Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

Yep , doing Keto...IF we stop at a fast food place its Inn N Out and get a 4x4 mustard only protein style...which is in lettuce instead of a bun

 

So if any of those zombies are doing Keto and you toss that burger bomb out with a bun , you are SCREWED

 

Yeah I'm half zombie, probably 50-60% of my calories come from protein. I can do moderate carbs but I'm hungry and bloated all the time where the same calories with a protien fat diet and low carb I feel fuller and lose fat easier if I do cardio. So F carbs they aren't worth it. Unless your a really busy guy doing hard labor I don't think you need a ton of carbs. Mine come from fruit and I eat it in the morning.

[Guppycur]

I don't remember. Best throwing the whole thing in the trash lol. I do miss their sausage egg and cheese mcmuffins. Food allergies suck. I mean I can eat one, the worst thing that happens is I get my nose and ear plugged up for half a day, but its not really worth it.

 

Yeh I'm all about mcds breakfast, but Chic filet and Jack in the box also have my sausage egg cheese biscuit...

[khzmusik]

Incentives. I witnessed the game change completely from people having as their main objectives things like harvesting materials, building a shelter, hunting for meat, scavenging POI's, and starting a garden-- and doing those things in an organic and survival focused manner to the game becoming all about chasing experience points for the purpose of leveling up as quickly as possible.

 

It's a bit of a conundrum. If you have any kind of in-game reward at all for gaining XP, then you're incentivizing players to level up as quickly as possible (intentionally or not). But if you don't do that, then you've given the player nothing to indicate any sense of progress or achievement.

 

Or, put another way, players min/max because that's how you "win" by the game's own rules. The only way to "fix" that is to make an "unwinnable" game.

 

I'm not saying I have a solution, of course. There are ways to mitigate it, certainly, but I haven't seen a single game that can't be min/maxed somehow. In fact, most players seem to think that's precisely what "git good" means. C'est la vie.

 

You will gain skillpoints simply for surviving for a full day and for completing quests. Whether you kill zombies, avoid them, mine, farm, scavenge, trade...whatever—None of that will gain you xp and no activity will act as a missed opportunity where you could have done something else more valuable to level yourself up.

 

Wow, I thought you were joking about that. I want to play that mod when it's finished.

 

But I am curious whether the majority will enjoy it. It takes away the notion that you have any agency in leveling up, and that can be perceived as taking away player choice (even though it's technically more freeing).

 

Even so it's a good experiment, and I'm pretty sure I'll like it.

[Laz Man]

I made mine throwable, so that you can throw it down a dark hole and let physics take over, watching it tumble and illuminate what's down there. You should consider it (I did it for torches and lanterns too), it's quite fun and gives it a nice purpose. Sure, the drop mesh doesn't stick around forever, but I just pretend it "died out".

 

 

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The best prefab makers from the modding community are, in no particular order (and my own opinion):

 

Horst

LazMan

Pille

Topminder

 

...if y'all are looking, you may want to check out their respective works. =)

 

Thanks for the kudos guppy. Makes me feel bad I havent released/updated in ages lol...

[Laz Man]

 

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[Retsof123]

It bothers me that flashlights are rather useless. Perhaps you can use flashlights to repair your mining hat instead of forged iron.

 

Cool, I like this, also agree with using it as an ingredient for bicycle. Need more usage for minor items that are over abundant.

[Blackgryphon]

So F carbs they aren't worth it.

 

Yeah, unless you suffer from extreme depression. Then low carbing just makes it worse. But for everyone else, no problem. My sister's been doing Keto for a while now and she's lost a ton of weight.

[Demonoid74]

I am almost always doing the keto diet as I am a major carnivore as it is...I really only eat carbs and cheat if we go somewhere like Knotts Berry Farm , Disneyland or Northwoods Inn in California...normal fast food , sodas and fries? pffft , do not waste my time and not worth the carbs...has to be something special! otherwise , I do 24g or less of carbs a day

[FA_Q2]

I don't think it would have widespread appeal. For example there was a lot of negativity when loot was hugely nerfed from killing zombies. With no loot and no xp I think a lot of people wouldn't be very happy. It appeals to some obviously but not for a vanilla experience.

 

I firmly believe that modding is for creating an alternate experience and not for fixing supposed problems. I'm doing this for my own preferences having fully played and enjoyed the vanilla experience. Even though I personally don't like an xp incentive tempting me to not play organically others really love and enjoy the process of accruing experience.

 

Meh, I think it would have much more appeal than the system we have now. Not that I think the devs will or even should make the change - personally I think that this should have been a cornerstone with how the game play developed as it puts emphasis on the one thing that should matter in this game - survival. It is pretty late to change something like that though.

 

We all know that modding is for improving or customizing the experience though - you only think modding is for fixing fundamental and core systems if you work for Bethesda (couldn't help the dig here )

[bob the big blob of goo]

It's a bit of a conundrum. If you have any kind of in-game reward at all for gaining XP, then you're incentivizing players to level up as quickly as possible (intentionally or not). But if you don't do that, then you've given the player nothing to indicate any sense of progress or achievement.

 

Or, put another way, players min/max because that's how you "win" by the game's own rules. The only way to "fix" that is to make an "unwinnable" game.

 

I'm not saying I have a solution, of course. There are ways to mitigate it, certainly, but I haven't seen a single game that can't be min/maxed somehow. In fact, most players seem to think that's precisely what "git good" means. C'est la vie.

...

 

Said much better than I did. There are some great thoughts on all angles of the skills/progression method. I also agree with what Madmole said about Skyrim and the max level issues. No matter how they skin this thing, most players want to see, taste and feel progression.

 

A good number of players play solo even when they are on a multi-player server, so they have the need to get good in many areas of play. That I think is the crux of why this balance is much harder to strike.

 

In many ways, I'd like to see our skills degrade over-time if we didn't use them. That way you would have to spend points or time on those secondary skills if you wanted to keep them at high levels.

 

No matter what, I'm still having fun playing the game, testing out new ideas as TFPs experiment, and very glad I don't have to make the final call on what happens.

[bdubyah]

See, I understand what he was saying about Skyrim's skills. But when I played it, it just gave me more motivation to adopt a new play style. Maxed out One Handed? Start rolling Two Handed. Same with Light or Heavy Armor. So there's definitely more than one way to look at it.

 

I really think a hybrid of old and new systems could be the best way. Doesn't seem to be the way TFP will go, but I think some LDB could good.

 

Edit- And also, I still think that even after maxing INT and crafting, there should just be certain things you can't craft. Tier 6 anything, for example. I'd even be happy with vehicles having at least one part you can't craft, but have to loot. Exploration and looting need more of an emphasis than they currently have. It used to be weapon parts and such, but they took those out. Random stats on gear could help with that. Make it so crafted items aren't as good as what you might find looting. Like say, crafting determines the damage a pistol you craft can do, but it's not a set number but instead a range it can fall in. And even at max stats, you can only craft it so high, but can find higher stat items out in the world.

 

I think that might be the idea for the legendary stuff maybe, but I think it would be well applied to everything, really.

[mr.natural]

We might remove the xp popout so you can't tie a value very easily to an activity.

 

One could consider to make it a option at the game settings.

[mikewuk]

Meanwhile I'll have to run a 2nd horde to capture the different angles using a backup save. Which works to a degree but those pesky zombies always do something different. Shame no-one else wants this cool feature. It would sell the game because those YouTube videos would be that bit more amazing to watch and make.

[Brandox471]

Hmmm, I just dropped in on this convo regarding the "need" to level vs playing to survive. I would rather play to survive but currently like some of the things available at higher skill sets (jeep anyone?). Been trying to find a balance there and still playing to make my nice little town and farm. Hopefully as things get worked out things will get closer to that again.

[Kage848]

Incentives. I witnessed the game change completely from people having as their main objectives things like harvesting materials, building a shelter, hunting for meat, scavenging POI's, and starting a garden-- and doing those things in an organic and survival focused manner to the game becoming all about chasing experience points for the purpose of leveling up as quickly as possible.

 

Now I'm not knocking that type of gameplay for those who like it but it was a dramatic departure of the types of incentives and rewards the player was exposed to and in my opinion-- not for the better.

 

Even the new system (imo) gives too much incentive to the player to directly increase their experience and level up by grinding even without LBD acting as highly addictive drug for that gameplay style. I have just one last hurdle to overcome which I'm hoping to get help on this week and then my mod will be ready for public testing in which xp is completely bypassed. You will gain skillpoints simply for surviving for a full day and for completing quests. Whether you kill zombies, avoid them, mine, farm, scavenge, trade...whatever—None of that will gain you xp and no activity will act as a missed opportunity where you could have done something else more valuable to level yourself up. You will take actions for their own merit and not as a means to gaining xp efficiently.

 

Do you have a discord? I'd love to try your mod

 

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We might remove the xp popout so you can't tie a value very easily to an activity.

 

Please leave it in. It's awesome. And for people that dont like it they can play Roland's upcoming mod lol. Let's make different experiences not all the same game.

[Kage848]

Yeah I'm half zombie, probably 50-60% of my calories come from protein. I can do moderate carbs but I'm hungry and bloated all the time where the same calories with a protien fat diet and low carb I feel fuller and lose fat easier if I do cardio. So F carbs they aren't worth it. Unless your a really busy guy doing hard labor I don't think you need a ton of carbs. Mine come from fruit and I eat it in the morning.

 

That's alot of protien dude. Im usually 35%carbs, 30% fat and 35% protien.

 

On a side note you should make a diet thread somewhere on these forums. Idk, maybe you do, I didnt look.

 

Also do you use diet apps? I use myfitness pal. Kage848 if anyone wants to friend me.

 

Now back to back to you regularly scheduled alpha 18 talk.

 

#keepexperiencepopups

[Crater Creator]

You know you need to go gold when the forum moderators are modding.

 

But...

But we've been...

Since...

<sigh> Never mind. Keep on truckin'.

 

Instead we get the grindy loop of either mine all day and night, or kill lots of Zombies with the best gear you can find. You keep using the worst LBDing design you all came up with as reasons the whole system is broken. I'm happy with general points, and I think your proposed new stuff looks great, but you might try looking at the places where LBD wasn't broken, rather than the areas we all mostliy agree it was.

 

Okay, let me throw you a bone. I liked Athletics. I thought it was well balanced. Every time Athletics leveled up, my reaction was, "Oh yeah, I have been running a lot come to think of it."

 

We might remove the xp popout so you can't tie a value very easily to an activity.

 

When it comes to HUD information, just remember Roland would probably prefer to douse himself with water every few minutes to check if he were on fire.

[Crater Creator]

Adding at least 8 million more dungeons. Even a tent will be dungeon and spawn a behemoth if your game stage 1. But seriously no we're adding a lot more dungeons but are adding some more abandoned ruins types of POIS as well.

 

What really surprised me, and ended up being one of my biggest gripes with Alpha 17, is that game stage doesn't affect the quantity of sleepers in POIs. I don't mind the high number overall, but I think the player needs a chance to get established.

 

There's a strong natural instinct, when first thrown into this dangerous apocalypse, to seek shelter. Using an existing structure is intuitive; more intuitive than immediately trying to erect a new structure, when you're naked with almost nothing, or worse yet stay exposed outside. But the current game is balanced so that securing even a simple house on Day 1 is the hardest thing to do.

 

I'd love to see more abandoned ruins, and Navezgane already puts the player start points near abandoned houses. But especially for RWG, instead of leaving that learning curve to RNG, it would be better to address this by making the POIs you already have work better for the early game. For ComSenMod, I hacked in a solution where you only get about half the sleepers in POIs at game stage 1 ('regular' sleeper groups, not bears and whatnot intended for special locations). That 'grace period' then tapers off fairly quickly with game stage, so you can't blow through looting house after house.

[Damocles]

I usually just climb onto a roof of any flat building. Easiest and safest way to get any early base. There should be some "night vultures" that dont make this the dominating strategy.

[Xtrakicking]

I think we could spawn some with missing limbs at random then we'd see more of that.

 

Please do this. It would be a great way to achieve a lot more variety without the need to add resource-hungry assets to the game.

 

Plus, it will make the zombies look much cooler. You could even get rid of the crawler entity and just have some zombies spawn with a missing leg.

[Roland]

When it comes to HUD information, just remember Roland would probably prefer to douse himself with water every few minutes to check if he were on fire.

 

Hey! I do that because it’s refreshing!!

[Laz Man]

Please do this. It would be a great way to achieve a lot more variety without the need to add resource-hungry assets to the game.

 

Plus, it will make the zombies look much cooler. You could even get rid of the crawler entity and just have some zombies spawn with a missing leg.

 

Ooo that's a fab idea. Adds alittle more flavor to the game.

[canadianbluebeer]

What really surprised me, and ended up being one of my biggest gripes with Alpha 17, is that game stage doesn't affect the quantity of sleepers in POIs. I don't mind the high number overall, but I think the player needs a chance to get established.

 

There's a strong natural instinct, when first thrown into this dangerous apocalypse, to seek shelter. Using an existing structure is intuitive; more intuitive than immediately trying to erect a new structure, when you're naked with almost nothing, or worse yet stay exposed outside. But the current game is balanced so that securing even a simple house on Day 1 is the hardest thing to do.

 

I'd love to see more abandoned ruins, and Navezgane already puts the player start points near abandoned houses. But especially for RWG, instead of leaving that learning curve to RNG, it would be better to address this by making the POIs you already have work better for the early game. For ComSenMod, I hacked in a solution where you only get about half the sleepers in POIs at game stage 1 ('regular' sleeper groups, not bears and whatnot intended for special locations). That 'grace period' then tapers off fairly quickly with game stage, so you can't blow through looting house after house.

 

Ranger Station is a nice starter house. Easy to find in Navezgane, RWG well...

 

Ground floor is flagstone already. Make 8 more blocks to fill in the ground door and windows. Upgrading the ground floor is fairly easy.

(lotsa cobblestone and cement to be found early, so make a shovel asap!)

 

I use the one in the burning land, close (enough) to 2 traders, and the burning zeds don't sneak up on you. (crackle flop shuffle)

[PiercedFromWithin]

 

Okay, let me throw you a bone. I liked Athletics. I thought it was well balanced. Every time Athletics leveled up, my reaction was, "Oh yeah, I have been running a lot come to think of it."

 

 

Funny... whenever my Athletics leveled up, my usual reaction was "why is my Athletics leveling up when I've been crouching/looting/calmly maintaining my base/cooking for the last 5 minutes?"

 

But I figured the majority of getting to that point came from running and jumping so it did work okay. As a rule I do like most of the LBD stuff. I know there were exploits but there are always exploits. So you fix the ones you can and either come up with a hybrid side system(which it seemed we were leaning towards with the A16 perks) for the ones that don't or accept that no system is perfect for those outliers.

 

Just because some players feel they are "forced" to sprint into a wall or teabag a cactus for hours at a time doesn't mean far more prefer to play the game while doing whatever they wish to do and develop their character organically based on getting good at what they do most -- and occasionally practicing other things they want to improve. That does lead to some issues of specific abilities being difficult to increase naturally for some players but that's where on the one hand a hybrid system can come into play and on the other hand you might ask yourself whether the way it improves is the right way to do it(improving armor skills by getting injured vs doing strenuous things while wearing armor is the obvious example).

 

Tying advancement purely to levels then means you have to balance the pace of leveling for all the various activities people do and just creates different opportunities for exploits or for getting trapped in "forced" gameplay flow. There's no perfect system and no really easy way to get it right for everyone.

 

 

*This isn't a knock on the current system, just speaking of LBD in principle and why it remains more appealing to some players. That and a reminder of if you spend all of your time removing all the ways people can "game the system" it's astonishingly easy to end up removing an awful lot of the enjoyment people who just don't do that can get out of the game.

[Trankitas]

Here you go, step into my time machine and enjoy.

 

Well played Joel...well played.