiency of resource gathering.

 

You STILL can level up gathering, building and combat IF YOU CHOSE TO, if you don't go for combat and go pure builder, sorry, that's not progression system fault, that's 100% on you for prioritizing your build that way.

 

A17 is all about choices and playing how you want.

A16 was all about grinding and spamming menial tasks just to achieve the same A17 does without limiting you to mind numbling grind.

[DaVegaNL]

Madmole just said this week that Gold release is still a year out. That has got to be the slowest "rush" I've ever heard of.

 

So that's basically the development time of a single Alpha version..

[Viktoriusiii]

So that's basically the development time of a single Alpha version..

 

basicially this ^^

[Khulkhuum]

Raging discussions on!

 

WARNING! The below proposition may cause laughter, stomach ache, headaches, facepalms, WTFs or cause doubts on the authors sense of sanity, intelligence and/or logical thinking.

 

So... MY TWO CENTS: Change the XP system to something different yet the same. You gather XP from various sources, but each perk/skill requires an increasing amount of XP points to level up and your overall level is determined by how many points you invested. Something alongside Souls currencies. This allows:

1. Increasing GameStage only when you put points in (if you don't want to), but still would need to shift Ferals higher than GS 50 and Rads even more than they are now.

2. Feel the grind for XP directly, because only the lower levels will require small amounts of XP, so progression early on will be fast, slowed down by higher amounts required on higher levels. No more dull gathering of 4 skillpoints across many levels, just gather more XP!

3. Dying will diminish some of your gathered XP, making death really hurt, but lets you retain some (let's say 50%).

4. Add an NPC that will level you up! This could be done by paying a small fee and having a specific amount of XP gathered. Extend that to multiple NPCs you have to meet that will teach you appropriate skills.

5. If you're willing to mix things up, why not make a couple different XP bars (categories) which will increment from various sources. It's LBD in a new light, but allowing usage of General XP (gathered alongside specific XP). Think gathering XP like in Fable (additional paremeter of name "TYPE" in the ExpGain attributes everywhere in XMLs).

[RipClaw]

If gamestage is rising too quickly for you, it means your GRINDING, not playing, if you're grinding, you're going to have a lot of zombie kills and zero materials, zero equipment, no prepared base and no resources to keep yourself alife in or out of combat.

 

Actually I was only looking for iron tools because I couldn't make them myself up to level 20. I did quests to get some iron tools as a reward or to find tools in the POIs. After that I did base building most of the time and fended off the blood moon horde and suddenly I had a lot of ferals and radioactive zombies in the POIs. If that's what you call grinding then there's something wrong with the system.

 

Also, your last argument is about first A17 iteration, since that time exp values were tweaked and they will keep getting tweaked, so if first A17 iteration spawned the discussion, that means current A17 iteration should put it down.

 

Spam crafting is no longer possible since Alpha 16 at the latest and yet it still appears as an argument. Why should the discussion about LBD be different ?

 

Killing Zs is fastest exp, but doing literally anything else is still fast exp+plenty of resources on top, so as a builder you are STILL leveling up fast, but you now have to invest in defenses to protect yourself, just like combat focused build will struggle in building base and defenses for himself due to inefficiency of resource gathering.

 

I disagree. Since the POIs are stuffed with bags full of cobblestone and concrete, the one who is focused on fighting can easily build a base. If you're mainly engaged in melee combat, you won't have any problems collecting resources because the perks you need are under strength.

[Grue]

This discussion feels pointless at this point.

I don't see one side convincing the other.

I see benefits to both systems, I just think they cater to different styles of gamers.

I will see what the future holds but I've had plenty of fun already, so no regrets.

 

Not everything has to be a dichotomy, there is this long forgotten concept called compromise, that helps people work together and be happy with the result, often both sides are more happy with the result than if one or the other had gotten their way completely.

 

It should not be all one way or all the other way.

It is more a matter of finding a good balance on the spectrum between between full LBD and full perk points.

 

In this case, a balanced hybrid approach would be the way to go.

 

To be clear A16.4 was already a hybrid approach, it has LBD and Perks and it worked just find. All it needed was some balancing and they could add in the new perk trees at the appropriate spots.

[Grue]

You are so good at naming fallacies. I bet you can name the one you committed here. It helps you to feel strong in your position to view every single person who doesn't hold with your own preferences as "fanboys" and "fluffers" with no critical thinking skills. But what it really does is reveal your own faulty thought processes. You should keep such sentiments to yourself for the sake of credibility.

 

It is not an attack on your character Roland, I am just saying that since you love and support anything they put in front of you, your opinion no longer matters because you are equally happy regardless of the outcome.

 

Mind you, it is not me invalidating your opinion, you are doing this to yourself by choosing to be stubbornly indifferent to the quality and features of the game.

Now, I do not know if that is because of your semi-official role as a PR/Community manager and you feel the need to toe the company line, or if you legit do not care what features go into the game. It honestly does not matter because the outcome is the same.

 

 

It is like ordering a pizza. We all agree we are having pizza (a zombie game), we all pitched in the same amount of money.

 

If I like supreme pizza, but one of the people at the party hates mushrooms we can still order a supreme sans mushroom.

Compromise, both are happy.

 

If one person must have pepperoni and another must not have pepperoni, you are looking at a half-and-half pizza solution.

Compromise, both are happy.

 

If someone wants pineapple, anchovy, and jalapeno, that is great-- you be you man, but you will need to wait for mod support.

 

But if you will eat literally anything at all on your pizza and shout down anyone who dares say it is not the best damn pizza ever, then with all due respect, scoot to the side and let people who actually have an opinion of their own select the toppings.

[Morloc]

But if you will eat literally anything at all on your pizza and shout down anyone who dares say it is not the best damn pizza ever, then with all due respect, scoot to the side and let people who actually have an opinion of their own select the toppings.

 

Did it occur to you and your false argument fallacy that a third faction may exist?...one which genuinely has their own opinion AND likes TPF's current course? Perhaps you'e "the man" here, and should wait for the mods.

 

 

-Morloc

[Roland]

It is not an attack on your character Roland, I am just saying that since you love and support anything they put in front of you, your opinion no longer matters because you are equally happy regardless of the outcome.

 

Mind you, it is not me invalidating your opinion, you are doing this to yourself by choosing to be stubbornly indifferent to the quality and features of the game.

Now, I do not know if that is because of your semi-official role as a PR/Community manager and you feel the need to toe the company line, or if you legit do not care what features go into the game. It honestly does not matter because the outcome is the same.

 

 

It is like ordering a pizza. We all agree we are having pizza (a zombie game), we all pitched in the same amount of money.

 

If I like supreme pizza, but one of the people at the party hates mushrooms we can still order a supreme sans mushroom.

Compromise, both are happy.

 

If one person must have pepperoni and another must not have pepperoni, you are looking at a half-and-half pizza solution.

Compromise, both are happy.

 

If someone wants pineapple, anchovy, and jalapeno, that is great-- you be you man, but you will need to wait for mod support.

 

But if you will eat literally anything at all on your pizza and shout down anyone who dares say it is not the best damn pizza ever, then with all due respect, scoot to the side and let people who actually have an opinion of their own select the toppings.

 

Then there's you at the party. Red-faced and screaming at the people who chose pizza you don't personally like that they must be shills of the pizza restaurant for liking the pizza they do or must have damaged taste buds or must simply be retarded because in your world there is no concept that the rest of the world is not you.

 

If this was a pizza party I think you'd be tossed out and uninvited for such boorish behavior.

 

If you continue to insult people with name calling and ascribing motives to their preferences that denote a lack of intelligent thought or an abundance of TFP ass kissing, I'll be the one doing the tossing.

 

Let me be clear because you seem to me to be someone who can't differentiate between being told to not criticize and to not be disrespectful. I have no problem with you championing the preferences you feel are important and outlining the weaknesses in the current design as you see it. But as soon as you cross the line into making it personal against other members of the community or the developers themselves you will be gone from here left to dishonestly claim on your downgraded review about how TFP can't take criticism and so you were banned by their malicious moderators....

[Roland]

I am just saying that since you love and support anything they put in front of you...

 

Despite your assumption of me to be a one-dimensional idiot, I will say to other readers that I don't love and support anything they put in front of me. I have been against their implementations of experience points from the start. I have posted many times in the past from A12 to now while it was implemented that "learn by doing" is like adding gasoline to a fire. The game for so long had nothing to do with gaining experience and then when it was added that's what it became ALL about for many people in the community and then as they added in the accelerant of LBD it got even worse.

 

LBD is like crack for those who are susceptible to focusing on experience gain and I don't like how it comes to overshadow the organic and thematic aspects of surviving in a zombie apocalypse game to the point that actions are taken primarily to increase a bar. I made these arguments long before A17 was set before me.

 

I have even learned how to mod to the point that with some help with SDX I have created a mod that gets rid of experience points and returns the game to what I believe are its roots.

[Grue]

Did it occur to you and your false argument fallacy that a third faction may exist?...one which genuinely has their own opinion AND likes TPF's current course? Perhaps you'e "the man" here, and should wait for the mods.

 

 

-Morloc

 

Then why not a hybrid system instead of pure perk?

Half-and-half pizza, both groups are happy.

[SylenThunder]

They are obviously in a rush to reach Gold and willing to cut major corners and skimp (technical debt) so they can say, "Hey look guys, it took a while, but we finally made it!" so they can cash in on the Summer/Winter steam sales to draw in a new batch of suckers with the shiny "Gold Edition".

 

Madmole just said this week that Gold release is still a year out. That has got to be the slowest "rush" I've ever heard of.

LOL remember the days back in a13 or a14 when he said a15 would probably be the last Alpha. I'm certainly glad they didn't stop there.

 

IMHO, LBD is only for min/maxers and does not contribute to solid gameplay mechanics. Firing 2-3 thousand arrows just to raise the skill one point was stupid.

[Roland]

LOL remember the days back in a13 or a14 when he said a15 would probably be the last Alpha. I'm certainly glad they didn't stop there.

 

IMHO, LBD is only for min/maxers and does not contribute to solid gameplay mechanics. Firing 2-3 thousand arrows just to raise the skill one point was stupid.

 

Yes...they've been "rushing" to Gold since A14....lol

[AtomicUs5000]

LBD is like crack for those who are susceptible to focusing on experience gain and I don't like how it comes to overshadow the organic and thematic aspects of surviving in a zombie apocalypse game to the point that actions are taken primarily to increase a bar.

 

Same can be said about a perk point system when the main source is XP. Why you picking on LBD?

Any game mechanic that becomes addictive like crack is exactly what game developers strive for... and then they put that little safety notice about taking periodic breaks when playing the game.

[Tete1805]

Indeed, accomplishment makes you release dopamine or something like that if I'm not mistaken.

It sure makes the journey enjoyable.

 

Grue, I feel like A16 was already a hybrid system but that it wasn't what MM/TFP envisioned.

MM has stated his choice at the moment, we'll see what the books collections bring to the table.

[Tete1805]

IMHO, LBD is only for min/maxers and does not contribute to solid gameplay mechanics. Firing 2-3 thousand arrows just to raise the skill one point was stupid.

 

Please, enough with this argument.

It's not because it's a possibility that everybody does it.

Just like cheesing the AI in A17.