Jump to content

LBD talk is RIGHT HERE


Roland

Recommended Posts

Funny how some people advocating for a change claim to be speaking for the majority, when having no objective basis for doing so.....

 

....and I say that as some who prefers LBD too. I just don't claim that my preference is anyone else's but my own.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates/page21

 

72.21% is definatly the majority. It is more than 2/3rds.

And yes casual players may not mind this change (because they dont care about the game, because they never played with lbd or whyever) but those dont care about most changes. The ones who do care are the important ones.

60% positive on steam is like... abysmal! And that is for 17.2 so no "bugs and premature rants" excuses ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates/page21

 

72.21% is definatly the majority. It is more than 2/3rds.

And yes casual players may not mind this change (because they dont care about the game, because they never played with lbd or whyever) but those dont care about most changes. The ones who do care are the important ones.

60% positive on steam is like... abysmal! And that is for 17.2 so no "bugs and premature rants" excuses ;)

 

That poll was just an interest poll. It was not conducted to drive design decisions. Yes, the majority of the people who took the poll want LBD. That fact has failed to change TFP's mind. And the low rating is almost entirely because of poor performance and horrendous RWG because you are right that new players have no idea what LBD is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, never mind the low rating - their updates are not modular, many different changes are being made at the same time so it's hard to discern the main causes.

 

But the poll is an actual piece of data that indicates the popularity of LBD, right? And yes, TFP shouldn't cave in to everything the community says - that would be terrible for any game. I just personally wish I had seen a single convincing reason supporting that decision, but instead I see reasons such as...

It severely limits player choice. Do anything fun get xp, buy what you want with that xp, not be locked into repetitive grindy actions that force you to do stupid things like get stabbed to improve your armor ability.
...which, forgive me but, could even be refuted convincingly by a brick wall.

 

Funny how some people advocating for a change claim to be speaking for the majority, when having no objective basis for doing so.....

 

....and I say that as some who prefers LBD too. I just don't claim that my preference is anyone else's but my own.

 

Yes, but the one you quoted did base his claim on a piece of data. Shouldn't you have to discredit that, before discrediting his claim?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That poll was just an interest poll. It was not conducted to drive design decisions. Yes, the majority of the people who took the poll want LBD. That fact has failed to change TFP's mind. And the low rating is almost entirely because of poor performance and horrendous RWG because you are right that new players have no idea what LBD is.

 

Are

you

serious

???

 

530 voices is "just an interest poll"? That is like about 1/10th of active players. The fact that this did nothing to change their mind (coupled with all the arguments on the forums) should be concerning.

 

The low rating is because the game is just less fun.

I said it like 10 times already. It has nearly no replayability, is stripped of its original charme and core features got changed for the worse.

All related to the perk system.

 

But I do grant you that a big chunk is also about beeing frustrated with tfps for continously ignoring fan feedback on important matters and doing their own thing. Which is a double edged sword.

 

 

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/251570/7_Days_to_Die/#app_reviews_hash

 

They all talk how the game has lost its charm and is just a simple xp grind. And it will stay this way with this perksystem. Because even the "xp by time" approach i just read about makes this game boring because you have to wait until you can level.

I am a quick player. Some ppl have a bow and a little hut when I have an ak best armor and 40k dukes. But with this approach I will be held back until I have played as much as that one guy who just started and doesnt know how to find ressources.

 

As soon as you make it "perk" or "point" bound, it will be tied to xp. And xp will be the main currency for progress. There is no way around it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as popularity goes, I think it's safe to say that LBD is objectively far more popular. Even if the poll divided the LBD sentiment's popularity to "A16 LBD" and "pure LBD" (which has little point because people have only experienced the former), the result was greatly in favor of having LBD in general. And I think that the forum is a decent enough pool, which one can draw conclusions from, and compared to other places I don't think there is a reason for it to be biased towards one or the other.

 

(Yeah and because of a poll GB leaves the EU. If the poll was done today, projections say it would be different. In the 16th century a lot of polls (for or against slavery, womens votes, monarchy) would have resulted in quite different results than today. A vote which brand of limonade tastes better will also depend on circumstances like the temperature each limonade has. The outcome of a presidential vote in the US also depends on how the voting districts and countries are parcelated.)

 

1. A17 had lots of problems (like lots of missing mods and high end items, magazines not a good substitute to books) that also made the perks system look bad. Probably even the bad game performance influenced the poll somewhat.

 

2. The active people here in the forums are a self-selected crowd of people who were drawn to the part of the game that already was implemented. Since RPG features came last, the RPG crowd is probably under-represented.

 

3. Nostalgia is also quite rampant. You look back at the old times (when the game was fresh and everything new), forget the bad moments and glorify the good. Evidence of this can be seen practically every alpha. The more is changed the bigger the nostalgia.

 

4. People against something are more likely to act, post and vote in a non-mandatory poll. Absolutely pure bias.

 

Yes, I'm arguing the validity of the result. It is just an inofficial biased poll. And the bias will always be there. And yes, if it had a different outcome I would point to the poll like you do, as an indicator. But biased? Hell, yes, no denying that. I don't expect TFP to follow the poll, even if it went in my direction.

 

Next stop A18, we'll see whether a poll then has a different outcome.

 

As far as arguments go, one can say that everything is subjective (imo it is not, if they can be explained by global standards), but it can't be helped, since each person understands and interprets them differently and most interpret what they want to interpret... So arguments no matter how good they are, are useless...

 

With games there is a damn high share of subjectivity, not the least because of tastes. For a survival player a safe area in this game is objectively a bug founded on his subjective tastes, for a sandbox player a safe area in this game is objectively a good thing founded on his subjective tastes. As arguments go, LBD AND perks have both proven to be successful working game concepts, objective problems can surface in actual implementations.

 

Is a strategy game better turn-based or real-time? I for myself can give the objective answer turn-based and can argue why it is. The reasons are still based on my personal tastes and abilities, not on any universal objective truth.

 

LBD was argued over ever since A16 replaced A15, not just since A17. Do you really see any new arguments have emerged? How long should TFP listen to this merry-go-round if they have decided to go for perks at least until A18? Even if you feel they haven't judged your arguments right, how long does it make sense to argue with a vegetarian over your belief that meat is good?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[...]

 

interesting... nearly all you just said I would have used as arguments for the validation of that poll.

 

"1. A17 had lots of problems (like lots of missing mods and high end items, magazines not a good substitute to books) that also made the perks system look bad. Probably even the bad game performance influenced the poll somewhat. "

 

I'd say it would be even more clear, because nowadays the flaws of this system have been experienced first hand and people aren't excited about the new toy they have been given. But to be fair most of the forum that was frustrated with A17 and the devs reasons and unwillingness to acknowledge their mistakes have left so the poll might actually be in favour of the perksystem when taken on the forum today.

 

"2. The active people here in the forums are a self-selected crowd of people who were drawn to the part of the game that already was implemented. Since RPG features came last, the RPG crowd is probably under-represented. "

 

they are the most active playerbase and the one that should have the biggest weight since they keep the game alive.

 

"3. Nostalgia is also quite rampant. You look back at the old times (when the game was fresh and everything new), forget the bad moments and glorify the good. Evidence of this can be seen practically every alpha. The more is changed the bigger the nostalgia. "

 

again I would say ppl actually were happier back then because it was new and fresh and they didnt get to their 3rd playthrough to level 40 before becoming bored yet.

 

"4. People against something are more likely to act, post and vote in a non-mandatory poll. Absolutely pure bias. "

 

true. but nonvoters could be counted as "non caring". Its the reason why nonvoters are looked down upon in our society. And they are beeing told they shouldn'T complain because they didnt vote.

 

 

You will not ever get a better result without an ingame mandetory form that you have to fill out after a certain amount of numbers. So this is the best we have. And ignoring it is the biggest middle finger to all those who actually care about this game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if you feel they haven't judged your arguments right, how long does it make sense to argue with a vegetarian over your belief that meat is good?

It never does bc its a position not supported by facts... :p

 

*just throwing that little bit of spice in this comment section just to cause an uproar*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Yeah and because of a poll GB leaves the EU. If the poll was done today, projections say it would be different. In the 16th century a lot of polls (for or against slavery, womens votes, monarchy) would have resulted in quite different results than today. A vote which brand of limonade tastes better will also depend on circumstances like the temperature each limonade has. The outcome of a presidential vote in the US also depends on how the voting districts and countries are parcelated.)

 

1. A17 had lots of problems (like lots of missing mods and high end items, magazines not a good substitute to books) that also made the perks system look bad. Probably even the bad game performance influenced the poll somewhat.

 

2. The active people here in the forums are a self-selected crowd of people who were drawn to the part of the game that already was implemented. Since RPG features came last, the RPG crowd is probably under-represented.

 

3. Nostalgia is also quite rampant. You look back at the old times (when the game was fresh and everything new), forget the bad moments and glorify the good. Evidence of this can be seen practically every alpha. The more is changed the bigger the nostalgia.

 

4. People against something are more likely to act, post and vote in a non-mandatory poll. Absolutely pure bias.

 

Yes, I'm arguing the validity of the result. It is just an inofficial biased poll. And the bias will always be there. And yes, if it had a different outcome I would point to the poll like you do, as an indicator. But biased? Hell, yes, no denying that. I don't expect TFP to follow the poll, even if it went in my direction.

 

Next stop A18, we'll see whether a poll then has a different outcome.

 

Hahahahah very true. These can easily be indicators of why the poll was biased. And I can think of additional reasons (I hate that "nostalgia" argument though, it is purely speculative and abstract). I can also think of a fewer, admittedly, reasons that would make people biased towards the perk side, just one - the moderators and developers being strongly in favor of and promoting the system influencing the community at every chance.

 

But let's assume there was a lot more bias in favor of LBD (I think that is the actual case too). The fact remains that the only piece of data we have says something. In the same way, GB's majority may have changed its mind, but as long as that referendum stands, they won't change course. In addition, the greater the difference between the two in the result is, the less likely the result was changed due to any external factor. In the end, until another poll is conducted, since this is the only actual non-speculative evidence we have, one has the right to claim that the results are what they are, correct?

 

As for TFP following the poll results? Hell no, they should take feedback into consideration, but ultimately think for themselves. It's that thinking I criticize, if that thinking was reflected in the comments they made about it, but in the end they don't really owe me or anyone else a convincing explanation.

 

With games there is a damn high share of subjectivity, not the least because of tastes. For a survival player a safe area in this game is objectively a bug founded on his subjective tastes, for a sandbox player a safe area in this game is objectively a good thing founded on his subjective tastes.

 

This particular subject might have been the single most discussed subject on the forums throughout the game's course. And in a more general sense, the debate over sandbox "freedom" and "forced" survival. Yes there is a high share of subjectivity and bias about each of them. Personally, I am in favor of the latter for reasons I always explain thoroughly. Are these reasons biased because of my tastes? I can't convince anyone that they aren't, but hey, I quote Freud more often than not, that must count for something :p. Anyway, in the end it's the devs' decisions, their game, so we can only stay calm and give feedback.

 

As arguments go, LBD AND perks have both proven to be successful working game concepts, objective problems can surface in actual implementations.

 

LBD was argued over ever since A16 replaced A15, not just since A17. Do you really see any new arguments have emerged? How long should TFP listen to this merry-go-round if they have decided to go for perks at least until A18? Even if you feel they haven't judged your arguments right, how long does it make sense to argue with a vegetarian over your belief that meat is good?

 

As long as it doesn't litter every other part of the forum, there is no harm to it. No discussion has been kept alive forever by a handful of people. And if you look carefully, it is mostly not the same old players bringing it up at first - it's usually someone who doesn't know that the horse is dead in the first place. Rest of us just want to be let to quietly beat it up in a dark corner from time to time. Who knows, maybe it gets up again someday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates/page21

 

72.21% is definatly the majority. It is more than 2/3rds.

 

72 of 315%, that's not even 25%

I don't think that poll is very accurate or indicative, given how flawed it is.

 

Are

you

serious

???

 

530 voices is "just an interest poll"? That is like about 1/10th of active players. The fact that this did nothing to change their mind (coupled with all the arguments on the forums) should be concerning.

 

Since you seem to be incapable of telling the difference between CONCURRENT players and ACTIVE players, let me point you out that 5.000 peak daily can translate to 50.000 players daily unique player logins and 500.000 players monthly, because not everyone plays every single day, for the same amount of time, at the exact same times.

Not going to elaborate further, I'll just hope you'll get the idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And if you look carefully, it is mostly not the same old players bringing it up at first - it's usually someone who doesn't know that the horse is dead in the first place. Rest of us just want to be let to quietly beat it up in a dark corner from time to time. Who knows, maybe it gets up again someday.

 

Hehe, if you look carefully you will also see a few NEW posts who complement TFP or MM about A17 generally. Why do they not specifically mention perks? Well, why should they? They don't know that that specific horse is talked about at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sirillion ain't that the purpose of the forum? :)

I know the game can't cater to everyone.

I just believe that users feedback helps building a better product.

I've heard great things on the opposing side, from Roland notably.

 

Of course it is, and I for one would love the return of LBD. But a no is a no...no?

 

When one of the lead designers ask us to move the discussion out of the Dev Diary and the Community Manager does just that it doesn't mean that we have to lay the discussion dead, just that he doesn't want to wade through all those posts of things he doesn't want to deal with right now.

 

If I've learned anything about TFP and 7DtD over the years I've been part of this community is that nothing is set in stone as long as this is EA. The different systems have been changed and changed again, doesn't mean that LBD is coming back, doesn't mean it won't, it does mean it will be an uphill battle to get it back though.

 

If I had my way TFP would, at the very least since they said they won't bring it back, add a toggle to the different attributes / perks in the xml files for a check where the modding community could set the value to "false" and as such bring the LBD system back to life without the need for dll hacks to do it.

 

That way TFP can continue to build and balance the system they want while at the same time retain the code in the dll for the LBD system so that the game could still be be EAC safe. The modders who decide to do this would of course have to re-balance the game though, not a small task.

 

It could look something like this...change the value for point_progression to false and it turns that perk from point to xp based.

<perk name="perkArchery" parent="skillMarksmanship" name_key="perkArcheryName" desc_key="perkArcheryDesc" icon="ui_game_symbol_archery" point_progression="true">

Link to comment
Share on other sites

72 of 315%, that's not even 25%

I don't think that poll is very accurate or indicative, given how flawed it is.

 

Doesn't work like that. It is segmented and multiple choice. The other options besides the first three are irrelevant. Roland knew what he was doing when he made the poll (he just shouldn't have divided the LBD into two parts, kinda corrupts the additive result).

 

Hehe, if you look carefully you will also see a few NEW posts who complement TFP or MM about A17 generally. Why do they not specifically mention perks? Well, why should they? They don't know that that specific horse is talked about at the moment.

 

Yes, new players wouldn't know anything about that horse. What about them though?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

72 of 315%, that's not even 25%

I don't think that poll is very accurate or indicative, given how flawed it is.

 

 

 

Since you seem to be incapable of telling the difference between CONCURRENT players and ACTIVE players, let me point you out that 5.000 peak daily can translate to 50.000 players daily unique player logins and 500.000 players monthly, because not everyone plays every single day, for the same amount of time, at the exact same times.

Not going to elaborate further, I'll just hope you'll get the idea.

 

2nd one i get that. It was only there to show that it is a considerable amount of active players.

Peak concurrent players yesterday: 11,551

so even if we say that there is double that over the course of the month and all are active and valid, it is still 500 out of 20000

which is a samplesize big enough to draw conclusions from.

 

The first part is completely wrong though.

Because I was counting in percentage not in numbers.

72%

so 382 out of 529

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can somebody tell me what mod to use to get away from the current level system? Its not all bad but just find it boring. I was so excited about alpha 17 and most of it is impressive but just cannot face playing it how it is anymore

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can somebody tell me what mod to use to get away from the current level system? Its not all bad but just find it boring. I was so excited about alpha 17 and most of it is impressive but just cannot face playing it how it is anymore

 

I find that hard to comprehend.

 

"Its not bad, but I want mindless grind back" basically.

 

You can still grind as much and as hard as you did, you're just not forced to hump cacti or spam bandages to actually achieve something - how that wasn't boring for you is beyond my comprehension.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LBD wont come back. No matter how much we write. So dont even try to give examples. They wont listen.

But we can still try and explain how they are wrong. That LBD is something incredibly special and they've let it go to waste.

 

I know LBD won't be coming back. This decision has been made and we have to come to terms with it. What bothers me in the discussion is that LBD opponents practically always use the same arguments that I can not understand.

 

A popular argument is that you could only level the armor by hugging a cactus for hours. I never did that. My armor was simply leveled by taking hits in melee combat. In the end the armor wasn't on 100% but that didn't bother me. I don't have to get 100% everywhere.

 

Or the other argument is that you leveled the shotgun by shooting at stones while mining. I had hardly any level in the shotgun because I just didn't use it. Why should I level it if I never use it anyway ?

 

On the other hand, I had everything at 100% which I did a lot of. I built a lot, dug a lot and used the baton and the crossbow as my primary weapons. Also with the sniper rifle I had 100% because I used it with every blood moon horde.

 

I never understood why someone thinks they have to have 100% everywhere ? Why should someone level something he never uses anyway ?

 

One problem you had with the LBD system used in Alpha 16 was that some of the perks were linked together. For example you could only build the chemistry station if you reached a certain level in other perks. This had nothing to do with the way how LBD works. It was a decision of the developers and those were the level gates of Alpha 16.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A popular argument is that you could only level the armor by hugging a cactus for hours. I never did that. My armor was simply leveled by taking hits in melee combat. In the end the armor wasn't on 100% but that didn't bother me. I don't have to get 100% everywhere.

 

What annoys me is that it is presented like one can't treat damage sources in code differently. God knows why you could level it up with hugging a cactus in the first place!

 

Or the other argument is that you leveled the shotgun by shooting at stones while mining. I had hardly any level in the shotgun because I just didn't use it. Why should I level it if I never use it anyway ?

 

Huh, didn't know that. Ignoring bullet economy etc, the same thing applies as the above example. As if one can't check without any performance loss what the player is hitting.

 

That's why I can't resist replying in favor of the LBD everytime I see these kinds of arguments, they absolutely trigger me, it's like they are used to be done with the matter quickly instead of real/legit reasons :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, new players wouldn't know anything about that horse. What about them though?

 

With new I meant the same non-old players you talked about (i.e. non-regulars on this forum, they might or might not be old players) . But I see the reason you brought them up was just to say they are the ones restarting the discussion. So, just ignore that last paragraph on my last post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can somebody tell me what mod to use to get away from the current level system? Its not all bad but just find it boring. I was so excited about alpha 17 and most of it is impressive but just cannot face playing it how it is anymore

 

seeing as this is more a discussion thread, maybe ask in the modding section... maybe they know

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With new I meant the same non-old players you talked about (i.e. non-regulars on this forum, they might or might not be old players) . But I see the reason you brought them up was just to say they are the ones restarting the discussion. So, just ignore that last paragraph on my last post.

 

Yeah, not always the case surely, but it also makes sense since they don't know that this discussion has been done 999 times. Then it gets heated up and in the end the same old players are throwing arguments on either side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find that hard to comprehend.

 

"Its not bad, but I want mindless grind back" basically.

 

You can still grind as much and as hard as you did, you're just not forced to hump cacti or spam bandages to actually achieve something - how that wasn't boring for you is beyond my comprehension.

 

I did not play the game like that and just went with the flow of it. It is just a mindless grind now but mining or killing zombies. I find myself just mining in straight lines just to level up point.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

seeing as this is more a discussion thread, maybe ask in the modding section... maybe they know

 

With this being the LBD thread i was hoping someone could point me to that direction

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can still grind as much and as hard as you did, you're just not forced to hump cacti or spam bandages to actually achieve something - how that wasn't boring for you is beyond my comprehension.

 

Why should one be forced to hump a cactus or to spam bandages? I never did that and had no disadvantages in the game. This must be some kind of hidden achievement that I didn't know about and that everyone wants to have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why should one be forced to hump a cactus or to spam bandages? I never did that and had no disadvantages in the game. This must be some kind of hidden achievement that I didn't know about and that everyone wants to have.

 

I don't get it either.

I'm a completionist and a "power gamer" who always played on the highest difficulty. I enjoyed every second of "powerleveling" to be a monster on day 28.

But I never used cacti (waste of time and ressources) or shot a wall (waste of ressources) or any other exploity thing besides the trader "exploit".

It was an inefficient way to level something that wasn't worth leveling (from 0-100 armor there was nearly no difference in armor when you use the time actually finding ressources to craft a better armor or buy it.

If you had a military vest and the rest iron you only got like 7 dmg per hit from a feral. So there was no need to powerlevel it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...