Stamina, Health, Food, Water logic, or lack thereof

[AtomicUs5000]

I'm for stamina damage and any of those other things listed above being able to be damaged (or even threatened) but it will probably have to be a mod that pushes this game into actually being in the survival genre. Right now it's a shooter/tower defense game with survival elements and loud voices are kicking and screaming against those elements every time they are shifted ever so slightly away from the shooter genre and towards the survival genre.

 

Like I always say, Roland, survival is on the bubble.

[mr.devolver]

Stamina in 17.0 sure i can see the complaints but in 17.2? Now we are just nitpicking.

 

Tell it to a new player who will be discouraged on day one because he doesn't know how to play and the game doesn't really teach him and even if he learned, he still may dislike how fast he loses his stamina or that he must spend so many extra points in respective categories and as soon as he gets that stamina category up, he will realize that he doesn't need it anymore, because he might as well craft vehicles to avoid running out of stamina every few meters.

 

Surely I'm not the only one who feels like running is necessary evil or rather a nuisance throughout the whole game which constantly makes the player push forward to get a vehicle as soon as possible and it distracts them from other goals. Being unable to run decent distances is inevitably a part of the artificial prolongation of the game which was introduced in Alpha 17 and it's one of those not so welcomed changes...

[mr.devolver]

If not which perk will help me to run around longer without having to use "chemical enhancements"

 

Sexual T-Rex used to help with running, but not anymore. Now there's no skill which would help you regenerate stamina while running. The only thing you can do is put more points into stamina itself so that you can run for a little longer, but honestly the gain with every level is so small that you won't really see the difference.

[SnowDog1942]

Sexual T-Rex used to help with running, but not anymore. Now there's no skill which would help you regenerate stamina while running. The only thing you can do is put more points into stamina itself so that you can run for a little longer, but honestly the gain with every level is so small that you won't really see the difference.

 

Rule 1: Cardio.

[mr.devolver]

Rule 1: Cardio.

 

Same deal, 10% gain. You won't even notice that.

[SnowDog1942]

Same deal, 10% gain. You won't even notice that.

 

One rank.. not too much, several ranks , night and day

[Lanadon Conners]

[Captnrex]

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hey he did take a breather while doing it

[JaxTeller718]

Tell it to a new player who will be discouraged on day one because he doesn't know how to play and the game doesn't really teach him and even if he learned, he still may dislike how fast he loses his stamina or that he must spend so many extra points in respective categories and as soon as he gets that stamina category up, he will realize that he doesn't need it anymore, because he might as well craft vehicles to avoid running out of stamina every few meters.

 

Surely I'm not the only one who feels like running is necessary evil or rather a nuisance throughout the whole game which constantly makes the player push forward to get a vehicle as soon as possible and it distracts them from other goals. Being unable to run decent distances is inevitably a part of the artificial prolongation of the game which was introduced in Alpha 17 and it's one of those not so welcomed changes...

 

Im not a new player, nor will I or can I speak for them. I am not ON the development team so this means my suggestions or feelings do not have to reflect me roleplaying a "new player".

 

I never run from anything. I know people will roll their eyes at that statement but my play style is just different than others so i can only speak for how I experience the game while I am in it.

 

I LOVE micro managing stamina and food and water. I wish it were more punishing, and that is ok. I am allowed to feel that way, just as much as you are allowed to feel how you do. Gameplay to me is more engaging when I have to critically think and make choices. The second I can do something on auto pilot it bores me.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Sexual T-Rex used to help with running, but not anymore. Now there's no skill which would help you regenerate stamina while running.

 

Really think about what you just wrote.

[jerseyetr]

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This is Gold

[HungryZombie]

Tell it to a new player who will be discouraged on day one because he doesn't know how to play and the game doesn't really teach him and even if he learned, he still may dislike how fast he loses his stamina or that he must spend so many extra points in respective categories and as soon as he gets that stamina category up, he will realize that he doesn't need it anymore, because he might as well craft vehicles to avoid running out of stamina every few meters.

 

Surely I'm not the only one who feels like running is necessary evil or rather a nuisance throughout the whole game which constantly makes the player push forward to get a vehicle as soon as possible and it distracts them from other goals. Being unable to run decent distances is inevitably a part of the artificial prolongation of the game which was introduced in Alpha 17 and it's one of those not so welcomed changes...

 

Those sorts of gamers don't play survival type game I don't think and 7dtd is probably the easiest of the survival genre.

[RipClaw]

Those sorts of gamers don't play survival type game I don't think and 7dtd is probably the easiest of the survival genre.

 

Many players may come to games via Youtube videos and Twitch Streams. But you usually don't see much of "survival" but more of killing zombies and building bases. And people don't really care what the description of a game says.

 

I came to this game via Youtube videos myself. That was still at the time of Alpha 15. Since I started in the middle of the season, I didn't notice the initial difficulties. The start was very rough for me because of this lack of knowledge. Therefore I can understand the argument of mr.devolver very well.

[meganoth]

Sure, I understand. You have to understand though, that me pointing out that it could be easy was in response to a dev claiming it was difficult and using that as a basis to why it was bad... and therefore removed.

 

Probably Gazz meant the general case, i.e. "difficult in normal gameplay for "normal" players". I consider myself a somewhat experienced player (meaning more or less >>100 hours in the game and knowing most stuff by heart). In A16 I always stopped at 130-140 HPs (if memory serves me right) because eventually a death put me back the 10 points I aquired over the last alive streak. And my death rate was less than once a week and probably novice players will on average be far above that.

 

Generally you can calculate a HP limit simply from the average time between deaths (if you don't specifically force feed yourself).

[jdm311]

I feel there is something missing to the stamina usage mechanic. Each weapon/tool has a weight along with a corresponding cost of stamina to use it. As you increase your strength, that stamina cost should go down.

[AtomicUs5000]

Probably Gazz meant the general case, i.e. "difficult in normal gameplay for "normal" players". I consider myself a somewhat experienced player (meaning more or less >>100 hours in the game and knowing most stuff by heart). In A16 I always stopped at 130-140 HPs (if memory serves me right) because eventually a death put me back the 10 points I aquired over the last alive streak. And my death rate was less than once a week and probably novice players will on average be far above that.

Generally you can calculate a HP limit simply from the average time between deaths (if you don't specifically force feed yourself).

 

Yeah, maybe. I am unsure, but maybe I am looking at it too narrowly. For me, when I play any survival game, I immediate identify my threats and take note of what things help eliminate them. It’s such an automatic thing for me, that perhaps I am assuming that even casual players will do this. I have a hard time imagining otherwise in this case.

Before, it was basically eat good food and don’t die which is more than reasonable and understandable in survival. Would a new player now fully understand what can be done to improve? Probably not, because I’m not even sure you can say that such a thing exists. It’s basically hope you spent your points right in your first game.

[hotpoon]

It's one thing to bitch and moan, but another to try and give useful suggestions, so I've been thinking about a way to solve the problems I've outlined in my O.P. and I have a suggestion I would love feedback on. There are some critical thinkers in this thread that could maybe highlight problems with it, but if we work on it together, we can perfect it and then ask @Roland to fly it up the flag pole and see what the Pimps think.

 

First, a summary of the current issues:

 

• The incestuous relationship between stamina, health, food, water, and death penalty is unnecessarily complex and difficult to display in the hud in a way that makes it obvious for people who don't like to read forums.
  
• With the removal of the wellness system, there is no incentive to spec points into cooking or spend time preparing higher tier food.
  
• Lots of people have been nagging for a return of LBD (I know this point seems unrelated, but wait for it).
  

 

Proposed solution:

 

MadMole often rails against LBD without a compelling argument, but recently he posted this which I think is the most articulate he's ever been on the subject. Later in the same thread, he admitted to really enjoying GTA San Andreas, which has an LBD system. You start out skinny, and you have to go to gym to buff out. The key difference is that it also has RBND (regress by not doing) - if you don't go to gym, you lose muscle mass, and if you eat too much you start to get pudgy.

 

I think we could successfully apply the 'Learn By Doing' together with the 'Regress By Not Doing' system to 7 Days' stamina, health, food and water challenge.

 

• You start the game with a base line health and stamina cap where you are neither super healthy/fit, nor are you super unhealthy/unfit. Let's say 75 points.
  
• By running around and doing combat, you slowly raise your max stamina. Let's say up to 150 points.
  
• By using vehicles or being sedentary, your max stamina slowly shrinks. Let's say down to 25 points.
  
• By eating higher tier food, you slowly raise your max health. Let's say up to 150 points
  
• By subsisting on low tier food, your max health slowly shrinks. Let's say down to 25 points.
  

 

This should be a very slow progression and regression, not something that fluctuates wildly - otherwise it feels like micromanaging.

There should also be subtle visual cues on screen when your health/stamina grows or shrinks. It's been a while since I played GTA:SA, but if I recall it would briefly and unobtrusively pop on the screen.

 

Furthermore:

• Running around and doing combat should drain food and water faster.
  
• Using vehicles or being sedentary should hardly drain food and water, or not at all (like how it is at present I believe).
  
• When you actually start starving or dehydrating (food or water falls to zero), you rapidly take max stamina and max health damage, until it reaches the min cap of 25, and then you rapidly lose the rest of your health points and die.
  
• When you re animate, your max health and stamina levels are set to the lowest (25), and you have to work at increasing it again.
  
• For those that prefer the Suvival-Lite version (as @RestInPieces puts it), there could be a setting to raise the min to 75, so that you never fall below the starting base-line.
  

 

Comments? Suggestions?

[Roland]

I will forbear making any comments regarding this but simply will state that I stand ready and at attention next to my flagpole.

[AtomicUs5000]

I would be on board for something like that.

The only thing that I can think of that might be problematic is that you say that these things should happen very slowly. I would fear that for players who managed to get down to 25 of something, it would take too long to recover from that... or that maybe would even block you from being able to recover from it. Then let's say you couldn't fix yourself, so you die. Now you come back with 25 again in your stats and you end up in the same boat and in this cycle of death and more death. If the increase happens faster than the decrease, it might help to prevent this. Then again, I'm just guessing at this potential problem. It is really hard to know exactly how this would play out, especially when you don't know exactly the rates of change or other factors such as the availability of higher quality nutrition when you start out. Are better recipes still blocked by skill in this scenario?

[hotpoon]

I will forbear making any comments regarding this but simply will state that I stand ready and at attention next to my flagpole.

 

Lol! You are one of the critical thinkers whose opinion would be welcome.

 

I would be on board for something like that.

The only thing that I can think of that might be problematic is that you say that these things should happen very slowly. I would fear that for players who managed to get down to 25 of something, it would take too long to recover from that... or that maybe would even block you from being able to recover from it. Then let's say you couldn't fix yourself, so you die. Now you come back with 25 again in your stats and you end up in the same boat and in this cycle of death and more death. If the increase happens faster than the decrease, it might help to prevent this. Then again, I'm just guessing at this potential problem. It is really hard to know exactly how this would play out, especially when you don't know exactly the rates of change or other factors such as the availability of higher quality nutrition when you start out. Are better recipes still blocked by skill in this scenario?

 

Good point, I could imagine some wailing and gnashing of teeth over that.

Perhaps it should be fairly quick to raise your health and stamina back up to the baseline of 75 (or even 50) but then slows down trying to raise it above that?

[ktr]

It's one thing to bitch and moan, but another to try and give useful suggestions, so I've been thinking about a way to solve the problems I've outlined in my O.P. and I have a suggestion I would love feedback on. There are some critical thinkers in this thread that could maybe highlight problems with it, but if we work on it together, we can perfect it and then ask @Roland to fly it up the flag pole and see what the Pimps think.

 

First, a summary of the current issues:

 

• The incestuous relationship between stamina, health, food, water, and death penalty is unnecessarily complex and difficult to display in the hud in a way that makes it obvious for people who don't like to read forums.
  
• With the removal of the wellness system, there is no incentive to spec points into cooking or spend time preparing higher tier food.
  
• Lots of people have been nagging for a return of LBD (I know this point seems unrelated, but wait for it).
  

 

1.) I don't think the system is unnecessarily complex. I do think that for people who have played the game prior to A17, it was a massive change that wasn't easy to digest. My thinking on this comes from people that I play with who played the game rarely before or hadn't played at all. They didn't have nearly so difficult a time adjusting to the system as those of us on the same server who played regularly. I do believe that's important to keep in mind because a HUD redesign is much easier than a complete mechanic overhaul

2.) I mostly agree - bacon and eggs are all you really need though I do find the 'soups' have their uses and convinces as well. They're just not as standout as bacon and eggs.

3.) Full disclosure - I have no issue with LBD as a system concept, but I don't think it's the must have either.

 

 

Proposed solution:

 

MadMole often rails against LBD without a compelling argument, but recently he posted this which I think is the most articulate he's ever been on the subject. Later in the same thread, he admitted to really enjoying GTA San Andreas, which has an LBD system. You start out skinny, and you have to go to gym to buff out. The key difference is that it also has RBND (regress by not doing) - if you don't go to gym, you lose muscle mass, and if you eat too much you start to get pudgy.

 

I would be careful here in saying that he has no compelling argument. His reasons for it have been pretty direct and on point about LBD's pitfalls as a system. People may not agree with those reasons or find those reasons to be lacking from their perspective, but having seen the back and forth discussion on LBD on this board, I doubt any die hard fan of that kind of system is going to accept any argument as good enough to convince them otherwise. Just my pennies on that, not an attempt to bring up the great LBD debate again.

 

 

On to the rest --- snipping out the pieces I don't have a direct comment on.

 

By running around and doing combat, you slowly raise your max stamina. Let's say up to 150 points.

 

What do you mean here by "by running around" specifically? Is it literally just running or does including building, stealthing, gathering, and perhaps crafting? As with any system, the devil here will always be in the details. My first blush thought is that gathering definitely needs to be included along with basic walking. In my group I spend A LOT of time raiding and I don't engage in combat (by combat do you mean melee? Bows? Guns? Will all of those activities, if included, be treated equally?) unless I absolutely have to do so. Another person in my group prefers to gather and build.

 

By using vehicles or being sedentary, your max stamina slowly shrinks. Let's say down to 25 points.

 

Depends on how sedentary will be defined (crafting? building? just staying in one spot? Are you including bicycles with the rest of the vehicles?) and the duration before a penalty kicks in (in game hours? days?) The measurement here will be key because vehicles are a great liberator in the game and opens up the world to the characters along with additional storage benefits. If I can't drive around and explore the map (I usually play on the big ones) without losing stamina, I probably won't be a huge fan. It also feels like it's penalizing the player for climbing the tech ladder and being able to craft and use these things that I've spent a lot of time (and points) to gain access to.

 

The next section I won't have too many (probably) comments on because I do think the success or failure here really depends on duration and definitions.

 

When you actually start starving or dehydrating (food or water falls to zero), you rapidly take max stamina and max health damage, until it reaches the min cap of 25, and then you rapidly lose the rest of your health points and die.

 

Overheating and freezing probably need to be accounted for in here as well.

 

When you re animate, your max health and stamina levels are set to the lowest (25), and you have to work at increasing it again.

 

Here is what I think might be weakest piece. 25 is not a lot of health and could very easily lock a player into a 'death spiral' which would then only encourage them to stay in their bases, running into a wall while periodically eating and drinking to get their health back up again. This might be the place to work in medical supplies as a way to help them boost health to a more acceptable level. A quick boost back to 75 if they have the med supplies.

 

 

Generally:

 

This system could be a fun thing (perhaps not in 7d2d, perhaps as a mod, perhaps another game) depending on the exact relationships between all of these things.

 

What exact activities will count as being active? Which ones are sedentary? Will all of them be treated the same in their own category (raising or lowering stamina or health)? Will all of them be treated the same relative to each other (will running be just as effective at raising stamina as driving is at lowering it)?

 

The other part that will need careful defining is the intent. Is this system going to compliment the slow (relatively speaking) crawl from the stone age to (potentially) some level of dominance over the harsh and unforgiving apocalypse? Is the aim to have characters really struggle at first or to have it more background (important but not a big limiting factor)? The answers to those question will really change the potential tuning.

[RipClaw]

1.) I don't think the system is unnecessarily complex. I do think that for people who have played the game prior to A17, it was a massive change that wasn't easy to digest. My thinking on this comes from people that I play with who played the game rarely before or hadn't played at all. They didn't have nearly so difficult a time adjusting to the system as those of us on the same server who played regularly. I do believe that's important to keep in mind because a HUD redesign is much easier than a complete mechanic overhaul

 

What I don't like about the system in A17 is that it's 1 to 1 tied to the food. I see the whole thing from the perspective of a casual player trying to transfer his experiences from the real world to the game. If you haven't eaten all day in the real world, you still have no less stamina. It takes some time until your stamina drops due to lack of food. Therefore it would be more appropriate that the stamina only begins to sink when the hunger has reached a certain point.

 

At the moment I am helping myself with the SimpleUI Mod. It shows me much more information than the standard HUD.

 

2.) I mostly agree - bacon and eggs are all you really need though I do find the 'soups' have their uses and convinces as well. They're just not as standout as bacon and eggs.

 

I guess you mean the meat stew, the vegetable stew and the hobbo stew. Personally, I think bacon and eggs are overrated.

It's the best food in the early game. But if you have a sufficiently large garden the vegetable stew is better in the long run because you plant the ingredients yourself.

[hotpoon]

What do you mean here by "by running around" specifically? Is it literally just running or does including building, stealthing, gathering, and perhaps crafting? As with any system, the devil here will always be in the details. My first blush thought is that gathering definitely needs to be included along with basic walking. In my group I spend A LOT of time raiding and I don't engage in combat (by combat do you mean melee? Bows? Guns? Will all of those activities, if included, be treated equally?) unless I absolutely have to do so. Another person in my group prefers to gather and build.

 

Depends on how sedentary will be defined (crafting? building? just staying in one spot? Are you including bicycles with the rest of the vehicles?)

 

Good questions. I'm thinking 'running around' should include physical activities that make you sweat in real life: so running, walking, riding a bicycle, building, melee combat. Sneaking around would certainly be a calf work out, so that could be included. I probably would not include shooting guns, bows, or crafting. Was that more or less your thinking?

 

and the duration before a penalty kicks in (in game hours? days?) The measurement here will be key because vehicles are a great liberator in the game and opens up the world to the characters along with additional storage benefits. If I can't drive around and explore the map (I usually play on the big ones) without losing stamina, I probably won't be a huge fan. It also feels like it's penalizing the player for climbing the tech ladder and being able to craft and use these things that I've spent a lot of time (and points) to gain access to.

 

In terms of actual numbers, I think that is something that would need testing, but I would imagine maybe half an in-game day for a point to go up or down based on activities performed (or not) during that time. It might work best that the points take quicker or longer depending on how many you have:

• If you have less than 75 points, it could award you more readily and be slower to punish. This makes it easier to get back to the baseline of 75.
  
• If you have more than 75 points, it could award and punish at the same rate of 1 point per half an in-game day. Nice and slow so it's not a stress but it's not piss easy for you to max out your points.
  

 

Overheating and freezing probably need to be accounted for in here as well.

I think heatstroke should cause liquid to go down rapidly, and freezing should cause food to go down rapidly. Is that enough of a punishment or do you think: damage to health points at high severity?

 

Here is what I think might be weakest piece. 25 is not a lot of health and could very easily lock a player into a 'death spiral' which would then only encourage them to stay in their bases, running into a wall while periodically eating and drinking to get their health back up again. This might be the place to work in medical supplies as a way to help them boost health to a more acceptable level. A quick boost back to 75 if they have the med supplies.

 

I think the system more readily awarding them points and less frequently punishing them while they are below the baseline of 75 would help alleviate this, but your idea of med supplies might work too. On the other hand, the survival-lite version (where points never regress below baseline) is probably a setting a lot of whiny people (including me) would use. Whereas, RestInPieces, who loves his death penalties would go for the actual system.

 

The other part that will need careful defining is the intent. Is this system going to compliment the slow (relatively speaking) crawl from the stone age to (potentially) some level of dominance over the harsh and unforgiving apocalypse? Is the aim to have characters really struggle at first or to have it more background (important but not a big limiting factor)? The answers to those question will really change the potential tuning.

 

Again, these are great questions. In my mind, the system I'm proposing would not be something that needs to be closely micromanaged, but it still adds a level of complexity that I guess the Fun Pimps seem to believe is lacking from a traditional survival game (like the ones I defined in the OP), and it also adds an incentive to cook better quality food. As a background plus, TFP could somewhat satisfy the request for LBD. You are right in that it is kind of punitive to those who have progressed to guns and vehicles, but then life is like that. Fitness and health doesn't come from desk jobs generally. The punishment factor is really more for those who want it. There are people who complain about end game being too easy, so this could help. I prefer reward, and that's why the more I think about it, the more I want to play the survival-lite mode, but would love for there to be ♥♥♥♥ty death penalties and things for those who want them.

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