LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

[SylenThunder]

What's more effective changes as the game progresses. In the beginning it is definitely more effective to kill zombies instead of hitting rocks with a stone axe. In the late game even looting a bird's nest give more XP than killing a zombie.

Once you've put a point into sexual tyrannosaurus, and have looted an iron pick, you get more exp from hitting rocks. This is easily done by day 2. By day 3 you're leveling twice as fast with mining than you are finding zeds to kill.

 

In my most recent gameplay with a friend, by day 4 I was level 28 and they were only 16. All I did was work on building our base, and they were exploring town and killing zeds.

The only holdback was stamina, food, and water. The latter two are easy to get, and the first is managed by just applying a couple of skillpoints in the first few levels. After that, it was cake.

[AtomicUs5000]

The amount of XP you get for doing different things will change depending on what you placed your points in and when.

 

Early game, mid game, late game... doesn’t matter. If at any point you can gain more XP doing a specific task, things are unbalanced under this system. It is likely to be harder to balance as this system becomes more involved in A18.

 

I mention this because of the recent posts in this thread and also because “hard to balance” was once used as a reason to change the system in the first place.

 

I think eventually I will grow to appreciate the new system, especially once A18 arrives, but I expect crazy imbalance coming with it. However, there could be enough randomness with books to cause a kind of imbalance that is more based on chance, resulting in a near-impossible situation to balance, to the point people won’t even care anymore.

[RestInPieces]

but I expect crazy imbalance coming with it. However, there could be enough randomness with books to cause a kind of imbalance that is more based on chance, resulting in a near-impossible situation to balance, to the point people won’t even care anymore.

 

I definitely don't expect this system or xp sources to be balanced especially after seeing various dev comments about it. As I see it, the only way it can be balanced is if they strictly balance them according to the max xp/time one can get from an activity only (which is hard to measure for e.g. zombie killing), no other factors included. I also think books will throw off item economy/perks to an extend and will create more problems than the benefits they will bring by being chase items.

 

I don't think much consideration is being put into "these kinds of stuff" and don't think they are trying to avoid a "game-y" approach (the new kamikaze zombie is an indication they aren't). Also hopefully they will see future complaints for what they really are, because these things do make a difference. That's just the pessimistic me though, hope they prove me wrong.

[OldManBrian]

I'm convinced they don't actually play the game. They definitely don't play it like a lot of the playerbase plays it (persistent, long term survival worlds with communal PVE and/or PVP experience).

 

There's a couple of them working to get the code to be as efficient as possible. But the ones that seem to be driving the boat creatively/gameplay experience-wise are simply dabbling with the mundane in the game as their day job. They play other games.

 

I think this is accurate, but generally common in the gaming industry. (And software development in general.)

 

Makes sense too, from a development standpoint it's probably hard to maintain a long-term survival world with constant code changes going in. Add to that just the fact that testing requires multiple gameplay runs over and over, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game and makes it difficult for a developer to see the "fun" in what they're doing.

 

Hence the changes in development direction and narrowing focus over time with many of these major updates:

 

• Dramatically smaller maps
  
• Streamlining
  
• Stripping of features that the devs seemingly got bored with or add difficulty to balancing (LBD, random loot schematics, etc)
  

 

They all make it easier to balance and quicker to test, as well as making the gameplay loops "faster" to keep things fresh for them. Problem is a lot of us (I like to think the majority) liked the wide open spaces, pacing, and unpredictability of the randomly looted schematics.

[AtomicUs5000]

I think this is accurate, but generally common in the gaming industry. (And software development in general.)

 

Makes sense too, from a development standpoint it's probably hard to maintain a long-term survival world with constant code changes going in. Add to that just the fact that testing requires multiple gameplay runs over and over, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game and makes it difficult for a developer to see the "fun" in what they're doing.

 

Hence the changes in development direction and narrowing focus over time with many of these major updates:

 

• Dramatically smaller maps
  
• Streamlining
  
• Stripping of features that the devs seemingly got bored with or add difficulty to balancing (LBD, random loot schematics, etc)
  

 

They all make it easier to balance and quicker to test, as well as making the gameplay loops "faster" to keep things fresh for them. Problem is a lot of us (I like to think the majority) liked the wide open spaces, pacing, and unpredictability of the randomly looted schematics.

 

It's a good theory, but...

There are at least 11 new weapons shipping with Alpha 18, and probably more. Over 140 schematics to find and unlock. Over 100 books..

 

Try testing and balancing that in less time.

[meganoth]

Once you've put a point into sexual tyrannosaurus, and have looted an iron pick, you get more exp from hitting rocks. This is easily done by day 2. By day 3 you're leveling twice as fast with mining than you are finding zeds to kill.

 

In my most recent gameplay with a friend, by day 4 I was level 28 and they were only 16. All I did was work on building our base, and they were exploring town and killing zeds.

The only holdback was stamina, food, and water. The latter two are easy to get, and the first is managed by just applying a couple of skillpoints in the first few levels. After that, it was cake.

 

I notice the same in my playthroughs. BUT what minmaxers (I use the term as description, not as an accusation) are doing is shooting in the air around a few pois and mass-slaughtering the zombies coming out of the pois. I never tried this, but I find it believable that you could be leveling faster this way than mining for at least the first week. One way to balance this might be to transfer zombie xp to box-opening/scavening xp (because then you only get the full xp package if you fully loot the POIs you are emptying with the mass murder). Or even diminishing returns if you kill zombies in fast succession ( a change specifically for minmax prevention, a last resort fix if nothing else helps)

 

(Or simply ignore that there are minmaxers out there )

[Morloc]

(Or simply ignore that there are minmaxers out there )

 

 

 

But that's what they WANT you to do!!!

 

 

 

-Morloc

[RestInPieces]

I notice the same in my playthroughs. BUT what minmaxers (I use the term as description, not as an accusation) are doing is shooting in the air around a few pois and mass-slaughtering the zombies coming out of the pois. I never tried this, but I find it believable that you could be leveling faster this way than mining for at least the first week.

 

True, you are right, even more than just one week - until you get steel tools & 5/5 perks, zombie killing can be more efficient. And people mostly just do everything they can to attract zombies to their base, rather than explore.

 

Thing is it's not only min-maxers that do that. Min-maxing usually means "optimizing something to perfection", but what we have here are strong incentives and easy ways for players to do these things - it's like saying that "when playing WoW/most other mmorpgs, doing quests instead of grinding mobs is min-maxing". It is not - it's an obvious easy way and it's natural for most players to behave that way (and for some to ruin their experience in the process).

[meganoth]

nothing

[Kubikus]

If you actually wanted to balance the xp-gain, your best bet would be to just reward time played instead of paying different activities differently. Earn a steady amount of xp as long as you do anything. How and why would mining be worth more xp than killing zombies or the other way around? And if I summon screamers that summon zombies all day or if I stand in front of a stone wall with my auger all day, how is that more valuable or meaningful or productive than exploring the map or placing hundreds of blocks, building a giant castle? Two activities that are not rewarded with xp at all. I mean, of course I can make up arguments for any possible standpoint, skill, risk, resources earned, structures built, square blocks explored - but it is merely a matter of opinion, so every intelligent person has to accept it as an undenieable fact that all activities are of equal worth.

 

And - btw - any opinion, that declares one activity more valuable than another, contradicts the most powerful argument for a perk system, which is "freedom".

 

Speaking of that powerful argument, allow me to weaken it. Also free I am to grab whatever I desire from the creative menu and use the console to supply myself with all the xp necessary to buy every perk. The game, if we'd argue that these are not the rules, could just be designed to allow that or something alike, such as pois all over the map that have an endless supply of every block and item, and instead of a perk system, the player spawns already blessed with all available abilities. So in other words, the freedom that we have if we decide to use what's currently understood as cheating, could simply be created as a regular game mechanic.

 

But we don't want that. And why do we not want that? Because we want to have a progression. And why do we want to have a progression? Because it feels good to gradually acquire better equipment and abilities. It really is merely a biochemical principle: The game provides us with a constant stream of small rewards that make us a little happy all the time. It's how the brain works, look it up if you're interested, here's a starting point.

 

I, and with me it seems a significant number of players, prefer to "work" towards specific goals with specific activities, because I find it rather unsatisfying when I can just stand in front of a stone wall with an auger for a day, level up 10 times and buy ten ranged weapons related perks. Without ever having even fired a gun. It does - sorta kinda - feel like cheating. Just like it does feel like cheating when I kill 100 zombies and unlock recipes for workstations and power tools. How does one lead to the other? Not through logic, but merely by the developers' declaration that it's ok. It feels like cheating - while I know it certainly isn't - because of the disconnect between activity and reward.

 

There is no real equivalent in real life, but looking for one, this came to mind: It is (usually) much more satisfying to build something yourself, like, say, furniture or a pc or whatever art than to just pick a finished product off of a shelve. One (usually) feels better about oneself if one created a thing oneself, because of the closer connection of one with the thing. One, then, has a history with the thing, one has, so to speak, become one with the thing. A part of it, one's time is in the thing, one's passion. Heart and soul? Very possible. It's that feeling of pride and accomplishment, that is a prominent factor that makes games fun to play.

 

 

Another pro-lbd argument that I have not really seen being layed out: When lbd was a thing, I used to start with leveling up the pistol and the club. Which sounds more like a strategy than it is - you would simply find the pistol and the club (and ammo for the pistol) earlier than other weapons, and use them, thus automatically and naturally leveling the skills. In the later game, however, working on another skill that I had not yet leveled, often the hunting rifle and the machete, was "something to do" and indeed a concrete plan and conscious decision. I did not need the rifle or the machete, the pistol and the club were doing every necessary job just fine, but improving with other weapons was another goal, that would "force" me into a a) certain different "playstyle" (using that other weapon) and b) position of "weakness", because the damage dealt was still low in comparison. And of course it would function as an untapped source of rewards, adding more funsies to the game.

 

I still can work towards goals today, sure, but I can just power towards them with the same old same old that I had maxed out asap within the first week of playing. And if you really want to reach a certain goal, you are highly inclined to use the fastest available method.

 

Now, of course in such cases, we hear the "but you can" or "just roleplay it"-argument. It's not the same, because during your roleplaying, you are fully aware that you are being inefficient, that a method is freely available, legal and not cheating, that would take you to your goal much faster and/or more convenient.

 

And efficiency and convenience are yet again two qualities our brains like a lot. Which leads me back to what I said in post #259 in this thread.

[Roland]

If you actually wanted to balance the xp-gain, your best bet would be to just reward time played instead of paying different activities differently.

 

Here's another starting point.

[Kubikus]

Here's another starting point.

Basically, your 0xp mod could be an interesting approach, though not one I personally would like, at least not as long as working for things is possible, and considering this mod, it seems that even the lbd-mechanic can be brought back to a satisfying degree.

 

But what happens next, will shock you:

 

Your

 

4) Training In Return For Jobs

 

Completing jobs for the trader will result in him training you in those areas of your choice. Challenge, Tier 1, and Tier 2 quests will be rewarded with 1 skillpoint. Tier 3 and Tier 4 quests will be rewarded 2 skillpoints. Tier 5 quests will be rewarded with 3 skillpoints.

completely nullifies your

 

2) Zero Experience For Actions

 

Actions in the game are now only valuable for helping you survive and accomplish your goals. There are no xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up. Do what you want because of your objectives and play organically.

My strategy would be to find a couple of traders, ideally located close together, while pushing to unlock the motorcycle, so I can finish as many quests per day as possible. Particularly with enough higher tier quests, that can amount to well over ten skillpoints per day. That means that your mod, that claims to have romoved all "xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up", actually does the opposite and provides only one very specific incentive. Nothing aids your progress but doing the quests.

 

Accordingly, I highly recommend that you remove the 4) to restore your mod's integrity. In that case, yes, there would be no incentive anymore, to do one thing over another. Or to do anything at all.

 

The question, however, remains, why such an incentive would be bad. It would be bad, if the incentive would be unfair, which can be the case in a perk-driven mechanic where you get more rewards for activity A than you get for activity B, without a proper reason. With an LBD-mechanic your incentive is to do the things you want to do, and get better at them, while doing them. But is that in any way against "your objectives" or un"organic"? Not at all. You do what you have to, according to your playstyle. Say your playstyle is building big castles. Mine a lot, get better at it, get more resources along the way. Very organic. My playstyle is killing zombies. So I kill a lot, get better at it, and kill them more efficently. How is that not the most organic thing in the world?

 

In any case is it interesting that you have that feature while you are running a "0XP" theme, that explicitly tries to remove "xp incentives to tempt" the player to do "one thing or another". It looks much like you were - however subconsciously - unhappy without a way to actively work toward rewards. So maybe you really should investigate the thing about the brain's response to rewards further and understand, how video games even work. Why they are "fun".

[Roland]

Well I created the mod for myself and I don’t obsessively farm quests to gain 10 skill points per day from the trader. Plus the great thing about xpath modlets is that anyone who wishes can easily remove the skill point reward from the quest part of it if they are prone to the same temptations of farming to speed progress that they were with LBD. That is the genius of the xpath modular design.

 

Finally, having played it I can say that it really does remove the incentive to do specific actions for the purpose of gaining XP. It does give incentive to do quests but those have travel time and multiple activities associated with them that tie into the normal activities of playing the game. Also, and I can only speak for myself, doing the quests for a skillpoint have more of a quality of you've done the trader a favor and so he is going to teach you something. That is quite a bit different thematically than just mining for hours or actively seeking out and hunting zombies purely for the purpose of gaining xp.

 

So, of course, your mileage may vary but instead of psycho-analyzing my motives for having skill point quest rewards that you think nullifies my first claim of no xp incentives to do specific actions-- just remove those quest rewards from the xpath by changing the skillpoint reward values to zero if you feel you would be irresistably influenced to spam quests all day long.

[Druga Runda]

Are

you

serious

???

 

530 voices is "just an interest poll"? That is like about 1/10th of active players. The fact that this did nothing to change their mind (coupled with all the arguments on the forums) should be concerning.

 

The low rating is because the game is just less fun.

I said it like 10 times already. It has nearly no replayability, is stripped of its original charme and core features got changed for the worse.

All related to the perk system.

 

to add +1 to this

 

There are also some of us who stopped playing, but keep an interest of where is the whole thing going. Seeing a LBD thread certainly brings my hope up for this game, with which I could not engage anymore in A17.

 

While I am certainly not the target audience, I am still interested to see if there will be a change in direction, as the base game used to be great, from my perspective. (peak best was somewhere between A10 and A12). While the goal of game design should not be to pander to an old audience which got disengaged with "new" developments, the fact that there at least a discussion going on with those who still remain engaged and playing about LBD, gets my hopes up (perhaps unrealistically so). I am sure there are more of us than just me, and perhaps even new players who never started playing this game, ie if I only found about 7DTD now, I certainly would not have played 1300 hours, but was just lucky I got in on time.

 

Either way there certinly is an audience out there which would find a hybrid LBD system more engaging than this glorified zombie killer that the game turned out to be (focusing at something what the game enginge is not even good at - shooter simulator).

 

There are many issues from my perspective, ie "wrong direction" from where we used to be to where this game went, however if LBD was back, with whatever good or bad other game dev choices are in place, I would find the game more interesting to engage with again, that is for sure.

 

The judgement on how many of this type of players are out there, is a different topic, ultimatley it is about how devs "feel" about it. For me I'd rather have a game where I learn how to use the shotgun and get better while I am using it, even if it means that I could also stand next to the cactus with bandages, if I want to get that medical skill up. Getting medical skill up is entirely optional (i could live with baseline bandage healing rate just fine), while killing zombies and becoming a super medic/chemist/miner/whaetever is just disengaging (for me, off course).

[Kubikus]

Well I created the mod for myself and I don’t obsessively farm quests to gain 10 skill points per day from the trader. Plus the great thing about xpath modlets is that anyone who wishes can easily remove the skill point reward from the quest part of it if they are prone to the same temptations of farming to speed progress that they were with LBD. That is the genius of the xpath modular design.

 

Finally, having played it I can say that it really does remove the incentive to do specific actions for the purpose of gaining XP. It does give incentive to do quests but those have travel time and multiple activities associated with them that tie into the normal activities of playing the game. Also, and I can only speak for myself, doing the quests for a skillpoint have more of a quality of you've done the trader a favor and so he is going to teach you something. That is quite a bit different thematically than just mining for hours or actively seeking out and hunting zombies purely for the purpose of gaining xp.

 

So, of course, your mileage may vary but instead of psycho-analyzing my motives for having skill point quest rewards that you think nullifies my first claim of no xp incentives to do specific actions-- just remove those quest rewards from the xpath by changing the skillpoint reward values to zero if you feel you would be irresistably influenced to spam quests all day long.

I'm not interested in your mod, Roland, however, while you claim it does not, it actually has a very strong and narrow incentive, to do quests in order to acquire skillpoints. And that you included this incentive is indeed a strong indication, that even the guy who actually wanted to create a mod without incentives, wants to have incentives. Because incentives are fun.

 

See, psychology is key in game design. A good designer knows their way around the human mind, how to tickle it, so the player enjoys the game.

 

Also:

 

The question, however, remains, why such an incentive would be bad. It would be bad, if the incentive would be unfair, which can be the case in a perk-driven mechanic where you get more rewards for activity A than you get for activity B, without a proper reason. With an LBD-mechanic your incentive is to do the things you want to do, and get better at them, while doing them. But is that in any way against "your objectives" or un"organic"? Not at all. You do what you have to, according to your playstyle. Say your playstyle is building big castles. Mine a lot, get better at it, get more resources along the way. Very organic. My playstyle is killing zombies. So I kill a lot, get better at it, and kill them more efficently. How is that not the most organic thing in the world?

[Roland]

I'm not interested in your mod, Roland,

 

Good. I'm not trying to convince you to try it. No worries. And I'll address this next part just to the general readership so you won't get the wrong idea that I'm trying to sell you on my mod.

 

 

I believe Kubikus' replies to me perfectly illustrate why LBD is wrong for this game as a vanilla default offering. His response to my mod was that I invalidated my claim that there is no incentive to do specific activities in order to gain xp because I offered skillpoint rewards for doing quests and if he were to play my version of the game he would definitely farm those quests in order to move along the progression as quickly as possible.

 

Now, if Kubikus would feel such a compulsion to do quests all day long as a way to hyperspeed up the progression ladder it seems clear that the granularity of LBD would compound that problem by a thousandfold. In other words, Kubikus is saying that I'm falsely advertising a pure progression based on time because the trader training component overwhelms and dominates my version of the game for anyone who is susceptible to that sort of play. I agree with that which is why I have always stated that my mod is best as a mod and not as the default version of the game.

 

By the same token, it has been clear to me since the earliest alphas when the LBD component was introduced that it immediately overwhelmed and dominated the game. Farming xp became the point of the game in the minds of many-- and there is nothing wrong with that for those who enjoy it. But that is exactly why LBD is much better as mod and should never be re-introduced as the default vanilla version of the game.

 

I feel that even the current version still puts too much of focus on xp incentives which is why I came up with my mod. I put the trader rewards in simply because with the removal of xp they seemed quite lackluster and (as I already mentioned) I felt that thematically it was like being trained by the trader so it gave the skillpoints some meaning beyond "kill some zombies get better at cooking". You would still kill some zombies or find a parcel but the reason you got better at cooking was not because of those actions-- it was because that was what you asked the trader to give some instruction in.

 

BUT....it is now clear to me that there is that subset of player that will farm anything simply to get to the top of the ladder at the fastest speed possible and they might feel irresistibly compelled to do multiple quests every day to the exclusion of all else which is why....its a mod.

 

And LBD should only be a mod for the same reason.

[Cernwn]

...diminishing returns if you kill zombies in fast succession...

 

THIS! Personally, I wouldn't mind if TFP applied diminishing returns to ANY source of xp repeated within say 5 minutes of a similar activity. Maybe boost the XP values across the board to counterbalance a bit for the diminishing return. However, I'm also fairly certain ANY sort of gating xp/leveling will cause the waterworks to begin.

 

Too many whiners out there which take to the forums whenever the slightest challenge is added to their playstyle. Although, devs sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring minmaxing, exploitative or cheating playstyles is only an intelligent design decision if A) the game is strictly single player, or B) they DON'T care at all about long term player retention or reviews.

[Dimpy]

Or even diminishing returns if you kill zombies in fast succession

 

This was what I was trying to accomplish with drip fed xp. The idea is that experiences don't instantly give the player skill points; instead they stick around and get absorbed/processed over the period of a few days, kind of approximating how learning happens in real life. The more experience you have unprocessed, the faster it contributes to leveling up, but if you accumulate too much, then your brain starts to "leak" and the effort/reward efficency falls.

[RipClaw]

If you only focus on fighting min-max players you will cause massive collateral damage.

 

One question has been left unanswered so far. How many of these min-max players are there who play "7 Days to die" at all? If the percentage of min-max players is very small, why waste any thought on them instead of building the system for all the other players?

[Roland]

If you only focus on fighting min-max players you will cause massive collateral damage.

 

One question has been left unanswered so far. How many of these min-max players are there who play "7 Days to die" at all? If the percentage of min-max players is very small, why waste any thought on them instead of building the system for all the other players?

 

There is no need to fight min/max players. With mods the game can support all playstyles. There are mods that restore LBD available right now. If you like LBD because it helps you play organically then get the mod. If you like LBD because you can speed spam your way to top level in short amount of time then get the mod.

 

Even better is if you can alter a mod to fit you even better. Like the idea of time-based survival rewards but don't want the trader quests to be integral? Get my mod and change all the skillpoint quest rewards to zero (super simple with xpath) and you have your game.

 

The devs are designing the vanilla game the way THEY want it. They experimented with LBD and decided to reject it for the vanilla game because they don't like that design. They aren't designing to fight anyone so much as they are spiraling in on what they really like and want. Those who like and want what they do will stick with vanilla and the rest will mod.

[Viktoriusiii]

They aren't designing to fight anyone so much as they are spiraling in on what they really like and want.

 

That is not true.

While it might be a part of it, it has been said (long ago) that they changed it because they werent able to balance it.

[Roland]

That is not true.

While it might be a part of it, it has been said (long ago) that they changed it because they werent able to balance it.

 

The difficulty of balancing is actually part of why they don't like it and why they are spiraling in on what they like better. Plus, it really isn't hard to see what game in the single most influencing factor on Joel's decisions regarding player progression.

[Viktoriusiii]

The difficulty of balancing is actually part of why they don't like it and why they are spiraling in on what they like better. Plus, it really isn't hard to see what game in the single most influencing factor on Joel's decisions regarding player progression.

 

Are you even allowed to throw such a curveball at them?

Like... I disagree a lot with you, but ppl actually say you are a yesman after such... uhm... comparisons?

 

and yes it is obvious. I think that it was so obvious, that it didn't even become a meme

[Roland]

Are you even allowed to throw such a curveball at them?

 

Curveball?

 

Like... I disagree a lot with you, but ppl actually say you are a yesman after such... uhm... comparisons?

 

Wat? Whatever you're pitching is going over my head.

 

and yes it is obvious. I think that it was so obvious, that it didn't even become a meme

 

It's so obvious Joel has openly stated it several dozen dozen times over the past six years...

[SnowDog1942]

Here's another starting point.

 

Love the idea of your mod, minus the skill point quest rewards. Do you plan to continue it into A18 and beyond?

 

I haven't tried it yet, but I definitely know I'm going to like it.