Stamina, Health, Food, Water logic, or lack thereof

[Roland]

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

 

No, just standing there waiting for it to come back up is not good or smart gameplay. I never do that and I don’t have the problem the OP describes.

 

This is a classic git gud situation. It’s also one in which turning down the difficulty can help if necessary.

[OzHawkeye]

Roland... I feel sometimes as if you have become a friendlier Gazz

 

Yes the OP was way WAY out of line with the way he wrote stuff, but his point actually has some merit to it.

 

Beeing out of stamina doesn't feel good.

And this is something I have said a lot in the past:

The game is punishing instead of rewarding.

 

Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

 

Well, I do agree with your ultimate point, that a lack of stamina should slow the player down (a lot), but not actually prohibit actions. That's a good point Viktorius. I'd like to see that happen.

 

Still the OP really shot themselves in the foot, it wasn't a post, but a rant, they didn't mention which version of 17 they were using, nor what exactly they were doing (a brand new character making 8 power swings? Yeah, that could drain stamina real quick), so they were just venting I reckon.

[ktr]

Beeing out of stamina doesn't feel good.

And this is something I have said a lot in the past:

The game is punishing instead of rewarding.

 

Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

17.2 is way WAY better than .0

But the core problem is the inability to do anything while out of stamina.

 

You can do something - back away and give stamina a couple of seconds to recharge. I say this as someone who doesn't pay constant attention to stamina even more so in combat. I've seen that out of stamina message pop up at inconvenient times. So I back up. The way I look at it, stamina is a resource in this game that's as vital as bullets, arrows, and the trusty club. Learning how to manage it/taking perks/agility to get more out of it are choices that we can make in order to get the most out of that resource.

 

 

You should be able to do anything but with heavy penalties.

Sprint is 80% slower but still faster than normal walking.

Hits are slower and heavy attacks are blocked.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to this, but I honestly do not think it will solve the complaints. Instead of hearing about being out of stamina, it will be "the penalties for being low on stamina are too harsh". Or "well now I have to take micro breaks to use stamina optimally". The penalties would need to affect everything that consumes stamina, including mining. Just image the outrage that as someone chops down trees/mines boulders that their swings get slower and slower.

 

 

But not beeing able do do anything feels bad.

Maybe you can even burn more food/drink while you are out of stamina.

 

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

 

I suspect that with the revamp of food that's been talked about, we'll likely see other ways to help manage stamina. Personally, I don't find stamina that big of a deal once I get a couple of points in agility. Between a higher stamina, the 150 fed option, red teas, coffee, & vehicles(honestly optional unless you're trying to cover long distances quickly), it gets pretty easy to maintain even in melee, and I am by no means an 'optimizer' except for my base traps

[RestInPieces]

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

 

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. By the effin love of god and all that is holy, for the 100th time, TFP should really introduce options about these kinds of stuff like DP and stamina, instead of backtracking their changes like they did with .0. Preferably a mode that is devoid of basic needs and stamina altogether.

 

Because people who are of this opinion, clearly, by all intents and purposes, do not like the existence of a limiting factor they have to manage, such as stamina. I can respect different tastes, but what I can't respect is not just admitting this right away. Because, unless we play a different game, I can't see how stamina isn't nearly infinite without perks and infinite with perks, meaning that will full perks you can keep using a steel tool forever. These are facts - at least that's what bloody happens in my 17.2 client. Unless of course, people spam power attacks and don't realize that they are not meant to be used as a normal attacks (normal attacks wouldn't exist if that was the case) or just neglect basic needs.

 

I do agree about a *much* slower attack animation, (the 80% slower sprint would be pointless - jogging is free anyway), also forcing you to wait, but still being better than a button not giving you any visual feedback about your character's state, clearly for aesthetic/immersion reasons. But with the stamina of 17.2 even that is pointless.

[jeffrezyah]

I'm with you on this one, RestInPieces.

While i never had an issue with stamina in 17.2 (earlygame you need to be careful and you have to manage your stamina, but lategame it's never empty unless you powerswing your tool/weapon like a moron or - well - sledgehammer but this is fine too), i too would prefer to see some slower/weaker attacks while being low on stamina rather than no attack at all. Not being able to powerattack while low is fine.

[Viktoriusiii]

Yall out here thinking I never played a game in my life

 

I know that I can simply backtrack or simply keep an eye on my stamina.

This is not my point. I AM good. I always played on insane (now I dont because it only speeds up the insane hordenights, but I have them on highest speeds at night and one faster than normal on daytime (so that they are as fast or slightly faster than me when I walk normally)

 

My point is that there will be situations where the average player or the excentrist with faster zombies WILL run out of stamina. This is not something everyone can avoid.

And at THIS POINT, the game is punishing and unfun. THIS is what I'm criticising. I don'T want the game easier. Never wanted that (well silent wolfpacks I want "easier" but thats about it).

 

What I am arguing for is gamefun over punishment.

Yes a 20% sprint still makes a difference.

Yes a bad melee attack with the right perks (because if you don't have the perks you shouldn't melee as its the abolute worst) is still better than just "standing" there waiting for the zombies to hit/circle you.

 

This is also nothing I feel should need an option. As it doesn't make the game easier (if you put the right penalties in). It just gives the player back control over his character.

 

Yes OP was way too agressive. But you ppl somehow think that this is just about difficulty, which it isn't.

It is about the game punishing you for no reason.

 

 

Think if in darksouls there was a trap that can instantly kill you. (although dying there isn't as punishing as in 7d2d keep that in mind that dying is a part of Darksouls but it isnt in 7d2d)

If there is no countermeasure, no indication and no way to avoid it other than either knowing beforehand or blind luck, this trap is instantly no fun at all. It just kills you, you come back and do it again, this time the trap has changed so you are still bound to luck.

 

It punishes you instead of rewarding good preparation.

 

 

A good example in 7d2d would be that old POI compound thing where the main house is clearly burnt and if you rush in, you fall down into water surrounded by zombies.

 

-clear indication (everything beeing burnt)

-trap can be avoided

-even if you didnt you dont instantly break your bones

-you can still sneak/fight your way out depending on what you specced into.

 

A bad example is zombies breaking out of one of the poi walls.

-no indication (literally the worst)

-cant be avoided (except for sneaking or making sounds beforehand)

-they often surround you/cut you off so sneaking wont work and you have little space

 

 

Same with stamina

-clear indication

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

 

 

 

It doesn'T feel fun. That is my main point.

Make the game harder! That is not a problem for me. Give me a fair challenge and I will love it.

Give me unfair unrealistic, punishing cheating A.I. and I will throw away the game because I feel like I play with a hacker.

[xXBadDreamXx]

cue more git gud comments and....obviously you play the game wrong comments.

 

i totally agree with the concept of rewarding smart playing rather than punishing bad playing. people that like the game the way it is are very quick to browbeat people that arent so keen on it however. good luck having any kind of opinion that differs from the vocal minority

[andrewcu]

my suggestion would be to stop using only power attack. Ive never used a single power attack and i have never run out of stamina. problem solved. That or learn to use a good combination of the two.

[RestInPieces]

Yall out here thinking I never played a game in my life

 

Same with stamina

-clear indication

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

 

It doesn'T feel fun. That is my main point.

 

In Dark Souls not knowing many things beforehand means certain death and part of its difficulty relies by learning from your mistakes on a large part - the developers themselves had said that - don't know if it's a good example in this case.

 

Difficulty in general comes in many forms. It can depend not only on "fast reflexes" and quick decisions, but also on strategic decisions, watchful management of resources, game knowledge, even RNG (not decisively however, only with fluctuations), etc.

 

But first of all fun is a very general and subjective term - the general consensus is that punishing the player, without giving him the chance to react at that moment, or prepare AKA punish him without him able to do anything about it, should not happen at any situation, so we agree on that.

 

And it has honestly never happened to me in 7DTD (other than with those silent wolf packs you mention, dogs/wolf packs suck for many reasons). And I am neither a particularly good player nor play on the lower side of difficulty settings.

 

-clear indication

Yes and it could be even more clear.

 

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

A worse player on higher difficulties can lower the difficulty and choose among many options than include zombies never running etc. But EVEN then, how can it not be avoided? I really, honestly, can't see a situation like that. You can swing a steel tool without pause for almost half a minute without perks and pretty much infinitely with just a few perks.

Also, one can avoid it by:

-not spamming power attacks

-not neglecting needs

-using ranged

-fleeing

I don't see how all these are not a matter of the player's own decision-making.

 

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

Your stamina regeneration is instant and very fast so even if there is nothing you can do for... a single second, you can always jog away and not die, ergo the game not punishing you. I've never been in that situation tbh, because I always have to backtrack among melee hits so my stamina doesn't end and always see to that I preserve enough stamina to sprint if zombies are running.

 

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

You can kite a zombie in nightmare speed by hitting and sprinting at intervals with the zombie never hitting you... which is frankly awful, because speed setting were supposed to accommodate different tastes. For example, I want to make zombies at night or during a BM, something you CAN'T possibly flee from. Atm you are perfectly able to flee from them as long as your character isn't debuffed (and you shouldn't pick fights if you are). There is also always an alternative for a ranged attack - if you don't have a gun and need a range attack just make a bow.

 

Finally, keep in mind that they shouldn't balance things for the highest difficulties, but for the default ones. For example, I really want the above zombie speed setting, where you can't actually avoid zombies - this time for real, and it would be ironic if they balanced things around that.

 

i totally agree with the concept of rewarding smart playing rather than punishing bad playing

 

This is a new forum "trope" trending and it sounds totally awesome but is asinine if you think about it. Everyone craves reward, but they don't get that it's the punishment that makes the reward. Without what you call "punishment", any situation that was "neutral" slowly starts to be perceived as punishment, and then the feeling of reward can only eventually turn into indifference. Sure, you can make players view it more like rewarding them with what they didn't have, rather than punishing them by taking what they had, but it is really a matter of perspective.

[Roland]

Yall out here thinking I never played a game in my life

 

I know that I can simply backtrack or simply keep an eye on my stamina.

This is not my point. I AM good. I always played on insane (now I dont because it only speeds up the insane hordenights, but I have them on highest speeds at night and one faster than normal on daytime (so that they are as fast or slightly faster than me when I walk normally)

 

My point is that there will be situations where the average player or the excentrist with faster zombies WILL run out of stamina. This is not something everyone can avoid.

And at THIS POINT, the game is punishing and unfun. THIS is what I'm criticising. I don'T want the game easier. Never wanted that (well silent wolfpacks I want "easier" but thats about it).

 

What I am arguing for is gamefun over punishment.

Yes a 20% sprint still makes a difference.

Yes a bad melee attack with the right perks (because if you don't have the perks you shouldn't melee as its the abolute worst) is still better than just "standing" there waiting for the zombies to hit/circle you.

 

This is also nothing I feel should need an option. As it doesn't make the game easier (if you put the right penalties in). It just gives the player back control over his character.

 

Yes OP was way too agressive. But you ppl somehow think that this is just about difficulty, which it isn't.

It is about the game punishing you for no reason.

 

 

Think if in darksouls there was a trap that can instantly kill you. (although dying there isn't as punishing as in 7d2d keep that in mind that dying is a part of Darksouls but it isnt in 7d2d)

If there is no countermeasure, no indication and no way to avoid it other than either knowing beforehand or blind luck, this trap is instantly no fun at all. It just kills you, you come back and do it again, this time the trap has changed so you are still bound to luck.

 

It punishes you instead of rewarding good preparation.

 

 

A good example in 7d2d would be that old POI compound thing where the main house is clearly burnt and if you rush in, you fall down into water surrounded by zombies.

 

-clear indication (everything beeing burnt)

-trap can be avoided

-even if you didnt you dont instantly break your bones

-you can still sneak/fight your way out depending on what you specced into.

 

A bad example is zombies breaking out of one of the poi walls.

-no indication (literally the worst)

-cant be avoided (except for sneaking or making sounds beforehand)

-they often surround you/cut you off so sneaking wont work and you have little space

 

 

Same with stamina

-clear indication

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

 

 

 

It doesn'T feel fun. That is my main point.

Make the game harder! That is not a problem for me. Give me a fair challenge and I will love it.

Give me unfair unrealistic, punishing cheating A.I. and I will throw away the game because I feel like I play with a hacker.

 

It doesn't feel good when I run out of bullets. It's so punishing to have to sit and wait and not use my rifle until I can get more bullets in my inventory. TFP should introduce good game design by letting us fire our rifles even without bullets but just for less damage. Plus, to have to wait and repair a rifle that is broken is such a punishment-based design. Once rifles break and are out of bullets we should always be able to continuously fire them and at least do a little bit of ranged damage to zombies because anything other than that is UNFUN!

 

It feels so terrible when I'm out of Dukes and the trader is showing me all this stuff I want. When we are out of Dukes we should be able to still buy stuff from the trader if we want to so we don't have to wait until we get more Dukes. Maybe it is just low quality stuff but we should get it for free because waiting for stuff just sucks and games are meant to be fun.

 

Man, when I'm out of food it really is a tedious process to wait until I get more food before I can eat. If TFP knew what they were doing they would let us eat even when we are out of food. Maybe our fullness just goes up by a little bit but at least we can keep it moving up and have the rewarding feeling of seeing our max stamina increase all the time instead of having to wait to be able to do it until we have more food. To punish us by making us stop doing what we want to be doing and go out and either scavenge, or farm, or hunt is just an incredibly punishing design.

 

Come on Madmole! I'm a builder and I want to be able to constantly feel the fun and rewarding gameplay of building but sometimes I am out of materials and then I am forced to stop the gameplay I love. That is real bad game design. We should be able to continue to make blocks even when we have no materials left in our inventories. Why should I be punished to go spend tedious amounts of time gathering more materials when all I want to do is build. And don't tell me to use the creative menu. That is just a super mean thing to say on the forums. Maybe it could just take a bit longer to craft or maybe the blocks are weaker until you upgrade them later but to just make us stop crafting when we are depleted of mats sucks and if anyone tells me that I'm not playing right or should learn more about how to play they are just a spiteful troll and a TFP fanboi!

 

<looks around and sees all the Millennials nodding excitedly....>

[Roland]

cue more git gud comments and....obviously you play the game wrong comments.

 

Sometimes they are actually warranted. Today is such a day.

[Damocles]

As I've expressed before: make as many gameplay-element optional (like stamina drain, food usage, death penalty etc)

 

BUT: anytime a user deactivates a default restriction to make it easier/more convenient, display a hardcoded watermark in the top left corner that says:

 

"BABY MODE"

 

(Everyone can set up the game as he likes, but If a user does not want to see that message, he must play with the default as intended..., everyone is happy then)

[Guppycur]

No, just standing there waiting for it to come back up is not good or smart gameplay. I never do that and I don’t have the problem the OP describes.

 

This is a classic git gud situation. It’s also one in which turning down the difficulty can help if necessary.

 

To be fair if it's not fun it's not fun.

 

Games are supposed to be fun. Vik's suggestion would be fun.

[Viktoriusiii]

Apples are fruit! Tomatoes are fruit. Apples are sweet. Therefor Tomatoes are sweet.

 

Not how it works roland.

Having a gun ammo/dukes/food/building materials are all things you can stock up on.

 

On day 14 I usually have near endless ammo/food/building materials (dukes are now harder to get by but can be shached as well)

Stamina doesn'T work like this.

Back in the day medkits needed blood which you could remove from yourself making health one of those ressources you could stock up on.

But there is no way to do the same if I am not mistaken, Can I? Can I still get instant stamina from drinking goldenrod and so on?

If so my point is somewhat (not completely) mute. But I feel like this got removed as well. The only thing is coffee but that only increases staminaregen but if you are "blocked" due to heavy swing...

 

 

Again roland: there is a difference between rewarding challenges and punishing ones.

 

If I stock up on 14000 dukes I can get that AK with 6 mods on day 7. This is rewarding.

If I fall down in a seemingly stable concrete building for no reason without a warning, losing 70 hp and breaking my bone, that is punishing.

 

There is a difference Roland I am sorry.

[Roland]

To be fair if it's not fun it's not fun.

 

Games are supposed to be fun. Vik's suggestion would be fun.

 

To be fair, it’s not fun for him. I think that combat is more fun with stamina management that actually is meaningful. I think the game is more fun if I can shift from weakness to strength. I’d be willing to try his suggestion to see if it was more fun for me but his whole philosophy reeks of “ I want zero consequences”.

 

First they said “stamina management makes sense for combat because it could create interesting situations if not managed well but it makes no sense for harvesting since the rock or tree isn’t going to attack back”

 

TFP complied.

 

Now (like a camel with its nose in the tent) they want to remove stamina management from combat. As far as I’m concerned they can mod their own bland Godmode-esque creative menu-ish style of zero consequence and zero strategy arcade game into existence.

 

That’s what these suggestions reek of— arcade game.

[Viktoriusiii]

To be fair, it’s not fun for him. I think that combat is more fun with stamina management that actually is meaningful. I think the game is more fun if I can shift from weakness to strength. I’d be willing to try his suggestion to see if it was more fun for me but his whole philosophy reeks of “ I want zero consequences”.

 

I want consequences.

I feel like sometimes you read my posts projecting your opinion of me into it.

 

Consequences are great. If I don't build a base, I should have the hardest hordenight ever.

That is a great consequence.

 

"You pressed a hard hit to get that zombie off you, now suffer for multiple seconds where you can't do a thing" is not.

I even said in my original argument "make swings slower, hit for less damage and use more food/water"

Those are consequences that mean something.

And if you already deal less damage and swing slower way before 0 it has even more consequences and a high stamina pool is even more important.

 

I give you an example:

 

TFPs disable backtracking while holding a weapon.

I say "make backtracking slower, but still possible because beeing handicapped like this feels unimmersive and unfun"

 

And you tell me that I want no consequences. And that I can simply switch the slots and backtrack again.

 

 

 

It is not the same. I want consequences. But fair ones that make sense and don't punish me. (there is a difference between punish and punish; killing me instantly with no way out is punishing, making a loud sound alarming zombies around me is also punishing but way more fair and managable)

[Reth]

Maybe slightly off topic, but no more than the rest of the replies.

 

I've been playing Rimworld a lot lately and I have to say that it handles the challenge the right way.

 

For those unfamiliar with the game, Rimworld is an insanely challenging base builder. Its learning curve is beyond what human beings should be subjected to. You can't avoid death and destruction. Period. It is unfair, brutal and stupidly random. Just when you thought you got your defenses set, your enemies drop in the middle of your base and start tearing it apart. Just when you thought you had enough food to last a few weeks you get hit with a solar flare and it all rots in your freezer. And so on.

 

And yet after all is said and done and half of your colonists are dead or dying, your base lies in ruins and chances of recovery are slim, you don't think "this game design is a stupid, I quit", you think "where did I screw up and what should I have done differently" as you start your base from scratch.

[Guppycur]

THAT stamina management implementation isn't fun. Vik's sounds great.

 

Was just chatting with Haid'RGna about it and we think it's doable.

 

Now to just find an XML guru with free time...

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Oh, and Roland, you suffer from what Jax does... You see only on or off. You don't see "could be this way".

[RestInPieces]

Maybe slightly off topic, but no more than the rest of the replies.

 

I've been playing Rimworld a lot lately and I have to say that it handles the challenge the right way.

 

For those unfamiliar with the game, Rimworld is an insanely challenging base builder. Its learning curve is beyond what human beings should be subjected to. You can't avoid death and destruction. Period. It is unfair, brutal and stupidly random. Just when you thought you got your defenses set, your enemies drop in the middle of your base and start tearing it apart. Just when you thought you had enough food to last a few weeks you get hit with a solar flare and it all rots in your freezer. And so on.

 

And yet after all is said and done and half of your colonists are dead or dying, your base lies in ruins and chances of recovery are slim, you don't think "this game design is a stupid, I quit", you think "where did I screw up and what should I have done differently" as you start your base from scratch.

 

Play Dwarf Fortress casual!

[Roland]

Not how it works roland.

Having a gun ammo/dukes/food/building materials are all things you can stock up on.

 

On day 14 I usually have near endless ammo/food/building materials (dukes are now harder to get by but can be shached as well)

Stamina doesn'T work like this.

Back in the day medkits needed blood which you could remove from yourself making health one of those ressources you could stock up on.

But there is no way to do the same if I am not mistaken, Can I? Can I still get instant stamina from drinking goldenrod and so on?

If so my point is somewhat (not completely) mute. But I feel like this got removed as well. The only thing is coffee but that only increases staminaregen but if you are "blocked" due to heavy swing...

 

 

Again roland: there is a difference between rewarding challenges and punishing ones.

 

If I stock up on 14000 dukes I can get that AK with 6 mods on day 7. This is rewarding.

If I fall down in a seemingly stable concrete building for no reason without a warning, losing 70 hp and breaking my bone, that is punishing.

 

There is a difference Roland I am sorry.

 

It is how it works. You can stock up on stamina to the tune of 200 stamina points and huge gains in stamina regeneration and huge reductions in stamina costs. You struggle and survive in the game to earn the stockpile of stamina that makes you feel unstoppable. Some people will want to spend their points on this first and some will be fine with spending their points elsewhere and getting to the point of "fully loaded" stamina more gradually. But most would agree that in a game that is not Serious Sam, that takes longer than Day 1.

 

You don't rant and complain in the forums to try and get unstoppable stamina on day 1 in the game. You could've had the stockpile of stamina you desire by this time if you spent this amount of time in the game doing the rewarding activity of actually earning that stockpile.

 

Like I said, I am not plagued at all by standing around and waiting for minutes before chopping or mining or killing zombies. I have a strategy that helps me manage my stamina and it works well and it is fun. Yes, there are times when I mismanage and I have to wait--- for seconds. And I am never unable to move away and keep out of reach of zombies unless I encumbered myself to death or do something stupid that I blame myself for.

[Roland]

THAT stamina management implementation isn't fun. Vik's sounds great.

 

Was just chatting with Haid'RGna about it and we think it's doable.

 

Now to just find an XML guru with free time...

 

Excellent. Exactly what I suggested.

 

 

Oh, and Roland, you suffer from what Jax does... You see only on or off. You don't see "could be this way".

 

Perhaps.... But don't be so sure you have me completely pegged. hahaha

[SnowDog1942]

It doesn't feel good when I run out of bullets. It's so punishing to have to sit and wait and not use my rifle until I can get more bullets in my inventory. TFP should introduce good game design by letting us fire our rifles even without bullets but just for less damage. Plus, to have to wait and repair a rifle that is broken is such a punishment-based design. Once rifles break and are out of bullets we should always be able to continuously fire them and at least do a little bit of ranged damage to zombies because anything other than that is UNFUN!

 

It feels so terrible when I'm out of Dukes and the trader is showing me all this stuff I want. When we are out of Dukes we should be able to still buy stuff from the trader if we want to so we don't have to wait until we get more Dukes. Maybe it is just low quality stuff but we should get it for free because waiting for stuff just sucks and games are meant to be fun.

 

Man, when I'm out of food it really is a tedious process to wait until I get more food before I can eat. If TFP knew what they were doing they would let us eat even when we are out of food. Maybe our fullness just goes up by a little bit but at least we can keep it moving up and have the rewarding feeling of seeing our max stamina increase all the time instead of having to wait to be able to do it until we have more food. To punish us by making us stop doing what we want to be doing and go out and either scavenge, or farm, or hunt is just an incredibly punishing design.

 

Come on Madmole! I'm a builder and I want to be able to constantly feel the fun and rewarding gameplay of building but sometimes I am out of materials and then I am forced to stop the gameplay I love. That is real bad game design. We should be able to continue to make blocks even when we have no materials left in our inventories. Why should I be punished to go spend tedious amounts of time gathering more materials when all I want to do is build. And don't tell me to use the creative menu. That is just a super mean thing to say on the forums. Maybe it could just take a bit longer to craft or maybe the blocks are weaker until you upgrade them later but to just make us stop crafting when we are depleted of mats sucks and if anyone tells me that I'm not playing right or should learn more about how to play they are just a spiteful troll and a TFP fanboi!

 

<looks around and sees all the Millennials nodding excitedly....>

 

Best...post...ever..

[Roland]

My opinion:

 

Damage and swingspeed should coinside with stamina. (scaling and not instanced)

>75% full dm

>50% 3/4 dmg

>0% 1/4 dmg

0% 1/5 dmg and swingspeed and no heavy attack

 

 

This way even when you are out of stamina, you are not completely helpless and stamina perks do more than just "okay you can hit one more heavy swing before beeing useless"

 

To be fair again this IS an interesting suggestion. But I'm not sure I would like it if it was implemented and it wouldn't stop posts by others who are NOT-VIK who would complain that zombies feel like damage sponges again because the reduced hit damage makes every battle drawn out and long. People would keep swinging and swinging and never take time to recover because they can just keep swinging and they wouldn't be appreciative that they could keep swinging they would want zombie hp reduced and be annoyed at the slower swing speed.

 

Proof: Instead of making it so that stone axes would just not work at all against gun safes TFP allowed them to chip away albeit very very slowly. They figured the safes would be things the player would find, realize they would need to come back to do once properly equipped, and think it cool that there were things in the world beyond their initial ability that they would have to remember to revisit once they were more powerful.

 

NOPE

 

People would sit in front of those safes for 10 minutes chipping away with their brown stone axes and then complaining on the forum that the stone axe was too weak and breaking into safes was UNFUN. Did a single person thank TFP for the rewarding experience of letting them do it if they wanted to but at a lower capacity instead of just making it impossible? No. When it was suggested that they wait to break into the safe until they had better equipment they sobbed that people were telling them it was their problem instead of the game design.

 

So, I think your idea has enough merit for Guppy to get a mod of it and I'll give it a try. But I have misgivings on how it will be received by others and for myself-- because I manage my stamina well I am rewarded with 100% dmg for every hit no matter how low my stamina bar is. I don't know how fun it would be for me to start doing 75% then 25% and then 20% and swing slower when through strategy I don't have to suffer that now.

 

And when it comes down to it you would still need to stop and rest to get back up to 100% dmg. Right now with a wooden club on day 1 I can put a zombie down in 3-5 hits while managing my stamina. With your method no matter how I manage it my dps will drop and 3-5 hits per zombie will change to a lot more.

[Dimpy]

To be fair again this IS an interesting suggestion....

 

Yeah. I agree. Not that hard to fix though: simply scale the stamina usage along with the damage output so you use less stamina when at low stamina.

[Roland]