Stamina, Health, Food, Water logic, or lack thereof

[Dimpy]

why would you need to do 15 second micro-rests? You can continue working immediately after eating or drinking without any bad consequences.

 

Sorry, when I said "micro breaks" I was referring to the waiting you'd have to do for the regular stamina bar to fill up. At least in A17.1, this was something I had to do quite a bit when mining early game. There were quite a few fourm users that were vocal about hating it, calling it "tedious".

I was thinking (and implying) that if stamina was nerfed in one area, in this case losing the ability to instantly make your max stamina jump to 100% just by eating, it could get buffed in another area, like a faster regeneration rate, or a higher maximum-maximum stamina, while still being balanced. That would reduce to amount of micro-breaks you'd have to take.

 

This is not an advantage. In a game enforced resting periods are not a feature.

 

Funny story, World of Warcraft tried something similar. where you'd get an xp penalty the more consecutive hours you played, and players absolutely hated it. They complained and complained, and finally WoW replaced it. They replaced it with a system that was EXACTLY the same mechanically, except instead of calling it an xp penalty for consecutive hours played, it was labeled as an xp bonus for not playing the game too much in one sitting, and people stopped complaining. Anyway, what this means is maybe it's better to think about it as a "well-rested stamina bonus" instead of a "enforced rest period".

 

Besides, it's not like your being forced to stop mining after a certain period of time, it just means you might have a little bit more of a challenge on your hands should you be accosted by the errant zombie dog:smile-new:.

[Roland]

...At least in A17.1...

 

It would be really fantastic if those who like complain about Alpha 17 features could actually reference the current version of Alpha 17. It is so disingenuous to criticize features of Alpha 17 by referencing how things were in 17.0 or 17.1. We aren't playing those versions any longer and in particular in the case of stamina, huge concessions and backward bending for you folks were made in 17.2. I'm of a mind that the OP was probably referencing 17.0 instead of 17.2 in her comments....

 

So play a bit of 17.2 if you are going to have a conversation about the current state of affairs. I couldn't care less about yours or anyone else's thoughts about 17.0 or 17.1 at this point and pretty soon I won't give a rat's ass about 17.2 any more.

 

I know A17.0 scarred some of you and the PTSD from it creates 17.0 flashbacks but it isn't reality. 17.2 is the current reality!

[Roland]

Try it with a stone shovel. Then try a lvl 1 iron axe/pickaxe.

 

I was referencing the OP's claim that you can't even chop down a single tree without having to rest like in other games that supposedly do stamina better. She's wrong. You can chop down many trees without needing to rest on Day 1 without any perks purchased or any mods or better tools than the most basic one. You can also mine all three phases of a surface boulder without needing rest. I did try the stone shovel and you can destroy an entire block without needing to rest. The stamina drains faster for sure with digging but digging isn't as critical of an early game action as chopping and mining. By time you need to be digging for clay or gravel you will have been able to spend points in sexrex.

 

Different tools use different amounts of stam, and yes, you will run out.

(and that's what sexrex is for)

 

Yes, that is what sexrex is for and also what your brain is for to choose the correct tool for the stage of the game you are in. If you are lucky enough to find or buy a steel axe on Day 1 then you should expect to have to rest. Traditional RPGs would not even let you equip a tool or weapon beyond your ability to use it or outside your character class. This game gives you the choice to equip anything and leaves the choice to keep it equipped up to your own wisdom. Would you rather the game just lock access to stuff until you are ready to use it?

 

I do think the hidden extra 50% is weird though. Better to leave it at 100% so you can see where you are,

but not have detrimental effects until you drop below 50 (not percent, 50) in the food/water.

 

There, silliness solved.

 

Here is what was requested by the frothing at the mouth players in the wake of A17.0:

 

"We HATE that the stamina and fullness are linked 1:1. We should be able to eat and see the bar stay at 100% for a good while before it starts shrinking. We shouldn't have to constantly eat to keep the bar at max!"

 

So TFP did just that. You can eat food when your bar is close to max and that food isn't wasted. It will cause your stamina bar to remain at max for a period of time before the max once again begins to diminish. I don't see what is so difficult about the system. You notice your bar at about 95% and you eat some bacon and eggs. It goes back up to max and stays there for awhile. Why does anyone even need to care that it is 150? Because you have an unreasoning need to try and micromanage it to stay at 140 and above at all times?

[OzHawkeye]

Here is what was requested by the frothing at the mouth players in the wake of A17.0:

 

"We HATE that the stamina and fullness are linked 1:1. We should be able to eat and see the bar stay at 100% for a good while before it starts shrinking. We shouldn't have to constantly eat to keep the bar at max!"

 

So TFP did just that. You can eat food when your bar is close to max and that food isn't wasted. It will cause your stamina bar to remain at max for a period of time before the max once again begins to diminish. I don't see what is so difficult about the system. You notice your bar at about 95% and you eat some bacon and eggs. It goes back up to max and stays there for awhile. Why does anyone even need to care that it is 150? Because you have an unreasoning need to try and micromanage it to stay at 140 and above at all times?

 

I couldn't possibly agree with you more, Roland!

 

Being able to go to 150 was a very good move!. How anyone can disagree with that is beyond me.

[n2n1]

Shouldn't have tied stamina to food.

[RestInPieces]

I feel like I'm losing my mind sometimes in here. It's like the Twilight Zone sometimes. Like we play different games or something. How was wellness hard to raise at any point in the game? If anything, it was ridiculously easy... to the point where it didn't even matter if the system existed or not. You may as well have just handed out the max. Now, in this sense, it was bad.

 

It is. This usually happens because there are many different options that change gameplay a lot. It's also probably because 7D's gameplay is so inconsistent. For example, some could be eating infinite high quality foods while being holed up and completely safe until they maxed it, others may be risking and dying regularly in a high difficulty setting.

[canadianbluebeer]

It's more of we take a stam hit once things drop below our current max number.

 

Now IRL you feed yer face, and are not hungry. You go an do stuff. It takes a while to digest all that foods.

At some point you get hungry and thirsty, and will have to stop and rest from your labors.

 

Generally, water first (especially if hot), food last.

 

We don't know what % we're at for our hunger thirst. But that's IRL, not a game for fun.

 

edit: oops, missed that part about just he stone axe, and yeah, you can chop a lot

with that thing before running out. But pretty much ONLY the stone axe.

(and it takes forever)

 

I did get a lvl 2 steel pick early on, and yup, swing. pause a sec, swing.. still run out.

(iron works ok once you have 2-3 in sexrex, for steel, want 3-4. sledehammers, well duh.

of course those eat stamina.)

 

 

I like the idea of going over the max number, to simulate stocking up on food/water.

 

I'm just not keen on how fast we take the penalties is all.

 

 

Oh, and we do need some kind of drink that adds more than 24. hmm... or do we.

One large meal and I'm full (maxed at +50), yet drink 2 or 3 to hit the same.

 

Ok, time to make a jug or BIG drink container. (with commensurate material cost)

not the wee sippy cup drinks.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

It is. This usually happens because there are many different options that change gameplay a lot. It's also probably because 7D's gameplay is so inconsistent. For example, some could be eating infinite high quality foods while being holed up and completely safe until they maxed it, others may be risking and dying regularly in a high difficulty setting.

 

Yeah, I can see that. For me, when playing harder difficulties, it was the obvious strategy to put just a little focus on it right away. I suppose I could have not done that, but then to me I would just be forcing challenge through poor decisions.

[RestInPieces]

Yeah, I can see that. For me, when playing harder difficulties, it was the obvious strategy to put just a little focus on it right away. I suppose I could have not done that, but then to me I would just be forcing challenge through poor decisions.

 

Most people I've played with in A16, no matter the difficulty, chose to ignore basic needs altogether, killing themselves when any debuff became annoying. Other than dying faster when getting hit (which was of almost no consequence if they were close to the spawn), ignoring everything didn't hinder them in any other aspect. They did ruin their own gameplay experience and got bored of the game eventually though, but can't blame them.

[meganoth]

Most people I've played with in A16, no matter the difficulty, chose to ignore basic needs altogether, killing themselves when any debuff became annoying. Other than dying faster when getting hit (which was of almost no consequence if they were close to the spawn), ignoring everything didn't hinder them in any other aspect. They did ruin their own gameplay experience and got bored of the game eventually though, but can't blame them.

 

I can, especially because I suspect them also for lobbying to reduce the death penalty in A17.

[hotpoon]

I was referencing the OP's claim that you can't even chop down a single tree without having to rest like in other games that supposedly do stamina better. She's wrong. You can chop down many trees without needing to rest on Day 1 without any perks purchased or any mods or better tools than the most basic one. You can also mine all three phases of a surface boulder without needing rest. I did try the stone shovel and you can destroy an entire block without needing to rest. The stamina drains faster for sure with digging but digging isn't as critical of an early game action as chopping and mining. By time you need to be digging for clay or gravel you will have been able to spend points in sexrex.

 

Roland, with all due respect, I think you are reading what you think I am saying rather than what I am actually saying. Please quote me where I claimed that you can't chop down a tree without resting. You will find I did not say that. I mentioned that other games give you a modest (but enough to chop a few trees down) stamina pool, and then I went on to talk about how the stamina pool is not affected by anything other than actively using it. When I go on to talk about 7 Days, I complain about the fact that it is unnecessarily tied to food and drink, and how health is tied to bandages even when you aren't bleeding.

 

Here is what was requested by the frothing at the mouth players in the wake of A17.0:

"We HATE that the stamina and fullness are linked 1:1. We should be able to eat and see the bar stay at 100% for a good while before it starts shrinking. We shouldn't have to constantly eat to keep the bar at max!"

So TFP did just that.

 

In my humble opinion, this is a failure on the devs part to understand the core gripe which is that food and drink shouldn't be tied to stamina, but because it is tied to stamina, food and drink should at least not start damaging the stamina pool straight away (at 99% satiated or hydrated). Adding another 50 wasn't the obvious way to solve the problem. The obvious way would have been to lower the point at which the damage starts, for example when you only have 25% left of your food / drink.

[Viktoriusiii]

Roland, with all due respect, I think you are reading what you think I am saying rather than what I am actually saying. Please quote me where I claimed that you can't chop down a tree without resting. You will find I did not say that. I mentioned that other games give you a modest (but enough to chop a few trees down) stamina pool, and then I went on to talk about how the stamina pool is not affected by anything other than actively using it. When I go on to talk about 7 Days, I complain about the fact that it is unnecessarily tied to food and drink, and how health is tied to bandages even when you aren't bleeding.

 

 

 

In my humble opinion, this is a failure on the devs part to understand the core gripe which is that food and drink shouldn't be tied to stamina, but because it is tied to stamina, food and drink should at least not start damaging the stamina pool straight away (at 99% satiated or hydrated). Adding another 50 wasn't the obvious way to solve the problem. The obvious way would have been to lower the point at which the damage starts, for example when you only have 25% left of your food / drink.

 

+1 from me

just makes more sense this way

[RestInPieces]

+1 from me

just makes more sense this way

 

It does, and also showing this with a nice UI element (in a UI that includes hunger/thirst which are imo needed) would be even better.

[jdm311]

It does, and also showing this with a nice UI element (in a UI that includes hunger/thirst which are imo needed) would be even better.

 

Yes please.

[HungryZombie]

I feel like I'm losing my mind sometimes in here. It's like the Twilight Zone sometimes. Like we play different games or something. How was wellness hard to raise at any point in the game? If anything, it was ridiculously easy... to the point where it didn't even matter if the system existed or not. You may as well have just handed out the max. Now, in this sense, it was bad.

 

Don't know what to tell you. Never once in over 2000 hrs of playing have i ever hit max wellness except the time I creative mode'd in vitamins. It took a LOT of vitamins. More than I'd ever find playing.

[Roland]

Roland, with all due respect, I think you are reading what you think I am saying rather than what I am actually saying. Please quote me where I claimed that you can't chop down a tree without resting.

 

Perhaps it was the way you organized and worded your feedback. I read this to mean that what you typed applied to other games but not 7 Days to die. So:

 

Start with a modest pool of Stamina-- Other games but not 7 Days

Enough to chop down a few trees-- Other games but not 7 Days

Grow it with attribute points-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina pool never gimped by effects-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina affected by player action but then immediately refills-- Other games but not 7 Days

 

How most other survival games do it:

 

Stamina

You start out with a modest pool of stamina (but enough to chop a few trees down) and you grow it with attribute points. The pool of stamina is never gimped by any other effects. Your stamina is only affected by you drawing from it to do specific things that require stamina, and then immediately starts to refill when you stop or slow down to a walk.

 

If I interpreted this incorrectly then I apologize. But that is the quote I was referencing.

 

 

In my humble opinion, this is a failure on the devs part to understand the core gripe which is that food and drink shouldn't be tied to stamina, but because it is tied to stamina, food and drink should at least not start damaging the stamina pool straight away (at 99% satiated or hydrated). Adding another 50 wasn't the obvious way to solve the problem. The obvious way would have been to lower the point at which the damage starts, for example when you only have 25% left of your food / drink.

 

The devs didn't fail to understand the gripe that food and drink shouldn't be tied to stamina and integrated into one bar. They just disagree with it. I personally really like the current system and appreciate the fact that I can eat when at 90 and know that none of my food will be wasted. I'm not opposed to the system you propose but it would require separating out the hunger bar from the stamina bar and I know for a fact they are done with the bars. It's not even a topic for discussion any more in the internal chat.

 

So given the current system is THE SYSTEM with hunger and stamina integrated into one bar I think the way they did it works great. You get that delay before your stamina starts to degrade and you get the assurance that none of your meal was wasted because you ate it when you were at 90.

[hotpoon]

Perhaps it was the way you organized and worded your feedback. I read this to mean that what you typed applied to other games but not 7 Days to die. So:

Start with a modest pool of Stamina-- Other games but not 7 Days

Enough to chop down a few trees-- Other games but not 7 Days

Grow it with attribute points-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina pool never gimped by effects-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina affected by player action but then immediately refills-- Other games but not 7 Days

If I interpreted this incorrectly then I apologize. But that is the quote I was referencing.

 

You did interpret it incorrectly, but I can see now how you would think I was implying that, so apologies for creating confusion.

 

Don't know what to tell you. Never once in over 2000 hrs of playing have i ever hit max wellness except the time I creative mode'd in vitamins. It took a LOT of vitamins. More than I'd ever find playing.

 

Me neither (though only 1000 hours played), and I really tried because I wanted that Steam achievement . My husband reached max wellness but then he spent most of his time mining and building so took less risks than me, and he also has about 3000 hours more than me.

[AtomicUs5000]

Don't know what to tell you. Never once in over 2000 hrs of playing have i ever hit max wellness except the time I creative mode'd in vitamins. It took a LOT of vitamins. More than I'd ever find playing.

 

It wasn't just vitamins. Meat Stew, Bacon and Eggs, Blueberry Pie to name a few... not to mention goldenrod tea and red tea. If you could avoid dying and getting sick, max wellness was in the bag. If I had to guess, you probably never reached max wellness because you didn't bother to... it was far from required to play successfully.

 

EDIT: also, if you weren't trying to max out your wellness, it is likely you perked a lot into the hunger and thirst perks... meaning you didn't need to eat or drink much and thus resulting in less chances to increase your wellness. They were tempting perks, but burdens in disguise.

[ColdGate]

Stamina, food, health changes, ok, I understood, new mechanics etc... But why you decided rework beer and coffee buffs??? It was must have and very useful before, but now, in A17 it totally useless... A16 - I may fight all horde night with melee, with few beer cans. Now, in A17 with beer I may few seconds do... nothing! And for melee horde night I need to have tons of perks spended in melee stamina reduction, run stamina reduction, stun chance reduction and other perks for same effect, and on level 120 I may try melee horde fight with some chances to survive...

[RestInPieces]

Stamina, food, health changes, ok, I understood, new mechanics etc... But why you decided rework beer and coffee buffs??? It was must have and very useful before, but now, in A17 it totally useless... A16 - I may fight all horde night with melee, with few beer cans. Now, in A17 with beer I may few seconds do... nothing! And for melee horde night I need to have tons of perks spended in melee stamina reduction, run stamina reduction, stun chance reduction and other perks for same effect, and on level 120 I may try melee horde fight with some chances to survive...

 

-You don't need to be 120 level to get all those perks.

-Coffee and beer should not magic potions that give you infinite stamina etc. It's ridiculous.

-Oh, the woe! Perks are needed, yes that should be fixed!

-Nonsense all around.

[Weazelsun]

I'm thinking if the current stamina = food + water and health = food + first aid. Perhaps, it can be simplified? Have it where stamina = water/ drinks and health = food + first aid. Makes somwhat sense to me since drinks are already tied to stamina regen. Rather than using food to recover the lost stamina, instead combine that into one with drinks. Then just tie health to food, where if you take damage you can still heal it with food, but max hp has to be recovered with medical items.

[Viktoriusiii]

My opinion:

 

Damage and swingspeed should coinside with stamina. (scaling and not instanced)

>75% full dm

>50% 3/4 dmg

>0% 1/4 dmg

0% 1/5 dmg and swingspeed and no heavy attack

 

 

This way even when you are out of stamina, you are not completely helpless and stamina perks do more than just "okay you can hit one more heavy swing before beeing useless"

[mr.devolver]

Usually in similar games when you drain your stamina, it goes back up much faster, so that you don't have to wait forever staring at your screen saying "OUT OF STAMINA" every few seconds. The way it works in 7 days to die doesn't really make the game harder, it's just a nuisance that makes the game boring for those who don't have that much patience to watch the screen literally doing nothing but waiting for stamina to get back up. This aspect of the game is already a meme. Every time I play coop with my niece, she puts a sign on our base which says "OUT OF STAMINA" and when I'm out, scavenging, mining or just fighting zombies, I often tell her: "Sorry, can't go back yet, because OUT OF STAMINA" and every time I tell her "OUT OF STAMINA", she makes that sign bigger. Last time she told me: "Sorry, I can't make that sign any bigger, we are already using the largest one" and I told her: "It's ok, we can use the metal letters this time..."

[n2n1]

Usually in similar games when you drain your stamina, it goes back up much faster, so that you don't have to wait forever staring at your screen saying "OUT OF STAMINA" every few seconds. The way it works in 7 days to die doesn't really make the game harder, it's just a nuisance that makes the game boring for those who don't have that much patience to watch the screen literally doing nothing but waiting for stamina to get back up. This aspect of the game is already a meme. Every time I play coop with my niece, she puts a sign on our base which says "OUT OF STAMINA" and when I'm out, scavenging, mining or just fighting zombies, I often tell her: "Sorry, can't go back yet, because OUT OF STAMINA" and every time I tell her "OUT OF STAMINA", she makes that sign bigger. Last time she told me: "Sorry, I can't make that sign any bigger, we are already using the largest one" and I told her: "It's ok, we can use the metal letters this time..."

:)

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I don't mind difficulties in game. But from difficult to tedious - one step.

[Viktoriusiii]

That moment you realize you should have learned left from right....

 

Roland... I feel sometimes as if you have become a friendlier Gazz

 

Yes the OP was way WAY out of line with the way he wrote stuff, but his point actually has some merit to it.

 

Beeing out of stamina doesn't feel good.

And this is something I have said a lot in the past:

The game is punishing instead of rewarding.

 

Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

17.2 is way WAY better than .0

But the core problem is the inability to do anything while out of stamina.

 

You should be able to do anything but with heavy penalties.

Sprint is 80% slower but still faster than normal walking.

Hits are slower and heavy attacks are blocked.

 

 

But not beeing able do do anything feels bad.

Maybe you can even burn more food/drink while you are out of stamina.

 

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.