LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[OzHawkeye]

Thanks for reminding me to go downgrade my Steam review.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/id/DrGrue/recommended/251570

 

 

 

The vast majority of those copies are collecting digital dust, the forum here is just about the best place you could possibly get a sample of active users.

 

Go educate yourself on how survey samples work.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_sampling

 

Perhaps you should consider some of that education for yourself too?

 

So, you won't accept the 530 out of 2,500,000 is a valid comparison?

 

How about 530 out of the 131,000 forum accounts here? (Or a response rate of 0.4%).

 

Now, how many of those 530 responses are from people playing A17? Oh, that's right, we don't know, since the poll didn't include that option. How many of the 530 responses represent people still playing the game? Oh yeah, we don't know that either do we.

 

Let's also not ignore the fact that there were only 129 responses in favour of "I prefer a system that is "completely learn by doing", (that by the way, was how I voted) or the fact that the the poll included many voting options in favour of the current system, which also garnered many votes, or the fact that it was a multiple choice poll further muddying the results up, since you have absolutely no idea which options each of the 530 respondents ticked or the fact that none of the options on the poll even secured a majority of this tiny slices of responses in the first place!

 

Yet, despite all that, you're going to bang on about LBD being the majority preference and really sit there and tell me I need education on how to read a poll?

 

/facepalm

[Grue]

Perhaps you should consider some of that education for yourself too?

 

So, you won't accept the 530 out of 2,500,000 is a valid comparison?

 

How about 530 out of the 131,000 forum accounts here? (Or a response rate of 0.4%).

 

Now, how many of those 530 responses are from people playing A17? Oh, that's right, we don't know, since the poll didn't include that option. How many of the 530 responses represent people still playing the game? Oh yeah, we don't know that either do we.

 

Let's also not ignore the fact that there were only 129 responses in favour of "I prefer a system that is "completely learn by doing", (that by the way, was how I voted) or the fact that the the poll included many voting options in favour of the current system, which also garnered many votes, or the fact that it was a multiple choice poll further muddying the results up, since you have absolutely no idea which options each of the 530 respondents ticked or the fact that none of the options on the poll even secured a majority of this tiny slices of responses in the first place!

 

Yet, despite all that, you're going to bang on about LBD being the majority preference and really sit there and tell me I need education on how to read a poll?

 

/facepalm

 

Did I design the survey? No.

Go bitch at Roland about how he set it up.

Would I have designed the survey differently if it were me? Sure.

Is it perfect? No, but it is the best preference information we currently have.

 

You are the one who said "majority", not me.

[AtomicUs5000]

No, you can't compare the poll results to 2.5 million. The 2.5 million are mostly people from way beforehand.

It's like saying McDonald's sold to 10 Billion customers since it opened, and therefore the McGarbage sandwich they introduced this year is a great sandwich.

[OzHawkeye]

No, you can't compare the poll results to 2.5 million. The 2.5 million are mostly people from way beforehand.

It's like saying McDonald's sold to 10 Billion customers since it opened, and therefore the McGarbage sandwich they introduced this year is a great sandwich.

 

So what can you compare it to? That poll is an interesting data point, no more, no less. That's all it is.

 

Ultimately, it lends zero credence to arguments for or against LBD, as the poll had far too few respondents, zero information on who the respondents were, or a clear cut, mutually exclusive, option between the current system and LBD for there to be any meaningful conclusions drawn from it.

 

I hope some day, some clever modder can re-introduce LBD. I hope some day TFP will make it easier for such a re-introduction to occur, even though they are now definitely, almost certainly irreversibly, set on the perk system, but there is no meaningful data whatsoever for me to say that my own preferences are supported by anything other than a subset of the forums regular and active posters, which is itself an incredibly tiny subset of all the forum accounts, which is itself a very tiny subset of all the games sales.

 

If the best argument for LBD is that it has some sort of general player preference, then LBD is deader than Elvis.

[OzHawkeye]

Did I design the survey? No.

Go bitch at Roland about how he set it up.

Would I have designed the survey differently if it were me? Sure.

Is it perfect? No, but it is the best preference information we currently have.

 

You are the one who said "majority", not me.

 

Well, if you didn't say majority, then my apologies. Certainly others have claimed LBD has "majority" support, something which I think is a completely invalidated claim.

 

I still say though, that the poll was an interesting exercise (and by the way, that's all it was really designed to be I think), but as a source material for drawing any meaningful conclusions from, it's unrecoverably flawed.

[AtomicUs5000]

So what can you compare it to? That poll is an interesting data point, no more, no less. That's all it is.

 

Ultimately, it lends zero credence to arguments for or against LBD, as the poll had far too few respondents, zero information on who the respondents were, or a clear cut, mutually exclusive, options between the current system and LBD for their to be any meaningful conclusions drawn from it.

 

I hope some day, some clever modder can re-introduce LBD. I hope some day TFP will make it easier for such a re-introduction to occur, even though they are now definitely, almost certainly irreversibly, set on the perk system, but there is no meaningful data whatsoever for me to say that my own preferences are supported by anything other than a subset of the forums regular and active posters, which is itself a very tiny subset of all the forum accounts, which is itself a very tine subset of all the games sales.

 

If the best argument for LBD is that it has some sort of general player preference, then LBD is deader than Elvis.

 

The survey suggests that a Hybrid system is what the majority of active players in this forum wants. The same active players that feel strongly enough about this game to discuss it with others.

I am not a fan of LBD-only. Like I mentioned before in this pseudo-thread, I believe a Hybrid system is what we should be looking at and not going back and forth with weak arguments for LBD-only or Perks-only.

 

Also, like I said before, the way this thread is titled, and also the premise post that goes along with it, will only result in more people trying to either defend LBD or be against it... when neither of these should even be the focus here.

 

I would be careful with dismissing poll results, especially when they are started by moderators. Otherwise, you are saying the moment you post them, "Vote here for absolutely no reason whatsoever because it won't mean jack"

[RestInPieces]

As Roland has pointed out, it was a poll on these forums, a subset of the users on these forums that bothered to respond to the poll, which is itself a subset of all owners of the game (the poll didn't get two and a half million responses after all).

 

When LBD was there to be argued, I was happy to argue for it, but, on the basis of my own personal preferences, not some imagined (accurate or not is moot) majority stance.

 

Now that LBD is gone, and seems never to come back, well, I have to accept I've lost the argument and it's time to move on.

 

Well yes, any poll is done on a subset of a population, from which a subset replies etc. And there is a chance that it might not even be accurate but it is something over nothing (nothing being random speculations), so it's not exactly imaginary. But ok, the majority argument is more of an empty argument because the majority might as well be full of bs.

 

As for moving on, from my experience, what is not really popular dies out eventually. At any case there is no harm in discussing about it in the proper sections. Imagine if the same was said for the "underground safety" debate over the years (yes MM had expressed a vague intention to do something about it but there were no news for a long time). Who knows, perhaps someday in the future TFP decide to add some LBD elements, perhaps not.

 

It is equally annoying to those if us that have made that statement have the LBD crowd take this as some sort of narrow and literal statement about why they did not like LBD. That statement is an example of the real problem with LBD - to level a stat you MUST do a set of activities that most of which will not be fun. It is not a matter of hugging cacti that is the problem, the problem is that I MUST get hit to progress my character. That is counter productive and not fun. There is NO WAY to level most skills in a fun manner.

 

Well if the one who wrote this doesn't like it to be taken literally, then perhaps they could try being literal.

 

Seriously though, the hugging cacti example is an example of using a static controllable damage source which doesn't provide any risk to level up a skill. If it's in some way metaphorical, what are you trying to compare it with? Being hit by a zombie which can infect you, make you bleed and stun you, especially with the current system of lowered max health?

 

And how is the example of raising your skill by shooting rocks with a shotgun metaphorical or refers to something broader? If raising your skill was possible only by shooting zombies, how would that be different from what we have now? On the contrary, players would rarely waste bullets on a default setting to just raise a weapon skill, but you can see how lucrative that is with the common pool XP being as valuable as it is.

 

My point is that if some stupid LBD oversights didn't exist, those repeating, dull, grindy activities would not be possible or beneficial to the player. So the player would just play the game instead of trying to raise some skill in a boring annoying way. And there were still some points you could invest yourself wherever you wanted.

 

Common XP pool combined with gated perk recipes was the main reason a lot of people viewed A17 as a grind. I am not saying that it can't be salvaged - it can, like the LBD could. But they have to, imo, balance activity XP gain strictly by time spent. For example - zombies are always, infinitely, everywhere, readily available - they cost minimum time. Mining XP also shouldn't scale with block damage. And so on.

 

What do you do when you are a master user of one weapon but want to very your gameplay and try out some new methods? LBD - your screwed - you are not going to make up for the last 100 hours beating on ♥♥♥♥ with another weapon. Common pool xp - that play option is now open to you.

 

Nothing stops you from trying out different weapons. You are only screwed if you want to be a master of the other weapon right away. You are free to use the other weapon as you see fit and master it in the process.

 

Whatever you may think about LBD, MM is flatly correct in stating that it is limiting.

In some sense, your character not being able to shoot lazers out of their eyes is limiting too, but in a good way. What I am trying to say is that this kind of limitation, like the example of not being able to master a weapon without using it, is actually enjoyable to some people.

 

Most of the current complaints about the current leveling system are based around balance. The problem right now is not common pool - it is that zed farming is to efficient on the early game and mining is to efficient in the late game. That is why I actually prefer Rolland's method as players are freed up from ANY motivation around XP other than the core aspect - survival.

 

Of course, I never said "this system is doomed beyond redemption, it sucks, bring LBD back". Was always discussing even before A17 was released, about having to balance xp sources, making rpg elements complimentary instead of "a goal" with actions having to depend on survival needs and said the exact thing you say about zombies and mining over 100 times. So I am looking forward to this too. Would be great if MM expressed the same sentiment, but from his recent posts I haven't seen any intention of him doing that. Edit: To clarify he did say that they will balance XP sources more in A18 but he also said this about the zombies, so I am not really sure what they are going to do.

 

PS: I like tRolands concept too.

[Grue]

It severely limits player choice. Do anything fun get xp, buy what you want with that xp, not be locked into repetitive grindy actions that force you to do stupid things like get stabbed to improve your armor ability.

 

You keep using that as an example, but the "armor" skill, which arguably should not have been a skill in the first place, could have been easily removed to resolve that flaw.

 

It would have taken far less work to fix what you had than to rip out LBD and replace it with the generic xp/perk system introduced in A17.

 

Now you are stuck with A17 and using the sunk cost fallacy to justify telling everyone to just enjoy the sour taste in their mouth because you do not want to go back and revisit the issue.

 

Sure you will always have sycophant fluffers out there who will uncritically lap up anything you put out, and tell you it is awesome.

 

But if you are setting the bar based on pleasing the lowest common denominator you are going to end up with a generic, uninspired game.

[OzHawkeye]

The survey suggests that a Hybrid system is what the majority of active players in this forum wants. The same active players that feel strongly enough about this game to discuss it with others.

I am not a fan of LBD-only. Like I mentioned before in this pseudo-thread, I believe a Hybrid system is what we should be looking at and not going back and forth with weak arguments for LBD-only or Perks-only.

 

Also, like I said before, the way this thread is titled, and also the premise post that goes along with it, will only result in more people trying to either defend LBD or be against it... when neither of these should even be the focus here.

 

I would be careful with dismissing poll results, especially when they are started by moderators. Otherwise, you are saying the moment you post them, "Vote here for absolutely no reason whatsoever because it won't mean jack"

 

530 respondents. A majority would be (530/2)+1, or 266. The most popular response got only 263 votes, and had nothing to do with LBD anyway.

[Grue]

530 respondents. A majority would be (530/2)+1, or 266. The most popular response got only 263 votes, and had nothing to do with LBD anyway.

 

Either stop bitching about it, or go set up your own poll.

 

I will even help you do it.

[AtomicUs5000]

530 respondents. A majority would be (530/2)+1, or 266. The most popular response got only 263 votes, and had nothing to do with LBD anyway.

 

Yes it does, because it INCLUDES LBD

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates

 

32% like perks only

48% like hybrid

24% like LBD only

 

By going hybrid you get 48% approval, plus you are making the other categories at least partially approve. Let's say half of each would be disappointed but still ok with it. So add in 16% and 12%.

There should theoretically be somewhere around a 76% approval rating when going Hybrid.

.

 

LBD only: 127 votes, HYBRID (which includes LBD): 255 <- by the way this number has gone up the past couple of days.

127 + 255 = 382

382 > 266

[OzHawkeye]

Either stop bitching about it, or go set up your own poll.

 

I will even help you do it.

 

I'm not bitching about it. You're using it claim something that the poll simply doesn't support. Plain and simple. Or was it someone else who only two posts ago said "telling everyone to just enjoy the sour taste" and "pleasing the lowest common denominator"?

 

Stop implying that your position is somehow some privileged vantage point. Not everyone (your words) dislikes the new perk system and those that do are hardly the "lowest common denominator" (again, your words).

[OzHawkeye]

Yes it does, because it INCLUDES LBD

 

You cannot combine the votes for Hybrid and the votes for LBD only, without making an assumption that those voting for one would necessarily support the other (or, indeed, didn't skew the poll, deliberately or otherwise, by voting for both which the poll was perfectly happy to let them do).

 

The poll is basically useless, and making a new one with data determinant options would still be useless I suspect, because the response rate would be so low as to be statistically insignificant.

 

If there is any point in continuing to argue for LBD (and frankly, at this point, I doubt there is), it should be on the basis of what made LBD good, and what made TFP's prior implementation of it have some elements that weren't good and how they could have been fixed without dumping the entire system - and I do happen to think that the prior LBD was flawed but basically good, and could have been great if only the flaws had been addressed (such as needing to be hit to raise armor skill).

 

I just don't think that poll is worth anything by way of advancing any sort of LBD argument and moreover, I think it actually devalues any argument in favour of LBD when people cite that poll as evidence of its popularity.

[AtomicUs5000]

You cannot combine the votes for Hybrid and the votes for LBD only, without making an assumption that those voting for one would necessarily support the other (or, indeed, didn't skew the poll, deliberately or otherwise, by voting for both which the poll was perfectly happy to let them do).

 

I've assumed half of them would be ok with it. I think it's a fair assumption, being that I think that those who truly want LBD-only would be more than happy to see a compromise.

 

The poll is basically useless

 

Yes, you've made it clear that they all are.

 

 

If there is any point in continuing to argue for LBD (and frankly, at this point, I doubt there is), it should be on the basis of what made LBD good, and what made TFP's prior implementation of it have some elements that weren't good and how they could have been fixed without dumping the entire system - and I do happen to think that the prior LBD was flawed but basically good, and could have been great if only the flaws had been addressed (such as needing to be hit to raise armor skill).

 

Yes... yet again I will say that this should be the main focus here.

[OzHawkeye]

I've assumed half of them would be ok with it. I think it's a fair assumption, being that I think that those who truly want LBD-only would be more than happy to see a compromise.

 

 

 

Yes, you've made it clear that they all are.

 

 

 

 

Yes... yet again I will say that this should be the main focus here.

 

I suspect that quite a few people may have voted for both Hybrid and LBD-only options knowing that doing so would effectively be doubling their voting power - the mere fact that was possible renders it hopelessly tainted.

 

I've read your posts regarding LBD in this thread, and I do largely agree with them, LBD could have been a great system if the flaws were fixed.

 

Anyway, I think that arguments done and dusted, so I doubt I'll bother posting much about why I think LBD was better, but being the pedant I am I reserve the right to interject when someone claims that poll supports something it doesn't... hehe.

[Grue]

The survey suggests that a Hybrid system is what the majority of active players in this forum wants. The same active players that feel strongly enough about this game to discuss it with others.

I am not a fan of LBD-only. Like I mentioned before in this pseudo-thread, I believe a Hybrid system is what we should be looking at and not going back and forth with weak arguments for LBD-only or Perks-only.

 

Also, like I said before, the way this thread is titled, and also the premise post that goes along with it, will only result in more people trying to either defend LBD or be against it... when neither of these should even be the focus here.

 

I would be careful with dismissing poll results, especially when they are started by moderators. Otherwise, you are saying the moment you post them, "Vote here for absolutely no reason whatsoever because it won't mean jack"

 

Alright, lets hash out a hybrid system we could all be happy with.

 

At the very least we can hope one of the talented modders here can bolt something on to whatever they serve up with A18.

[AtomicUs5000]

Alright, lets hash out a hybrid system we could all be happy with.

 

At the very least we can hope one of the talented modders here can bolt something on to whatever they serve up with A18.

 

I am going to assume that the possibility will exist some day via modding in the least. Though, I am skeptical of this since you can't even request it in the only thread the devs are even looking at.

 

Maybe we can still sneak in one here and there if we can keep the moderators busy in here talking about their useless polls.

[Grue]

I am going to assume that the possibility will exist some day via modding in the least. Though, I am skeptical of this since you can't even request it in the only thread the devs are even looking at.

 

Maybe we can still sneak in one here and there if we can keep the moderators busy in here talking about their useless polls.

 

Ok, I will pull aggro here.

 

You go ask for mod support for the progression system.

[AtomicUs5000]

lol, sure give me the dangerous role.

[FA_Q2]

I am going to assume that the possibility will exist some day via modding in the least. Though, I am skeptical of this since you can't even request it in the only thread the devs are even looking at.

 

Maybe we can still sneak in one here and there if we can keep the moderators busy in here talking about their useless polls.

 

You cant request it because they have specifically stated they are not doing mod support until after gold. At that point, I am sure they will be open to requests about expanding mod support as that will be one of their main interests at that point.

[Grue]

You cant request it because they have specifically stated they are not doing mod support until after gold. At that point, I am sure they will be open to requests about expanding mod support as that will be one of their main interests at that point.

 

I appreciate the enthusiasm to try to wrap things up, but if they end up wrapping a turd and calling it a Christmas present.... no, thank you.

[FA_Q2]

Well if the one who wrote this doesn't like it to be taken literally, then perhaps they could try being literal.

How? List the 500 ways that you can take damage from a safe source every time this point is made or just use a simple example that everyone should understand?

 

You are being disingenuous here.

Seriously though, the hugging cacti example is an example of using a static controllable damage source which doesn't provide any risk to level up a skill. If it's in some way metaphorical, what are you trying to compare it with? Being hit by a zombie which can infect you, make you bleed and stun you, especially with the current system of lowered max health?

I can easily set up a situation where I get beat on relentlessly by a zed without real risk. Just use some basic heavy armor and get a crawler alone. Done.

 

That really does not matter though as the core problem is the game motivating a player to perform tasks that do not make any sense and do not provide a positive experience.

And how is the example of raising your skill by shooting rocks with a shotgun metaphorical or refers to something broader? If raising your skill was possible only by shooting zombies, how would that be different from what we have now? On the contrary, players would rarely waste bullets on a default setting to just raise a weapon skill, but you can see how lucrative that is with the common pool XP being as valuable as it is.

No I cant. You had better bet they are going to waste bullets leveling the skill in a LBD system - THEY HAVE TO. That is the core problem with LBD, you stink at first with your skills so if you ever want to get good enough to take on the big guys with that weapon you have to level it first. It does not make any real sense to go around shooting crawlers in a survival sense but in a LBD system it certainly does make sense from a progression standpoint. It is almost necessary.

 

This is actually one of the largest reasons that I really did not use guns in 16 - I did not want to wast the mats and therefore my weapon skills were never high enough to bother using them. If I wanted to use them wasting those mats would have been a requirement.

My point is that if some stupid LBD oversights didn't exist, those repeating, dull, grindy activities would not be possible or beneficial to the player. So the player would just play the game instead of trying to raise some skill in a boring annoying way. And there were still some points you could invest yourself wherever you wanted.

And my general point is that those sad situations are NOT oversights - they are intrinsic with any LBD system in a game like this. I have yet to see a single LBD system that does not include endless grinding of activities players would not otherwise do. That is a necessary evil with LBD progression systems. You can accept that as a reasonable price to pay for the other immersion aspects but you are not going to eliminate that problem.

 

That is not to say that common pool xp does not have its downsides as well. Aside from losing the immersive aspects it also takes some of the control the devs have in guiding the players activities leading to what many are complaining about with zed farming. There will always be that one activity that is most effective in farming and therefore some players will migrate there. I think that this is far easier to combat though with proper xp balancing and has a lot less overall impact on the players play style.

Common XP pool combined with gated perk recipes was the main reason a lot of people viewed A17 as a grind. I am not saying that it can't be salvaged - it can, like the LBD could. But they have to, imo, balance activity XP gain strictly by time spent. For example - zombies are always, infinitely, everywhere, readily available - they cost minimum time. Mining XP also shouldn't scale with block damage. And so on.

 

Nothing stops you from trying out different weapons. You are only screwed if you want to be a master of the other weapon right away. You are free to use the other weapon as you see fit and master it in the process.

Game progression does. You cant utilize a level one weapon in a game stage 600 world and have fun. So, no, you cant try out different weapon or play styles. Not effectively. In a LBD system, you need to restart if you really want to try out some new play styles. In a common pool xp world you can gain enough points in that alternative to make it effective in a more dangerous world or you can restart. I really like rounding out my character after I have mastered my main combat style. If I am lv 5 in heavy metal I do not want to be forced to start with level 1 in stay down just to mix it up with my character. I should be able to invest some points there when I am ready to.

In some sense, your character not being able to shoot lazers out of their eyes is limiting too, but in a good way. What I am trying to say is that this kind of limitation, like the example of not being able to master a weapon without using it, is actually enjoyable to some people.

No doubt it is enjoyable to some. I think that a common pool is far superior though for the above reasons. Some will always prefer an LBD system,

 

Of course, I never said "this system is doomed beyond redemption, it sucks, bring LBD back". Was always discussing even before A17 was released, about having to balance xp sources, making rpg elements complimentary instead of "a goal" with actions having to depend on survival needs and said the exact thing you say about zombies and mining over 100 times. So I am looking forward to this too. Would be great if MM expressed the same sentiment, but from his recent posts I haven't seen any intention of him doing that. Edit: To clarify he did say that they will balance XP sources more in A18 but he also said this about the zombies, so I am not really sure what they are going to do.

 

PS: I like tRolands concept too.

 

His statements there about zeds does not alarm me to much. He is correct that removing the gates will alleviate a LOT of the problem. I think the main issue is that most of us have some specific set of perks or abilities that they find intrinsic to their play. For instance, I like to build but abhor doing so before I have some iron tools. Stone tools are just so slow and boring. Inevitably, I find myself avoiding building and killing zeds instead before access to iron because of this. Without gating, we should be able to at least get the basic perks in what we want to do without farming xp. That will alleviate most of the problem out the gate when combined with breaking up intellect ans strength being so damn intrinsic to most play styles.

 

Unfortunately, I do not hold out hope that it really will ever be balanced to the point that players are not actively seeking out zeds. I just do not think that the dev team has that in their vision anymore. Zeds are not an obstacle but a resource and I think that we all have to get used to that idea no matter how much we may hate it.

 

But hey, Roland has fixed that for us and he just managed to fix the game stage issue with it as well. I will be using that mod from here on out more than likely.

[HungryZombie]

It is a subset yes. It is the acively involved subset of the game and their players.

By your standarts I could dismiss any statistic brought up. "not enough" "not the right demographic" "just a subset and not representative".

 

I think you're really off the mark on this. There are entire fields and millions of dollars devoted to surveys and polls. There are legit methods of getting accurate results from a survey. While nothing is 100% accurate they are pretty well accepted in buisiness, academia and government.

 

A forum poll is not one of them.

[FA_Q2]

I appreciate the enthusiasm to try to wrap things up, but if they end up wrapping a turd and calling it a Christmas present.... no, thank you.

 

That is a silly response to what I stated.

 

Mod support is not coming until after gold. It has nothing to do with wrapping up a turd. It has to do with not trying to add mod support to systems that are not final. Without knowing what is actually going to make it to the final cut it would be an awfully poor decision to devote dev time to mod support for those same systems.

[AtomicUs5000]

That is a silly response to what I stated.

 

Mod support is not coming until after gold. It has nothing to do with wrapping up a turd. It has to do with not trying to add mod support to systems that are not final. Without knowing what is actually going to make it to the final cut it would be an awfully poor decision to devote dev time to mod support for those same systems.

 

This can go around in circles. You need a system in place first in order to provide mod support for it. They won't provide mod support until the systems are done. The problem is they removed the possibility to mod it in. Waiting until they are done with the systems only results in not having the system in place for them to provide the mod support.