Stamina, Health, Food, Water logic, or lack thereof

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]

 

Agreed... but I feel (and maybe I have too high of an opinion of myself) that my suggestions are based less on what I would find fun and more a general baseline of gamedesign.

For example I was one of the first to state that traders were op, even though I LOVED playing as a trader who got everything he needed in a day long tour across the country scouting every traders inventory.

 

I try to make it the best game based on general ideas in gamedevelopment and not about "what would I find fun"?

I would find it fun if explosive weapons would be far more relevant... but I also understand that voxelgames complicate this matter a lot.

 

 

And with the stoneaxe:

I like that TFPs try and make the players happy, and I am certainly one who hits that stupid safe for 10 minutes, because I never want to visit that certain POI again, BUT from a game standpoint, making it possible to loot early with more work incentivises players because the loot is just that good. (AK day 1 is more than worth it to sit there for 10 minutes)

But if there is no weapon in the safe, you feel robbed.

 

So just from a gamedev standpoint, removing the possibility would be better.

I don't know how it would impact playerchoice and fun and opinion of the playebase, because it already is a feature and removing it is not always great.

But yeah it is always a problem when removing/changing an existing feature.

[JaxTeller718]

Sometimes they are actually warranted. Today is such a day.

 

Dammit Roland Im SUPPOSED to be troll/bitter Jax now a days.

 

I can only throw my 2 cents in. Ive played 17.2 until day 14 (i always play new vanillas so im familiar with new mechanics) and I had issues with stamina day one only, and that was easily fixed. Perk up, dont power swing, time your shots and bob and weave. Do NOT run while swinging. At least not until you perk up.

 

Its often a bitter pill to swallow but in this case the only advice IS to git gud. Stamina in 17.0 sure i can see the complaints but in 17.2? Now we are just nitpicking.

[JaxTeller718]

 

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Oh, and Roland, you suffer from what Jax does... You see only on or off. You don't see "could be this way".

 

One day when I actually care Ill ask you what this means. Ravenhearst is literally a mod full of "could be this ways".

 

I thought you were the XML guru dude. Write it up. It would actually be a great addition to what Roland is doing for his mod.

[ktr]

To be fair again this IS an interesting suggestion. But I'm not sure I would like it if it was implemented and it wouldn't stop posts by others who are NOT-VIK who would complain that zombies feel like damage sponges again because the reduced hit damage makes every battle drawn out and long. People would keep swinging and swinging and never take time to recover because they can just keep swinging and they wouldn't be appreciative that they could keep swinging they would want zombie hp reduced and be annoyed at the slower swing speed.

 

Agree that it could be an interesting change - for some people - and agree that if it is done, it will be Stamina Wars II: Revenge of the Pickaxe. Especially since, in theory, the decrease in damage would affect gathering as well - less damage per swing = less resources per swing = people will now feel like they have to micromanage to stamina to maintain above 75% at all times when doing p. much anything.

 

"Inside of five seconds, I'm running slower and I'm tired of having to stop every five seconds to wait to get back that 25% stamina to run at top speed again. It's stupid I can't use my whole stamina bar at the same speed."

 

"Gathering from rocks/trees/etc takes so long now if I don't keep my stamina over 75%. This has ruined base building."

[Roland]

Agree that it could be an interesting change - for some people - and agree that if it is done, it will be Stamina Wars II: Revenge of the Pickaxe. Especially since, in theory, the decrease in damage would affect gathering as well - less damage per swing = less resources per swing = people will now feel like they have to micromanage to stamina to maintain above 75% at all times when doing p. much anything.

 

"Inside of five seconds, I'm running slower and I'm tired of having to stop every five seconds to wait to get back that 25% stamina to run at top speed again. It's stupid I can't use my whole stamina bar at the same speed."

 

"Gathering from rocks/trees/etc takes so long now if I don't keep my stamina over 75%. This has ruined base building."

 

Isn't this the behavior we see with the Near Death Buff? It reduces the player's ability to less than full strength and do we have people thanking TFP that at least they can go out and do some stuff but with less ability? No, we have people going AFK for 30 minutes to get an episode of The Tick in before coming back to play at full strength again.

[Gamida]

Speaking of stamina, how does Sexual Tyrannosaurus work now? It says "reduce melee and tool stamina usage by 5%" (level 1)

Doe is help with stamina for other things also like punching and running?

 

If not which perk will help me to run around longer without having to use "chemical enhancements"

[Bubo]

...Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

17.2 is way WAY better than .0

But the core problem is the inability to do anything while out of stamina...

 

Yep, plus waiting for that stamina refill was..

 

[ktr]

Isn't this the behavior we see with the Near Death Buff? It reduces the player's ability to less than full strength and do we have people thanking TFP that at least they can go out and do some stuff but with less ability? No, we have people going AFK for 30 minutes to get an episode of The Tick in before coming back to play at full strength again.

 

Yep, I hadn't thought about the virulent dislike over the Near Death Buff, but it would be the same.

 

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Speaking of stamina, how does Sexual Tyrannosaurus work now? It says "reduce melee and tool stamina usage by 5%" (level 1)

Doe is help with stamina for other things also like punching and running?

 

If not which perk will help me to run around longer without having to use "chemical enhancements"

 

Cardio in Agility, I think.

[Gamida]

Cardio in Agility, I think.

 

Thanks. I should have known this already but my mind is on the fritz.

[AtomicUs5000]

Madmole said that he would like to see a blocking/pushing mechanism in the game some day, in agreement with requests for such by myself and others.

 

While I personally don’t really see the problems with stamina as I mentioned in my previous post, I think an addition like this would be a good balancer in the fun-factor aspect of melee combat. Those who dislike the management of stamina or dislike the “punishment” of failing to, might be pleased to have blocking/pushing as something you can do as an alternative when stamina is too low to strike.

Of course, it would have to be coded to not have the same stamina requirements, otherwise it will just end up being another thing blocked by stamina. The effectiveness of the shove could be tied to amount of stamina, but should always be available for really hairy situations.

[n2n1]

.....

TFP complied.

.....

You mean... You mean thoughtlessly?

[Roland]

..at least without thought or care about what n2n1 specifically might prefer.

[Morloc]

It doesn't feel good when I run out of bullets. It's so punishing to have to sit and wait and not use my rifle until I can get more bullets in my inventory. TFP should introduce good game design by letting us fire our rifles even without bullets but just for less damage. Plus, to have to wait and repair a rifle that is broken is such a punishment-based design. Once rifles break and are out of bullets we should always be able to continuously fire them and at least do a little bit of ranged damage to zombies because anything other than that is UNFUN!

 

It feels so terrible when I'm out of Dukes and the trader is showing me all this stuff I want. When we are out of Dukes we should be able to still buy stuff from the trader if we want to so we don't have to wait until we get more Dukes. Maybe it is just low quality stuff but we should get it for free because waiting for stuff just sucks and games are meant to be fun.

 

Man, when I'm out of food it really is a tedious process to wait until I get more food before I can eat. If TFP knew what they were doing they would let us eat even when we are out of food. Maybe our fullness just goes up by a little bit but at least we can keep it moving up and have the rewarding feeling of seeing our max stamina increase all the time instead of having to wait to be able to do it until we have more food. To punish us by making us stop doing what we want to be doing and go out and either scavenge, or farm, or hunt is just an incredibly punishing design.

 

Come on Madmole! I'm a builder and I want to be able to constantly feel the fun and rewarding gameplay of building but sometimes I am out of materials and then I am forced to stop the gameplay I love. That is real bad game design. We should be able to continue to make blocks even when we have no materials left in our inventories. Why should I be punished to go spend tedious amounts of time gathering more materials when all I want to do is build. And don't tell me to use the creative menu. That is just a super mean thing to say on the forums. Maybe it could just take a bit longer to craft or maybe the blocks are weaker until you upgrade them later but to just make us stop crafting when we are depleted of mats sucks and if anyone tells me that I'm not playing right or should learn more about how to play they are just a spiteful troll and a TFP fanboi!

 

Wow! +1 and stuff. That sounds strangely familiar too.

 

 

..at least without thought or care about what n2n1 specifically might prefer.

 

Is that that bird flu virus thing?

 

 

Anyways....for whatever my opinion's worth, you guys are dialing back the drama here and having a constructive discussion thing here. That's crunchy cool beans awesome sauce!

 

Anyone care to weigh in on Stamina damage?

 

 

 

-Morloc

[RestInPieces]

Anyone care to weigh in on Stamina damage?

 

Would definitely ensue a ♥♥♥♥storm.

[ColdGate]

-You don't need to be 120 level to get all those perks.

-Coffee and beer should not magic potions that give you infinite stamina etc. It's ridiculous.

-Oh, the woe! Perks are needed, yes that should be fixed!

-Nonsense all around.

 

Really? Look here - http://www.jacksay.com/perks/#B1B8,93,1-0000000000,10-500050500,10-000005000,10-50500000,1-000000000

Lvl 93 its minimal set with some chances to survive horde night melee only, without even armor. And there's points spended only in combat perks, you need more if you want survive till you get all of them, because you need geal, build and craft. Peoples lose interest and start new game much earlier in a17, lvl 60-80 (based on forum comments and my expirience).

[Viktoriusiii]

Would definitely ensue a ♥♥♥♥storm.

 

not even sure why.

you don't need to apply damage on ressource gathering.

I mean there already is block and entity dmg.

Entity dmg goes down with stamina, blockdamage already goes down (or was that removed in A17 as well?) when stamina is below 50%

[Scyris]

:)

 

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I don't mind difficulties in game. But from difficult to tedious - one step.

 

Difficult to tedious is usually one very fine easly crossed line. I pretty much never build a base in 7dtd because I just find it way to tedious and time consuming to do so. Even more so in A17 with the masters degree in engineering zombies now have. It would be easier if structural intergriy when building wasn't a thing though. I mean part of it collapsing as a zombie destroys a support is fine IF they destory every single one, but it shouldn't just randomly collapse on its own as your building it. Though it might just be I really suck at the SI mechanics...

 

I used to be a underground base builder would just dig out a decent sized hole near bedrock with a hatchevator to get out and some hay bales at the bottom so I can jump into it. Didn't have to really worry in a16 about SI underground that far, nor about zombies digging. I mean I could make a trap pit above my base in a17, but spikes are now virtually worthless as their damage is so low they just are a waste of resources and blade traps are later on.

 

As for the OP's main issue about the stamina, I've honestly never really had much of a problem and this is coming from me who usually melees for most of the game. Though I do wish they would unnerf beer. They killed its duration, its effect is the same, but the duration is so short now its not even worth using.

[HungryZombie]

It wasn't just vitamins. Meat Stew, Bacon and Eggs, Blueberry Pie to name a few... not to mention goldenrod tea and red tea. If you could avoid dying and getting sick, max wellness was in the bag. If I had to guess, you probably never reached max wellness because you didn't bother to... it was far from required to play successfully.

 

EDIT: also, if you weren't trying to max out your wellness, it is likely you perked a lot into the hunger and thirst perks... meaning you didn't need to eat or drink much and thus resulting in less chances to increase your wellness. They were tempting perks, but burdens in disguise.

 

I was just giving a view to explain how people could think getting max wellness was difficult in any way since the post I replied to was along the lines of "I don't get why people think this..." You do need to put some effort into it and just playing normally would not get you there.

 

I will agree that it's not exactly "Hard" to do, but you have to focus effort onto it and unless I'm wrong, vitamins was one of the highest wellness raising items in the game so I can't imagine how many bacon & eggs you'd need to eat to max wellness when I had to eat a ton of creative mode'd in vitamins. After a bit I just said "f this" and forgot about wellness all together and played naturally.

 

I never perked on hunger reduction btw. Just ate bacon & eggs and goldenrod tea when needed.

[Scyris]

No, just standing there waiting for it to come back up is not good or smart gameplay. I never do that and I don’t have the problem the OP describes.

 

This is a classic git gud situation. It’s also one in which turning down the difficulty can help if necessary.

 

I find a sledgehammer helps with stamina, its normal attack in a17.2 later on can one shot normal zombies save for the fatties and what it doesn't one shot it usually does enough damage to them to knock them on their ass. Also the power attacks are kinda crap now, due to the fact it pauses stamina regen, maybe thats also OPs issue? they are using too many power attacks which kills their stamina regen to hell and back. The only time I ever use power attacks is if something is in my face and I need a quick knockdown with a iron club or something to get it out of my face. I do feel there should be a perk we can get to reduce how long your "winded" before stamina can regen. Maybe add it to the stay down perk? Since that perk is all about power attacks.

 

I'd also like to see a bladed alternative to the sledgehammer. I generally used blades mainly in A16, but in a17 I find bladed weapons far to weak to bother with. Yeah they can bleed, but why bother when you can swing a sledgehammer once and kill a zombie dead. Only need the headshot dmg perk to do this, compared to needing 2-3 perks with blades to make them viable.

[Roland]

Would definitely ensue a ♥♥♥♥storm.

 

Watching your oxygen, stamina, health, hunger, thirst, temperature, sanity, wellness, strength, fatigue, etc are all stats that can be assaulted by the environment and that for survival's sake the player should need to manage. When those things are damaged the player has to cope. When those things grow and develop the player starts little by little gaining mastery over the world.

 

I'm for stamina damage and any of those other things listed above being able to be damaged (or even threatened) but it will probably have to be a mod that pushes this game into actually being in the survival genre. Right now it's a shooter/tower defense game with survival elements and loud voices are kicking and screaming against those elements every time they are shifted ever so slightly away from the shooter genre and towards the survival genre.

[RestInPieces]

not even sure why.

you don't need to apply damage on ressource gathering.

I mean there already is block and entity dmg.

Entity dmg goes down with stamina, blockdamage already goes down (or was that removed in A17 as well?) when stamina is below 50%

 

Ktr described it well in the previous page. Even if I tend to love immersive/realistic elements that most people find tedious, and even if I might have enjoyed it myself, I don't think that making the damage value fluctuate through combat so much, starting from 75% or even 50% of stamina, is a good idea in general. It would be a much less obvious mechanic to the player from, say, food affecting max stamina, both conceptually and when playing the game, and even if that the latter is depicted visually, it has to be explained or looked up quite often. Also a lot of people will perceive it as micromanagement and will feel they HAVE to retain their stamina over 50%, else the game punishes their, usually, most important stat.

 

Watching your oxygen, stamina, health, hunger, thirst, temperature, sanity, wellness, strength, fatigue, etc are all stats that can be assaulted by the environment and that for survival's sake the player should need to manage. When those things are damaged the player has to cope. When those things grow and develop the player starts little by little gaining mastery over the world.

 

I'm for stamina damage and any of those other things listed above being able to be damaged (or even threatened) but it will probably have to be a mod that pushes this game into actually being in the survival genre.

 

I am a sucker for this kind of stuff. But... remember when temperature was erratic and people had to change clothes all the time? That's the vibe I am getting from this. Plus damage is the absolute last statistic I would ever penalize because 1) it's a statistic that is rarely penalized compared to others 2) it can't easily be visually depicted, unlike e.g. attack speed.

 

Right now it's a shooter/tower defense game with survival elements and loud voices are kicking and screaming against those elements every time they are shifted ever so slightly away from the shooter genre and towards the survival genre.

 

It is and unfortunately many waaayyy more important things need to be addressed, like being able to take a stroll outside with zombie nightmare speed for example. This is just one example and it alone invalidates the need to barricade... mind-boggling.

[AtomicUs5000]

I was just giving a view to explain how people could think getting max wellness was difficult in any way since the post I replied to was along the lines of "I don't get why people think this..." You do need to put some effort into it and just playing normally would not get you there.

 

I will agree that it's not exactly "Hard" to do, but you have to focus effort onto it and unless I'm wrong, vitamins was one of the highest wellness raising items in the game so I can't imagine how many bacon & eggs you'd need to eat to max wellness when I had to eat a ton of creative mode'd in vitamins. After a bit I just said "f this" and forgot about wellness all together and played naturally.

 

I never perked on hunger reduction btw. Just ate bacon & eggs and goldenrod tea when needed.

 

Sure, I understand. You have to understand though, that me pointing out that it could be easy was in response to a dev claiming it was difficult and using that as a basis to why it was bad... and therefore removed.

I believe the wellness system certainly had its flaws, but it always irks me when bad arguments are presented by the devs who should have a better grasp of their own systems. They may have good reasons to scrap what they worked on entirely, but when they do, they have a hard time presenting their reasoning with strong and valid support. When devs speak about the game, people listen... and then usually regurgitate those same bad arguments later when people try discussing dropped features.

[Morloc]

Entity dmg goes down with stamina, blockdamage already goes down (or was that removed in A17 as well?) when stamina is below 50%

 

I'm fairly sure that neither drops with Stamina currently.

 

...I don't think that making the damage value fluctuate through combat so much, starting from 75% or even 50% of stamina, is a good idea in general.

 

I believe when you're "out of Stamina" you're exhausted. Moving at much more than a controlled stumble, or lifting your melee weapon are just impossible until you catch your breath. While it's realistic that you'd do less damage (particularly with crushing weapons) if you were about to become exhausted, you'd also have to lower the proc chances for things like 'sploding heads or sledgehammer AoE knockdowns, so I'd agree...best to leave that one alone.

 

I remember block dmg used to taper off with weapon/tool durability, and I believe with a certain threshold of Stamina. I can remember heading out to mine with a few picks, and carrying them back to be melted down when they were too "dull" for efficient use. Was iron really that rare back then??

 

 

-Morloc

[RestInPieces]

Really? Look here - http://www.jacksay.com/perks/#B1B8,93,1-0000000000,10-500050500,10-000005000,10-50500000,1-000000000

Lvl 93 its minimal set with some chances to survive horde night melee only, without even armor. And there's points spended only in combat perks, you need more if you want survive till you get all of them, because you need geal, build and craft. Peoples lose interest and start new game much earlier in a17, lvl 60-80 (based on forum comments and my expirience).

 

You have maxed three attributes at this point though. Max strength is definitely essential, maxed fortitude is surely helpful but not 100% necessary, maxed agility is mehhh... As for people losing interest around that point is also a matter of many other factors. But the most important thing to note is that a horde night isn't supposed to be fought with a lone person frantically drinking beers using melee only, but also with a combination of traps, barricades etc. If you do a good job with these up to a point, not even human intervention is needed.

[Dimpy]

 

Yep, that's the idea. You'd never be able to make your stamina drop all the way down to 0%. Instead, it would decay geometrically.

 

It's probably a good to keep the stamina used per second vs damage dealt per second ratio relatively constant in regard to differing stamina. Otherwise, as it's been pointed out, it requires micromanagement. (I personally love stamina management, but this sort of thing could be solved with a macro, so what's the point?)

 

If you're at 25% stamina, causing your swings to do 50% less damage per swing, then it's fair that each swing also takes 50% less stamina.