LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[RipClaw]

It was an inefficient way to level something that wasn't worth leveling (from 0-100 armor there was nearly no difference in armor when you use the time actually finding ressources to craft a better armor or buy it.

 

I either bought or found all of my armor. Most of it came from military bases. They were as common on my map as the waterworks in A17.

[Razorpony]

Why should one be forced to hump a cactus or to spam bandages? I never did that and had no disadvantages in the game. This must be some kind of hidden achievement that I didn't know about and that everyone wants to have.

 

Because min/maxers get thrown into the mix and think everything has to be 100% as quickly as possible. Hence humping cactuses. I'm of the opinion that active skills (mining, shooting, etc) were fine as LBD. Passive skills (armor and the like) should have been handled as functions of other skills. Example Light Armor Skill = (Speed + Agility)/2 Heavy Armor Skill = (Strength + Agility)/2. But that's just me. There's a million ways it could have been fixed but they chose to flip the Monopoly board and get rid of the whole thing.

[HungryZombie]

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates/page21

 

72.21% is definatly the majority. It is more than 2/3rds.

And yes casual players may not mind this change (because they dont care about the game, because they never played with lbd or whyever) but those dont care about most changes. The ones who do care are the important ones.

60% positive on steam is like... abysmal! And that is for 17.2 so no "bugs and premature rants" excuses

 

It's the majority of those who decided to respond to that poll, which is a subset of people who even bother to read the forums. You can't base it as proof of anything.

[Viktoriusiii]

It's the majority of those who decided to respond to that poll, which is a subset of people who even bother to read the forums. You can't base it as proof of anything.

 

It is a subset yes. It is the acively involved subset of the game and their players.

By your standarts I could dismiss any statistic brought up. "not enough" "not the right demographic" "just a subset and not representative".

 

It is the only statistic we have and it can be swayed in both directions depending on how you look at it.

But just because you dislike what it actually says doesnt mean it is not evidence.

 

Evidence for playerfeedback and opinions is hard to come by. So having one is incredibly valuable. And it beeing dismissed just because you dislike what it says is sad.

You can doubt it, sure. But it is evidence. If you dislike it, produce better evidence.

[SilverWolf]

Hm.. Can't tell if I ever missed LBD now when I think of it. It had it's own share or fun, but it was nowhere near perfect.

I think it was more of a shock because of drastic changes introduced in A17 instead of expanding A16 gameplay that made me a bit dissapointed, but honestly, after hearing few ideas on the forums for gameplay without any xp..

Well, few gates in form of workstations(ingredients for them are gated through looting/scavenging), books, one-time schematics and other small changes, and now it's enjoying again, to explore, build and have fun at least, can't fix homing AI.. yet.

[KingSlayerGM]

The A18 thread is for discussion of A18 features. Madmole repeated himself several times that LBD would not be an A18 feature and asked for people to take the topic elsewhere. The same dozen people chose to ignore him and continue to to bring it up. All of the opinions can still be read and General Discussions isn't some dark corner of the forums.

 

Sorry for my rudeness, but this justification is bull♥♥♥♥.

 

The dev diary is filled with posts unrelated to A18's development, but most are not targeted and are not moved to other threads. From time to time, when it is convenient to mods or devs, post get moved elsewhere. Let's face it, MM wanted to get rid of them because he only goes to the dev diary, so he doesn't want to read posts that express opinions contrary to his own every single day. Also I suspect he isn't very happy that those opinions are spread across the community and promoted in the main thread.

 

One more point: the dev diary is the core of this forum and the first place that new comers visit. It's true, general discussion is not a dark corner, but it is not as important. And keep in mind that MM suggested to move the discussion to the mod section, which is even less visited.

[Ornias]

I miss the LBD days. I am playing Roland's Oxp mod now, and truthfully enjoying the game again for the 1st time since A17 dropped.

[Qyzer]

...

 

If I had my way TFP would, at the very least since they said they won't bring it back, add a toggle to the different attributes / perks in the xml files for a check where the modding community could set the value to "false" and as such bring the LBD system back to life without the need for dll hacks to do it.

 

That way TFP can continue to build and balance the system they want while at the same time retain the code in the dll for the LBD system so that the game could still be be EAC safe. The modders who decide to do this would of course have to re-balance the game though, not a small task.

 

...]

 

Agreed, the surprising thing to me was them taking the option completely out (without weird workarounds anyway). I know that it's extra code that could potentially break, but a "modders beware" would have sufficed for me.

 

Because min/maxers get thrown into the mix and think everything has to be 100% as quickly as possible. Hence humping cactuses. I'm of the opinion that active skills (mining, shooting, etc) were fine as LBD. Passive skills (armor and the like) should have been handled as functions of other skills. Example Light Armor Skill = (Speed + Agility)/2 Heavy Armor Skill = (Strength + Agility)/2. But that's just me. There's a million ways it could have been fixed but they chose to flip the Monopoly board and get rid of the whole thing.

 

I'm hoping they will eventually realize that they can't solve unsolvable game design problems no matter how many alphas they attempt and finally settle on more than one way to do it in the kind of hybrid system that lets the extreme cases abuse it and provides a couple of ways to do things.

 

Personally, I'd like:

- learn by doing for active skills (but you can spend points if you want, but no skill level gating)

- equipment/crafting of better gear for more passive stuff (better medkits or armor not a skill for them (I've worn armor, while there is skill in using it, the point is to NOT get hit with or without armor))

- Tech skills can be bought with points and/or leveled by finding books or the like, with some option to start with a few important ones to you.

- some kind of incentive rather than a penalty for not dying (literally turn the death penalty to the default and make it's opposite a survival bonus, exactly like Blizzard did with rest in World of Warcraft, exact same system, different presentation, people went from hating it to loving it.

 

Basically I want A16 for active skills, the skills and abilities of 17(1?), and something more like what Roland has built.

[Roland]

Sorry for my rudeness, but this justification is bull♥♥♥♥.

 

The dev diary is filled with posts unrelated to A18's development, but most are not targeted and are not moved to other threads. From time to time, when it is convenient to mods or devs, post get moved elsewhere. Let's face it, MM wanted to get rid of them because he only goes to the dev diary, so he doesn't want to read posts that express opinions contrary to his own every single day. Also I suspect he isn't very happy that those opinions are spread across the community and promoted in the main thread.

 

One more point: the dev diary is the core of this forum and the first place that new comers visit. It's true, general discussion is not a dark corner, but it is not as important. And keep in mind that MM suggested to move the discussion to the mod section, which is even less visited.

 

I forgive your rudeness. Here’s the most important point. The dev diary is the direct interface between player and developers and it is provided by Madmole on his own terms.

 

He allowed LBD talk to go on for many pages worth of the thread. You can stop pretending like he never considered it or never allowed it to be seen. I know that makes your stance seem more dramatic to you but it isn’t accurate.

 

More rude than you saying bull♥♥♥♥ is for you and others to not take his polite rejection of the idea in good grace but to continue to go to his thread where he wishes to talk about A18 topics with fans and to try and derail the thread with further arguments. Not only is it rude but it has got to be the most stupid strategy to trying to get your way that you could use. You are not a child, Madmole isn’t your permissive mother, the thread is not a grocery store checkout line, and LBD isn’t a chocolate bar that you might be able to get if just keep wailing, “I want it!!!!”

 

Moderator action is only ever necessary when someone can’t understand the bad behavior they are exhibiting which is why I stepped in to stop the embarrassing display.

 

Now, you and others are welcome to continue to discuss LBD because it is an interesting game design and here in general discussion it is appropriate to discuss game design that we believe could or should apply to 7 Days.

[Katitof]

Why should one be forced to hump a cactus or to spam bandages? I never did that and had no disadvantages in the game. This must be some kind of hidden achievement that I didn't know about and that everyone wants to have.

 

No, you didn't, but you also had no advantage coming from these activities(aka better armor values and stronger healing items in that example).

 

Right now you can do whatever you like and still benefit from better armor and stronger heals if you spec for it, without wasting tremendous amount of time and resources just for one skill, doing activity that is the essence of mindless grind.

[AtomicUs5000]

The A18 thread is for discussion of A18 features. Madmole repeated himself several times that LBD would not be an A18 feature and asked for people to take the topic elsewhere. The same dozen people chose to ignore him and continue to to bring it up. All of the opinions can still be read and General Discussions isn't some dark corner of the forums.

Let's just recognize that it may have actually been 11 people, and you. You were chiming in as well as the others. If I recall, what really triggered it was the LBD is DEAD post.

[Roland]

Let's just recognize that it may have actually been 11 people, and you. You were chiming in as well as the others. If I recall, what really triggered it was the LBD is DEAD post.

 

No.

 

I went back as far as the LBD is DEAD post it is true but what triggered it was me realizing after I posted about it and imagining the discomfort I might feel on Monday when Madmole returns to find even more pages of LBD talk (and with my participation) after he had already asked for it to cease and after I had already stated once weeks ago already that further discussion of it needed to be taken elsewhere. I got caught up in the discussion because it is interesting and I enjoy thinking about design in games but it was not appropriate for that thread after so many requests from Madmole to be done with it.

 

I look forward to getting back to a discussion of it once everyone has finally vented enough about the moderator action to enforce what Madmole asked for but which people ignored.

[AtomicUs5000]

I got caught up in the discussion because it is interesting and I enjoy thinking about design in games but it was not appropriate for that thread after so many requests from Madmole to be done with it..

 

Yeah, we all did. There was just a lot of finger-pointing.

[FA_Q2]

...so it can be ignored.

 

Yes. They have openly told you LBD is not coming back. When you tell someone that you are not going to do something, do you actively listen the next 500 times that they continue to tell you that you should?

 

No, no one does that.

[FA_Q2]

I know LBD won't be coming back. This decision has been made and we have to come to terms with it. What bothers me in the discussion is that LBD opponents practically always use the same arguments that I can not understand.

 

A popular argument is that you could only level the armor by hugging a cactus for hours. I never did that. My armor was simply leveled by taking hits in melee combat. In the end the armor wasn't on 100% but that didn't bother me. I don't have to get 100% everywhere.

 

Or the other argument is that you leveled the shotgun by shooting at stones while mining. I had hardly any level in the shotgun because I just didn't use it. Why should I level it if I never use it anyway ?

 

On the other hand, I had everything at 100% which I did a lot of. I built a lot, dug a lot and used the baton and the crossbow as my primary weapons. Also with the sniper rifle I had 100% because I used it with every blood moon horde.

 

I never understood why someone thinks they have to have 100% everywhere ? Why should someone level something he never uses anyway ?

 

One problem you had with the LBD system used in Alpha 16 was that some of the perks were linked together. For example you could only build the chemistry station if you reached a certain level in other perks. This had nothing to do with the way how LBD works. It was a decision of the developers and those were the level gates of Alpha 16.

 

What I find interesting about the first few points here is that if this is truly the way you were playing then there should be no noticeable difference between 16 and 17 - at least after balance passes. Why stand on the LBD soapbox if your claims that LBD did not motivate you to change your behavior. In the new system, you can do exactly as you did before.

[AtomicUs5000]

Anyway... carrying on...

 

I see that people keep using the bad side of LBD as arguments for having perks only, and people keep using the bad side of perks-only as arguments for having LBD.

It might be more useful to pull the best of both and perhaps come up with some ideas of a system that is the best of both.

 

I don't think this topic is titled in a way to encourage that kind of discussion. It will continue being just the same arguments going back and forth.

[KingSlayerGM]

The dev diary is the direct interface between player and developers and it is provided by Madmole on his own terms.

Of course, and the fact we are here, proves it plainly. But the reason you are presenting for this change, isn't accurate. The discussion was moved not because it wasn't related to A18, plenty of posts aren't, but because MM got fed up.

 

He allowed LBD talk to go on for many pages worth of the thread. You can stop pretending like he never considered it or never allowed it to be seen.

I didn't write, nor pretended what you are saying I'm pretending. I said I suspect he isn't happy about it.

 

More rude than you saying bull♥♥♥♥ is for you and others to not take his polite rejection of the idea in good grace but to continue to go to his thread where he wishes to talk about A18 topics with fans and to try and derail the thread with further arguments.

LoL, you really got the wrong guy here. I didn't write a single post about LBD in the dev diary.

 

Not only is it rude but it has got to be the most stupid strategy to trying to get your way that you could use. You are not a child, Madmole isn’t your permissive mother, the thread is not a grocery store checkout line, and LBD isn’t a chocolate bar that you might be able to get if just keep wailing, “I want it!!!!”

Except I didn't ask for the chocolate bar. Also worth pointing out I saw polite posts stating interesting points about LBD, nothing comparable to a child screaming, but I might be wrong, since I don't read everything.

 

Moderator action is ever necessary when someone can’t understand the bad behavior they are exhibiting which is why I stepped in to stop the embarrassing display.

No embarrassment at all in that discussion.

[OzHawkeye]

Yes, never mind the low rating - their updates are not modular, many different changes are being made at the same time so it's hard to discern the main causes.

 

But the poll is an actual piece of data that indicates the popularity of LBD, right? And yes, TFP shouldn't cave in to everything the community says - that would be terrible for any game. I just personally wish I had seen a single convincing reason supporting that decision, but instead I see reasons such as......which, forgive me but, could even be refuted convincingly by a brick wall.

 

 

 

Yes, but the one you quoted did base his claim on a piece of data. Shouldn't you have to discredit that, before discrediting his claim?

 

As Roland has pointed out, it was a poll on these forums, a subset of the users on these forums that bothered to respond to the poll, which is itself a subset of all owners of the game (the poll didn't get two and a half million responses after all).

 

When LBD was there to be argued, I was happy to argue for it, but, on the basis of my own personal preferences, not some imagined (accurate or not is moot) majority stance.

 

Now that LBD is gone, and seems never to come back, well, I have to accept I've lost the argument and it's time to move on.

[FA_Q2]

What annoys me is that it is presented like one can't treat damage sources in code differently. God knows why you could level it up with hugging a cactus in the first place!

 

 

 

Huh, didn't know that. Ignoring bullet economy etc, the same thing applies as the above example. As if one can't check without any performance loss what the player is hitting.

 

That's why I can't resist replying in favor of the LBD everytime I see these kinds of arguments, they absolutely trigger me, it's like they are used to be done with the matter quickly instead of real/legit reasons

 

It is equally annoying to those if us that have made that statement have the LBD crowd take this as some sort of narrow and literal statement about why they did not like LBD. That statement is an example of the real problem with LBD - to level a stat you MUST do a set of activities that most of which will not be fun. It is not a matter of hugging cacti that is the problem, the problem is that I MUST get hit to progress my character. That is counter productive and not fun. There is NO WAY to level most skills in a fun manner.

 

At the end of the day I think it breaks down to people that enjoy simply developing their character. Just like you may enjoy base building, looting or any other such aspect of the game, character development is a major part of why some people play. That development is abysmally boring with a LBD system that will require you to do stupid ♥♥♥♥ after you have maxed the relevant perks you use the most often. Beth games have the same problem.

 

 

What do you do when you are a master user of one weapon but want to very your gameplay and try out some new methods? LBD - your screwed - you are not going to make up for the last 100 hours beating on ♥♥♥♥ with another weapon. Common pool xp - that play option is now open to you.

 

Whatever you may think about LBD, MM is flatly correct in stating that it is limiting. Most of the current complaints about the current leveling system are based around balance. The problem right now is not common pool - it is that zed farming is to efficient on the early game and mining is to efficient in the late game. That is why I actually prefer Rolland's method as players are freed up from ANY motivation around XP other than the core aspect - survival.

[FA_Q2]

2nd one i get that. It was only there to show that it is a considerable amount of active players.

Peak concurrent players yesterday: 11,551

so even if we say that there is double that over the course of the month and all are active and valid, it is still 500 out of 20000

which is a samplesize big enough to draw conclusions from.

 

The first part is completely wrong though.

Because I was counting in percentage not in numbers.

72%

so 382 out of 529

 

It may be enough for a sample - if that was what the poll did but it does not. This is why internet polls are rather meaningless in any real sense - there is no control on the sample making utterly invalid. Do you honestly think that the posters here represent anything even remotely close to a sample of the average player?

[FA_Q2]

No.

 

I went back as far as the LBD is DEAD post it is true but what triggered it was me realizing after I posted about it and imagining the discomfort I might feel on Monday when Madmole returns to find even more pages of LBD talk (and with my participation) after he had already asked for it to cease and after I had already stated once weeks ago already that further discussion of it needed to be taken elsewhere. I got caught up in the discussion because it is interesting and I enjoy thinking about design in games but it was not appropriate for that thread after so many requests from Madmole to be done with it.

 

I look forward to getting back to a discussion of it once everyone has finally vented enough about the moderator action to enforce what Madmole asked for but which people ignored.

 

Sorry Roland

[xXBadDreamXx]

The skills you needed to grind that weren't fun like hugging cactuses to raise armor skill or medicine skill by spamming painkillers , could've easily just been made into perks and that would've resolved the issue entirely. It's stated that this current system was introduced to keep people from having to grind boring skills ,yet I feel that killing poorly made zombies ,the most boring part of this game so it ruined the game for me entirely.

I can't progress without doing the thing I enjoyed the least. Dont get me wrong ,I still enjoyed my fair share of zombie killing during the 7 day horde and the occasional wandering horde. Now I have to actively grind zombies to get better at everything and it gets boring FAST . At least before you had varied activities and if something bored you then you could move on to something else.

[Grue]

Funny how some people advocating for a change claim to be speaking for the majority, when having no objective basis for doing so.....

 

....and I say that as some who prefers LBD too. I just don't claim that my preference is anyone else's but my own.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates

 

I was not just pulling it out of my ass.

[OzHawkeye]

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates

 

I was not just pulling it out of my ass.

 

Which has 530 responses out of 2,500,000 game units sold (that's a response rate of 0.02%). Let's not pretend that it in any way allows those of us who support(ed) LBD to claim the "We speak for the Majority" tag.......

[Grue]

Are

you

serious

???

 

530 voices is "just an interest poll"? That is like about 1/10th of active players. The fact that this did nothing to change their mind (coupled with all the arguments on the forums) should be concerning.

 

The low rating is because the game is just less fun.

I said it like 10 times already. It has nearly no replayability, is stripped of its original charme and core features got changed for the worse.

All related to the perk system.

 

But I do grant you that a big chunk is also about beeing frustrated with tfps for continously ignoring fan feedback on important matters and doing their own thing. Which is a double edged sword.

 

 

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/251570/7_Days_to_Die/#app_reviews_hash

 

They all talk how the game has lost its charm and is just a simple xp grind. And it will stay this way with this perksystem. Because even the "xp by time" approach i just read about makes this game boring because you have to wait until you can level.

I am a quick player. Some ppl have a bow and a little hut when I have an ak best armor and 40k dukes. But with this approach I will be held back until I have played as much as that one guy who just started and doesnt know how to find ressources.

 

As soon as you make it "perk" or "point" bound, it will be tied to xp. And xp will be the main currency for progress. There is no way around it.

 

Thanks for reminding me to go downgrade my Steam review.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/id/DrGrue/recommended/251570

 

Which has 530 responses out of 2,500,000 game units sold (that's a response rate of 0.02%). Let's not pretend that it in any way allows those of us who support(ed) LBD to claim the "We speak for the Majority" tag.......

 

The vast majority of those copies are collecting digital dust, you do not need to talk to all of them.

The forum here is just about the best place you could possibly get a unbiased random sample of active users.

 

Go educate yourself on how survey samples work.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_sampling