LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[Grue]

It makes me wonder what a game would be like if it had something like... you improve in that as you do it, but then it fades with non-usage. Would it make it at all interesting? I have no idea... never played a game like that. It would solve the grind issue when you know it's only temporary. For those in team MP, this could be the start of a specialization idea. If you are the wood cutter, you will indeed be the best at it because you would be the only one actually maintaining the skill at its peak. For all other players who do not cut wood as much as the wood cutter, they lose what they gain eventually.

Of course this does nothing for bringing the fun of buying perks. But no worry, you could still do that and they would be permanent and unaffected by time/non-usage.

 

I get what you mean, but for game design purposes, it seems excessively tedious. If I am going to work on something, I want it to stay up, not wear off after a while even if that is technically what would happen in real life.

[Grue]

I did not read the post in this thread, so disregard my post if that offends you. I don't really have a dog in the race since both types of skill increasing seem fine to me. As an example, I am not a real big combat player, but you can't avoid it altogether in 7D2D. The current system lets me still get xp for killing and use those perk points to level up in the things I actually like doing (crafting).

 

I have seen the argument that LBD is more realistic, I would have to disagree. I have been using a PC for the better part of 35 years. I can't type worth dog poo. Remove the letters from the keyboard and I can likely find "a" "s" and maybe "w" "e". And I have been "typing" for a living most of those 35 years. I don't have the knack for anything other than hunt and peck when trying to type. No amount of practice (LBD) has increased my skill at performing this task. You can put "bike riding", "Roller skating", "speaking language other than English", "spelling" and about 30 other things that people might get better at with practice onto my "not ever going to get any better at performing this"

 

Just because you have to chop wood ALOT to do anything early in the game doesn't mean you want your character to excel in wood cutting. Yeah, maybe not realistic but this is a fantasy game as well.

 

Have you ever taken a typing class or practiced any kind of touch typing other than "hunt and peck"?

Because if you only practiced hunt and peck, then you are only reinforcing hunt and peck.

 

Same thing with languages, have you taken classes? Gotten language software? Visited other countries to try to learn the language?

Or have you only practiced English?

 

Conversely, do you think that going and killing 400 zombies with your bare hands and/or a variety of weaponry should make you a better typist?

Will using a sniper rifle make you a better auto mechanic?

Should digging a hole help you learn to speak Dutch?

[AtomicUs5000]

I get what you mean, but for game design purposes, it seems excessively tedious. If I am going to work on something, I want it to stay up, not wear off after a while even if that is technically what would happen in real life.

 

True. But I thrive on punishment in this game as long as its meaningful. It's why I like the first few days the most. Can't get enough of that struggle.

Anyway, if it only affects maybe a max of say 15% of your total skills, including this, perks, and boosts, it shouldn't be that bothersome.

 

I dub this mechanic, "Focus"

[SylenThunder]

Personally, I like the system in Skyrim. You advance skill sets by using them, but have to use points you get leveling to unlock the bonuses.

The question is now to implement something like this without also allowing the grind-fest that can be abused by the min-maxers.

[Grue]

Personally, I like the system in Skyrim. You advance skill sets by using them, but have to use points you get leveling to unlock the bonuses.

The question is now to implement something like this without also allowing the grind-fest that can be abused by the min-maxers.

 

I suppose the way you balance it depends on which you are more worried about the grind-fest (too slow) or the abuse (too fast).

[Razorpony]

True. But I thrive on punishment in this game as long as its meaningful. It's why I like the first few days the most. Can't get enough of that struggle.

Anyway, if it only affects maybe a max of say 15% of your total skills, including this, perks, and boosts, it shouldn't be that bothersome.

 

I dub this mechanic, "Focus"

 

I enjoy the struggle so long as it can be eventually overcome. I don't want to spend weeks improving and gearing up only to still be struggling like it's day 1 all over again every time the magic gamestage says that I need to face glowing bullet sponges with GPS and ESP. I don't enjoy dynamic difficulty at all. I'd much prefer a map divided into areas of increasing difficulty the way Subnautica did it. You start out in an easy spot but if you want to build better bases and tools then you need to venture deeper and fight more dangerous mobs to get that advanced loot and resources. To me it seems to satisfy both sides as anyone could build in the forest to be safer or in the wasteland near a city if they want that constant struggle.

 

As far as leveling goes, I prefer a hybrid system if we're going to have XP at all. My main gripe with perk trees is that perks shouldn't (IMO) be straight up damage modifiers. Perks should be perks. Decapitation or limb crippling is a perk. 10% more damage is just lazy design. I want my weapon skill to determine things like damage and accuracy. Let the perk tree add unique traits that alter or add new mechanics and change the way you go about playing your character.

[AtomicUs5000]

Well, I suppose these days the term is used quite loosely, but really there was no min in the min/maxing. Everything LBD was capped at 100. By maxing something you never lost out on anything else. There was no reason to ignore another skill as a consequence and keep it at min. It was basically max everything. A few of the skills were ridiculous and asking for abuse. They were difficult to level up without grinding it in a cheesy way, while on top of it giving someone an advantage in PVP. Other skills were reasonable and usually maxed out not even trying... the running, the archery, the mining and cutting, probably a few others I can't think of right now. Point is, you simply maxed it all. The way the perks are, you simply max them all. No matter what, all players max them all and everybody ends up on the same level. Maybe at different moments while leveling up, they have different strengths and weaknesses, but this is short lived. There is only the illusion that the perks as they are now give you freedom. In either system, you will end up in the same place. Right now the only solution to this would be that you don't get enough points to max out everything. However, the way the perks are, this would only lead to the same combination of perks for every game, at least in single player.

Madmole says he fixed this problem for A18, and the books might provide enough derivatives in skills to ensure players are diverse.

These books are essentially an LBD shortcut for a hybrid system where the LBD part extends the main skills of the perks with little sub-skill abilities. Grind an entire list of activities, or grind the single activity of searching for books. It's no different... I just need to keep reminding myself that. Will it be any less boring? Not sure about that. Some LBD grinding that you dislike, some LBD grinding that you do like... or search forever and hope you like it because that's your only option. All an illusion.

[Viktoriusiii]

Well he did invite us to dive into the recent bad reviews and see for ourselves. Should be easy to check if he's right or delusional about the subject matter of the bad reviews. Without looking I'm willing to bet the lionshare is poor performance/visuals and horrible RWG.

 

I have always been one to argue that reviews count for alot. So I have taken a look every now and then.

And the reviews with most thumbs up are people who complain that the game has lost its charm and that A17 was a clear misstep as all they had to do was fix some things in A16.

And every 3rd-5th negative review mentioned something like stability and optimisation and obviously some ppl just spout hate. It IS the commentsection afterall.

 

 

I have shown this with links and quotes in the past but to no real effect.

If s1 wants to go through the comments on steam from the 28th of december to ~mid february, you will see that very clearly.

(after that a lot of new players join the mix who dont know what others are complaining about because they never played the "good" version.)

[Khulkhuum]

I would prefer to have many different skill trees that i could invest points into. Why? Diversity. Replayability.

 

From one standpoint i would love to be the biggest, mightiest warrior with all skills maxed out. Noone would be able to stand against my might, with enemies falling at my feet. From another, i focus only on the few of the multiple roads to take, which takes me to a skillset that complements how i want to play.

 

This is why i would like more things to be unlockable. Perhaps walk away from "skills" and simply focus on "perks" that unlock the possibility of unlocking more "perks"? Something like in Forager, where you can dedicate points and advance how you want, but still need to hit lower perks to get access to higher ones.

 

Or perhaps... Do a threeway?

1. Some skills are LBD only, increasing by small amounts damage and other stats for tools, weapons and such. Minor advances, small influence.

2. There are perks that can be bought using skillpoints received per level and these would influence the gameplay the most with new techniques increasing range, stealth, food usage, farming, gathering, etc.

3. Lots of recipes to gather and unlock new content to be crafted and smelted. Among these would be sets of block types for wood, bricks, metal, etc., various furniture, containers, chairs, tools (on various tiers), etc.

 

On the other hand, point #3 was most likely debated 100s of times, especially in view of making crafting more simple.

[Shin]

Madmole disagrees. Sales are up and bad reviews are butt-hurt veterans.

 

This is exactly what it is. I've said it before and I'm surprised it's not mentioned more here. Sure, average player count is down, but SALES ARE UP. Why cater for players already paid for the game? TFP is a company, they need to/wants to make money. So they started to look at what sells and decided to change the course of the game. All to maximize profit and sales. Doesnt matter what the original idea was when the money doesnt come in as needed. So adapt to the market and live another day. All comes down to survival..

 

Nothing wrong with that in my book. I've had my moneys worth and are getting very close to finally be able to move on. Surely had som separation issues but are coming to terms with a life without 7d2d in any shape or form.

 

I'll find a way to survive without it.

[hotpoon]

I have always been one to argue that reviews count for alot. So I have taken a look every now and then.

And the reviews with most thumbs up are people who complain that the game has lost its charm and that A17 was a clear misstep as all they had to do was fix some things in A16.

And every 3rd-5th negative review mentioned something like stability and optimisation and obviously some ppl just spout hate. It IS the commentsection afterall.

 

 

I have shown this with links and quotes in the past but to no real effect.

If s1 wants to go through the comments on steam from the 28th of december to ~mid february, you will see that very clearly.

(after that a lot of new players join the mix who dont know what others are complaining about because they never played the "good" version.)

 

I'm also an avid reader of reviews and basically concur. Once in a while there is a 'performance' gripe or a 'still in alpha' gripe, but by and large, most of the bad reviews are complaints about how A17 has ruined some aspect of the game. They pretty much all say the same things complained about here in the forum, and a lot of them rank high because lots of people indicated that they found those particular reviews helpful. The number of people that find a particular review helpful is as telling as the review itself I think.

[Ianua]

yes, have taken classes and tried typing games. It is not a skill my brain is wired for. As to your question about languages, it made me chuckle. My husband is a comparative philologist, he speaks 12 languages with fluency so I am exposed to them plus other obscure ones on a regular basis. He has also made an effort to teach me. I managed to tell the owners of the local Mexican resturant that I painted my "dirty pig" turquoise (having substituted the italian word for kitchen into the phrase). If your assertion were true about learning then everyone could become a concert pianist since you claim it is a matter of practice.

[OldManBrian]

Considering how long-lasting and beloved a title Skyrim is, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with LBD since that was a core mechanic.

 

Sure you can get people who "game" the system and grind for levels, but you get that with any system you make. In general as long as the LBD mechanics come from natural play everything works out. (Crafting was problematic in Skyrim because you just wouldn't normally craft many items over the course of the game so you *HAD* to grind things to level it. Swordfighting, sneaking, etc leveled naturally with usage however.)

 

I never really think about LBD grinding in a16.4 (I'm still playing it) and I just play the game and get small amounts of gratification from the little popups for skill gains. Armor is the single thing I can think of in a16 that's problematic in the same way crafting was in skyrim, you're leveling something based on a rare event (getting hit), but we just didn't bother with leveling it in my group. To me armor should level along with athletics based on how much armor you're wearing while moving and doing stuff. Is it gamable? Sure, but it's also natural enough that most people wouldn't bother with gaming it.

 

In a17 though, I actively thought about what I needed to grind to maximize my leveling. Why? Because there are so many things to spend XP on, I never felt like I had enough. LBD removes that thought process and just lets it occur naturally. Heck you could take a page from skyrim and have traders or unique NPC's be able to train you in a skill you rarely use for a fee. Afterall, money is an unlimited resource like time (LBD), whereas skill points are technically limited so it's a waste to use them on things that can be leveled with LBD.

 

I get what the devs are saying though, they want to give more flexibility to player on level up, just in practice with my group it hasn't been the case. If anything a17's system has nudged us into "optimized" playstyles rather than how we naturally play in a16.

[Viktoriusiii]

Considering how long-lasting and beloved a title Skyrim is, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with LBD since that was a core mechanic.

 

Sure you can get people who "game" the system and grind for levels, but you get that with any system you make.

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/8M1cj3Q

 

While you stand next to a cactus to level up you armor, the Z's get radiated.

 

While you shoot a stone with you shotgun, wasting ammo, the Z's get more radiated.

 

While go dig up dirt with the auger, the Z horde get bigger.

 

 

Bloodmoon:

 

50 radiated Z's and cops coming your way:

You with a 1x1 mote a stoneshovel and 100 armor with clotharmor and an empty shotgun:

 

*insert surprised pikatchu face*

[Morloc]

 

 

-Morloc (Murderboss Deathking)

[OldManBrian]

You guys have a point with all that?

 

I can't tell if you're saying the zombies get too powerful with LBD or what you're saying exactly. My group and I haven't had that experience at all if that's the case, but then again we're not grinding LBD we're just playing naturally like I said in my post. Or did you guys not read past the first couple of sentences and then just seize the opportunity to post a minimally relevant meme\comic?

 

Hey I like memes and comics too, I'm just not seeing how it relates to what I posted...

[HungryZombie]

Have you ever taken a typing class or practiced any kind of touch typing other than "hunt and peck"?

Because if you only practiced hunt and peck, then you are only reinforcing hunt and peck.

 

Same thing with languages, have you taken classes? Gotten language software? Visited other countries to try to learn the language?

Or have you only practiced English?

 

Conversely, do you think that going and killing 400 zombies with your bare hands and/or a variety of weaponry should make you a better typist?

Will using a sniper rifle make you a better auto mechanic?

Should digging a hole help you learn to speak Dutch?

 

I think I get what you mean and I can't disagree. On the other hand, I can also see it like this:

 

Let's say I go hunting deer. In that system I'd be hunting to make me a better hunter. When I go hunting I do more than just shoot deer. I have to use my stealth, I learn how to set camp, butcher the kill, use tools, drive vehicles over rough terrain, etc.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say the activity of Hunting improves my mechanic's skill since I will have to maintain my weapons, gear, vehicle and equipment.

[Viktoriusiii]

You guys have a point with all that?

 

I can't tell if you're saying the zombies get too powerful with LBD or what you're saying exactly. My group and I haven't had that experience at all if that's the case, but then again we're not grinding LBD we're just playing naturally like I said in my post. Or did you guys not read past the first couple of sentences and then just seize the opportunity to post a minimally relevant meme\comic?

 

Hey I like memes and comics too, I'm just not seeing how it relates to what I posted...

 

*preedit* I'm pro LBD

 

It was as a response to you bringing up that LBD would make people grind their abilities up.

 

And since everything was related to levels, if you got armor to lvl 100 on a cactus, you had a gamestage of like 50 with no equipment or a base.

 

LBD was balanced (in the "grind to become op way) because everything you leveled automaticially upped your level -> gamestage.

That was the "meaning" behind this comic

[OldManBrian]

*preedit* I'm pro LBD

 

It was as a response to you bringing up that LBD would make people grind their abilities up.

 

And since everything was related to levels, if you got armor to lvl 100 on a cactus, you had a gamestage of like 50 with no equipment or a base.

 

LBD was balanced (in the "grind to become op way) because everything you leveled automaticially upped your level -> gamestage.

That was the "meaning" behind this comic

 

Ah!

 

Didn't even think about that as a balancer since we've never really done it.

[Viktoriusiii]

Ah!

 

Didn't even think about that as a balancer since we've never really done it.

 

honestly? I don't think anybody ever did. Because it was impractical, costs massive amounts of ressources (bandages) and is way too slow.

Same with shotgun on stone and stuff like that.

But those are still the arguments used by anti LBD people so we have to assume some people did it.

[OldManBrian]

So what are the current limitations with modding in LBD? What isn't supported by server side XPATH modding?

 

Currently my group and I went back to a16.4 and are staying here until release probably. At which point I'll look at modding in all the stuff we liked from a16.4, which is most of it lol.

 

So far some dealbreakers for us that aren't moddable are the RWG map sizes and zombie AI, just wondering if I need to add LBD to the list.

[Viktoriusiii]

LBD is dead. End of discussion. Madmoles words.

Sometimes he says hes "going to die on that hill" (that perkpoints is somehow better than LBD even though 72% on the forums disagree)

other times he says "its not coming back"

 

so yeah. add it to the list. I will gladly be on a lookout for your mod once 7d2d hits gold

[Grue]

LBD is dead. End of discussion. Madmoles words.

Sometimes he says hes "going to die on that hill" (that perkpoints is somehow better than LBD even though 72% on the forums disagree)

other times he says "its not coming back"

 

so yeah. add it to the list. I will gladly be on a lookout for your mod once 7d2d hits gold

 

It is a shame to have to wait til gold to fix their mistakes with mods.

[ColdGate]

It is a shame to have to wait til gold to fix their mistakes with mods.

 

After playing A17, I look at vanilla 7dtd only as at engine, or framework, or platform for mods. Without mods its just demo version. And currently LBD present in Ravenhearst mod.

[OldManBrian]

I just mainly don't want to spend a ton of time modding just to have everything change and get broken with another experimental update.

 

Not to mention right now the localization file still isn't in XPATH so modding any text for anything is painful and time consuming.

 

 

I'm fine with modding it in, I agree with ColdGate that I see 7dtd as a type of engine for modding. I don't like most of the direction the game has gone in with a17+ and have stayed playing 16.4, but I'm good with that for now and am ok making it the game I like again at a future date with modding.

 

But at the same time that requires the devs to expose these things for modding so that we can do these things ourselves without resorting to dll hacks and whatnot. Otherwise my group and I are stuck in a16.4 and all it's limitations \ bugs.