Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

[warmer]

As a primarily SP player, the new build is the best for me so far, so I can't quite agree with the majority of people stating 17.2 is broken. To me it feels great.

 

As far as streams being down, this game has been out for YEARS. people want to see new things. If the the sheer number of concurrent viewers is your measure of success, I am not sure you are measuring this game against the proper yard stick.

[katarynna]

Some like the certainty of things happening in a specific order controlled by the game, some (dare I say most? Why yes, yes I do) prefer player controlled uncertainty.

 

...have fun with that phrase.

 

I like the certainty of knowing that the things I feel are absolutely necessary to have at some point in the game are available once I reach that point. I have no problem, as I believe I have made clear, with player controlled uncertainty for luxuries or things that have many available equivalent options.

 

Do you believe most people would be ok knowing they may never get concrete or steel crafting in their playthrough. No chem station, ever?

 

I am sure some people would be ok with that, but I doubt that most would be.

[Aldranon]

Dunno where your getting 30k. The video I chose only had 15k total and that was after well over a year. The views it got in the first few days was 8k. Then it got another 7k over the next like 16 months. You cant compare a videos views that has been out for 16 months with one that's been out for 1 month. Give me the video you mean. But make sure it was posted 3 months after the release of alpha 16.

 

Just wanted to say thanks as I watch your 7D2D and Empyrion videos almost daily. You have a passion for the game and doing things right. Actually many steamers are perfectionists and I have gotten many good ideas (I don't use the pathing, but I do use J.C's "Nanotech Repulsive technologies").

 

 

That A17 is in flux right now has nothing to do with streamers being fun to watch or not.

[Guppycur]

I like the certainty of knowing that the things I feel are absolutely necessary to have at some point in the game are available once I reach that point. I have no problem, as I believe I have made clear, with player controlled uncertainty for luxuries or things that have many available equivalent options.

 

Do you believe most people would be ok knowing they may never get concrete or steel crafting in their playthrough. No chem station, ever?

 

I am sure some people would be ok with that, but I doubt that most would be.

 

Even at the worst gates, we've always had what we needed to survive. Sure, we may have been delayed and had to improvise as things got hard, but hell, that's the fun element missing from the game now anyway ...

 

Level 1, get crap loot, face crap zombies.

 

Level 10, get mediocre loot, face mediocre zombies.

 

Level 50, get better loot, face better zombies.

 

Level 100, get good loot, face good zombies.

 

...very linear. The challenge is exactly the same, regardless of level, because you're facing levelled challenges.

 

The fun and challenge of variety is gone. The excitement of the unknown, gone. The mystery gone. The decision making gone.

[katarynna]

Even at the worst gates, we've always had what we needed to survive. Sure, we may have been delayed and had to improvise as things got hard, but hell, that's the fun element missing from the game now anyway ...

 

Level 1, get crap loot, face crap zombies.

 

Level 10, get mediocre loot, face mediocre zombies.

 

Level 50, get better loot, face better zombies.

 

Level 100, get good loot, face good zombies.

 

...very linear. The challenge is exactly the same, regardless of level, because you're facing levelled challenges.

 

The fun and challenge of variety is gone. The excitement of the unknown, gone. The mystery gone. The decision making gone.

 

Lol you are a much, much more skilled player than me I am sure. You also obviously need and enjoy a much greater amount of challenge than I do. I'm a 50 year old grandma who's hand-eye coordination is not what it used to be. And who doesn't enjoy mechanics that add to the tedium I feel with no real benefit I can see (such as gun parts, sticks, and such) and who wants a feeling of at least minimal safety at my base achieved by building it securely with appropriate materials and traps for the number and type of zombies I am facing. I also play single player almost exclusively.

 

A group of ferals or a wandering horde of dogs and bears I didn't hear coming while mining or looting is plenty challenge and excitement for me.

 

We come from such different perspectives that it is obvious we will never enjoy the same kind of things.

 

It makes it even more amazing that TFP were able to develop a game that we are both passionate about. Hopefully it will end up being a game we can both enjoy.

[PPanda0421]

I don’t know. I’ve been reading the back and forth and I’ve seen katarynna post several times that they could play their way under both the old and new system but prefers the new system. That seems to mean they understand what all can be done under both systems.

 

I enjoyed both systems and would be fine with the return of general skills that increase by LBD as long as they don’t gate anything. Just separate autonomous skills to be improved and I’d be happy. Or keep the current system and change the intelligence tree so that crafting recipes are learned by books and traders and have new cool effect perks for the intelligence tree.

 

Or keep what we have now. That’s fun as well. A17 has been the most fun I’ve had for a long time. I don’t think my fun would be dampened by LBD being added into the mix. It would be increased if they would speed the dang zombies up a bit more. I love love love the zombie AI and where others go into a rage to see enemies follow a complex path to get to them or find their base’s weakness, it fascinates and tickles me every time they do it. I love the bicycle. I love the survival system and the interplay between stamina, hunger, health, and thirst. I wish it wasn’t so easy now. I liked sometimes starving to death in A17.0.

 

I love that the game is moddable and that this community is eager to help people test different ways to play. I love that Tin might do a variation of an xpless progression.

 

So given all that I’m happy with or without LBD. Those who can’t play happily without it...carry on with your campaign. It’s why this forum exists.

 

Eh to me A17 felt more like I had to grind to get anything done. Believe me I know what a grind is. Anyone remember Dark Age of Camelot Trials of Atlantis (TOA)? In order to compete in RVR (realm vs realm) you had to be ML10. So you had to get ML levels by doing these epic raids with about 100 other players each raid. 1 ML quest would take up to 14 hours and could span an entire weekend. That was half the problem. After you finished an entire level of ML quest you needed ML exp to reach/start the next ML level by *redoing* the same or lower level ML quests again with someone who needed the ML quest. All this was before they changed TOA to make it much easier to get ML levels.

 

I liked A16.x better overall which didn't feel like a grind to me at all. I feel like in A17 I'm always keeping eye on the XP bar so I could reach the next level so I could get that required perk. The 'gating' part made it worse. The second major problem IMO is the AI. They are way too smart to be able to pinpoint an exact 'weakness' location and giving them buffs when in a group makes it worse (though I don't know if these feature was removed recently). The 3rd one is RWG including changes to Z level. Not major but I have to say this: those magazine books are USELESS. No longer excited to see the bookstore POI.

 

The best things about a17 are the new vehicles, the new questing system (which still needs tweaking), new pois (though too many dungeon-like with fall-through floors) and farming system.

[Roland]

...levelled...

 

I knew Guppy would get here eventually. He used to talk about leaning with passion.

[Aldranon]

The gates seem too artificial and for me, have an annoyance associated with them.

 

Difficulty

I like how WoW did difficulty. Some places are easy peasy and some places you're gona die if you're not completely ready.

 

So, make the Shotgun Messiah HQ POI tier 6 IN EVERY WAY! Yes sir, tier 6 weapons right there, day 1. But there are NO regular zombies in that place! Make tier 6 POI's have a spooky sound bite when you enter so people know its going to get real (-ish).

 

There's your controlled chaos.

 

Or difficulty is biome controlled or a mix of biome and POI:

"You want a bunch of beakers? There is a hospital deep in the wasteland where the beakers flow like milk and honey!".

[Guppycur]

This guy gets it.

[DaVegaNL]

Remove perks entirely, keep skills, make skills increase ONLY by doing, bring back books, keep other avenues of achievable book skills, done.

 

...not rocket science, and everyone wins

 

You forget sticks mate, they should also be brought back, right? ^^

[Aldranon]

And make it where you cant completely 100% win the game. Something that guns or a sledgehammer cant "solve".

 

For example: The final difficulty challenge, the player must subdue "The Duke" or somehow contain him.

 

The Duke is a "Super" Radiated zombie, with a special power that makes no one want to kill him. So you need to devise a trap that will contain him, or do something to appease or sedate him. Killing him will cause an explosion to be as if an ounce of liquid Uranium-235 instantly exploded with all its potential force...

 

No-No that's a lot! Imagine the biggest Ford truck, overfilled will coal... got it?

Now imagine over 500 of those trucks, bumper to bumper on a four lane highway... many people couldn't see the end of them.

All of that igniting in a fraction of a second in one spot. You would be dead before you could feel the pain.

 

The ending of 7D2D Part 1, would have nothing to do with how much of a Badass you are but how much of a smartass you are! ... Wait.

 

 

So also make the game more than just another kill-fest thing.

[Ghostlight]

I don't think I have ever leveled medicine or armor above 10 the whole time we had the lbd system.

 

That simply means with your play-style, you didn't need those skills. It was ingenious.

[Ghostlight]

You are not everyone. I respect your opinion that due to your playstyle, you lost choices and have less freedom. I am sorry for that, and hope it improves for you.

 

I lost nothing and gained freedom due to my play style. Can you give me that same respect?

 

I prefer a17 progression. I liked a16, but a17 suits my play style much better and allows me to play completely organically, focusing on what I need to do at that moment to best survive and thrive with no thoughts or time spent hitting level 40 in construction tools.

 

Well you are not everyone either. And I would venture to say your opinions on the 2 systems are the polar opposite of the vast majority of other people. Most people, myself included, feel A16's system is the one that promoted organic gameplay; doing what you needed to do on a daily basis without thinking much about efficient grinding of some stat or other. It was A17 that introduced the over-arching feeling of the constant need to grind XP by the most efficient way possible just to get to level X where Y will unlock.

 

In A16 the idea of getting 5 points per turn and being able to spend them on a major stat, OR to top up a minor gating stat (like Construction Tools) OR even splurge them all on a minor gating stat that you would never otherwise raise normally due to your play-style (like Medicine), offered real choice and character development imo, that A17 sorely lacks.

 

In A17 all I think about - without wanting to think about it - is how best to earn XP the fastest way to get to the next thing I want to unlock. I therefore find myself behaving erratically (doing stuff I do not need or even want to do - like days on end mining late game because that's where the XP is - just because it's the quickest way to level up, and not because I actually need to mine.

[RestInPieces]

It's not that I see in black and white. It is that I read what someone else has written as they wrote it. I don't assume I knew what they were thinking. I assume they meant exactly what they wrote.

 

It's not that you assume exactly what they write, you either don't want or can't fathom anything beyond what has already been done or what you already have seen. That may be my fault for not conveying this concept properly.

 

there ARE no other ways to get them except perks

 

Like in this case. People already made examples about it, anything can be done, anything can be created. TFP didn't find scripts and assets grazing on an open field in nature, domesticated them and then used them. O.o

 

I asked HOW you are proposing to ensure those things are obtainable, since the statements about layered rng and gating behind radioactive zones and such in specific poi's was your idea. What if your world doesn't have those poi's in those zones?

 

Or this case. RWG wasn't grazing on an open field at some mountain in the Alpes either. Just like buildings spawn on the ground and not in the air or underwater (well in most patches anyway), RWG can guarantee any combo you can imagine. Specific buildings in specific zones or whatever.

 

 

Or else you could be unable to ever make steel even after clearing every poi on the map because the specific poi in the specific zone did not spawn in your world. ........................................................................................... and in multiplayer if some jerk got there first, looted, and then destroyed the poi a lot of people are gonna be upset. Even if they don't destroy the poi, if the book is already looted when you find it there are more problems. You would have to camp out nearby but not so close that loot doesn't respawn (if it is even set to respawn) and try to keep anyone else away who come looking for it.

 

Almost wrote a movie script there, the answer is just having (much costlier) failsafe/alternative ways to get the perks. Can be events, traders, alien probes, anything that is not connected with the voxel world really. And even failsafes can have a small factor of randomness.

 

your idea as stated is very vague and relies a lot on a "I'm sure it will all work out fine" attitude without any real thought to the problems your ideas would also create. I have a hard time evaluating what my opinion is without a more fleshed-out idea. There seems to me to be a whole lot of problems that would need solving.

 

A whole lot of problems? That's rich since you haven't mentioned any actual problems until now. No problems that are real, haven't been addressed or don't have a very obvious solution anyway.

 

I am fine with waiting to get something until it is really necessary. I am not fine with possibly never getting something necessary to me.

 

Like this one. You just refuse to imagine there can be another way other than having an item just being completely random with a miniscule chance like some items were (pliers, forge in early alphas, etc), in the past. Even if you already read that this doesn't have to be the case at all. Which gives me the slight impression that you are rejecting this concept just to be a contrarian.

 

You also say not through fixed trader quests. I am asking how you will make absolutely certain. Because if you have a specific workable idea for that then I could possibly get behind it.

 

Fixed quests - no. Surefire, yes. Quests for example could be the (costlier) surefire alternative to exploration. When I say that they shouldn't be surefire but not fixed, I mean that they should depend on triggers, like players' actions or events (that are also not fixed). An example of a not-fixed but surefire event are bloodmoons, if you have set them with a range. They obviously have to be costly so that they are used as an actual alternative.

 

Regarding your last point, you do realize diminishing returns would have just made those skills even more useless. As far as I know, it was not possible to naturally level armor. As someone who did not afk on cactus and who also got hit by zombies more often than I should have, by level 100 or so my armor never got above 10 in any playthrough in a 1-100 system.

......................

The people who leveled armor by afking on cactus didn't do it that way because meds were useless, because death was inconsequential, or anything like that. They did it because that was the ONLY way to do it.

 

Not at all. Crafting would work great with recipe diminishing returns. Leveling armor would either have to fundamentally change, or made that it simply levels with zombie hits and not every kind of damage.

 

Of course they also did it because of those reasons, since "it isn't worth doing something, if you lose more than you gain. (-Plato)" *sunset background*

 

 

the difference in a17 is that I know I will get them.

 

That's the only argument I can respect since the others are full of holes. That's simple, (probably) pure preference. - you want a standard, fixed point at which you get things. I do respect this preference of yours, but surely don't like the system behind it, the concept of leveled loot, enemies and pre-determined gates. On that we can happily agree to disagree.

 

 

Also, I asked two times already and didn't get a reply on this:

 

"You said and say again that you will feel forced/"compelled" to ignore almost everything in order to slog through POIs and get these necessary schematics. How come you don't also feel compelled at the moment in A17 to get them? What's the difference and A17 makes you feel freer than ever?"

[Ghostlight]

I am fine with waiting to get something until it is really necessary. I am not fine with possibly never getting something necessary to me.

 

Probably shouldn't be playing sandbox survival games then? I mean the entire point of such games is you get a random start, find random things and have to make the best with what you have, while going out to find those precious things you don't have. Some of which you may never find, forcing you to adapt.

 

Now while I can agree with the idea that players should never lack absolute KEY things like the Forge and Tool and Die set, but most other things that you may think you need are actually a luxury, and their lack is what makes the game interesting. My most memorable runs of this game (before A17 made no run memorable because they are all the same) are those were I lacked something. The prime example was the one where I never found the Shotgun book, and had to make do with other guns.

 

the difference in a17 is that I know I will get them

 

This is the one thing I loathe the most about A17. Why would you want this when it just makes every run the same? Where's the replayability? I wonder how many runs you have actually started in A17? I ask because this problem - having everything at the same level every time thus rendering the game bland - is one that will not manifest itself to most players until they have started several new runs in A17, and experienced for themselves how predictable and formulaic the game has become. I do not think enough people have restarted enough times to actually see how BAD this is for the game's long-term health.

 

This is a feature added for casual players, no doubt. Give them everything the game has to offer on a plate with little effort required to get it, and they will call it freedom.

[Gazz]

Probably shouldn't be playing sandbox survival games then? I mean the entire point of such games is you get a random start, find random things and have to make the best with what you have, while going out to find those precious things you don't have. Some of which you may never find, forcing you to adapt.

I know and I'd like to see more of that but... and that's a big but...

the majority of players does not play 100 or 300 hour games and they still expect to see a reasonable percentage of the game.

 

And here I mean the actual majority, not the forum majority who agrees with the poster on a surprising number of conflicting issues.

[RestInPieces]

I know and I'd like to see more of that but... and that's a big but...

the majority of players does not play 100 or 300 hour games and they still expect to see a reasonable percentage of the game.

 

And here I mean the actual majority, not the forum majority who agrees with the poster on a surprising number of conflicting issues.

 

The majority (to which I also belong) definitely can't or won't play much indeed - no statistics are even needed. Most people have families, mountains of obligations that come with families and have to work (unfortunately).

 

But there can be a silver lining and not everyone in this majority enjoys instant gratification - personally I am a fan of slower progression (one of the things I liked in A17) - but in this case it's more about the range at which you get something - not strictly how soon you will get it. That random range creates more diverse playthroughs.

[DaVegaNL]

Well you are not everyone either. And I would venture to say your opinions on the 2 systems are the polar opposite of the vast majority of other people. Most people, myself included, feel A16's system is the one that promoted organic gameplay; doing what you needed to do on a daily basis without thinking much about efficient grinding of some stat or other. It was A17 that introduced the over-arching feeling of the constant need to grind XP by the most efficient way possible just to get to level X where Y will unlock.

 

I've always been tought that once someone starts talking about the 'silent majority', of which they claim they are a part of, they only use such a mechanism to try to make their argumentation seem to be more important.

 

So.. I don't think you should use the 'silent majority'.

[RestInPieces]

I've always been tought that once someone starts talking about the 'silent majority', of which they claim they are a part of, they only use such a mechanism to try to make their argumentation seem to be more important.

 

So.. I don't think you should use the 'silent majority'.

 

The majority (to which I also belong) definitely can't or won't play much indeed - no statistics are even needed.

[Guppycur]

Btw Kat, I'm nearly 50 myself and ALSO suck at this game, and in my current game there are things I need but can't yet find to progress down a path I REALLY want to proceed down... But I'm making do, because I built in choices.

 

Choices are what drives more playthroughs...

 

Anyway, besides more railing against levelled (loot, threats, perks), I've said my piece, so peace!

[HerrKingsley]

RNG is Survival, you basically adapt or die!

 

Thats why i modded magazines to give permanent perk point and 0 skill points when leveling.

OMG the adaptation is real!

[katarynna]

Probably shouldn't be playing sandbox survival games then? I mean the entire point of such games is you get a random start, find random things and have to make the best with what you have, while going out to find those precious things you don't have. Some of which you may never find, forcing you to adapt.

 

Now while I can agree with the idea that players should never lack absolute KEY things like the Forge and Tool and Die set, but most other things that you may think you need are actually a luxury, and their lack is what makes the game interesting. My most memorable runs of this game (before A17 made no run memorable because they are all the same) are those were I lacked something. The prime example was the one where I never found the Shotgun book, and had to make do with other guns.

 

 

 

This is the one thing I loathe the most about A17. Why would you want this when it just makes every run the same? Where's the replayability? I wonder how many runs you have actually started in A17? I ask because this problem - having everything at the same level every time thus rendering the game bland - is one that will not manifest itself to most players until they have started several new runs in A17, and experienced for themselves how predictable and formulaic the game has become. I do not think enough people have restarted enough times to actually see how BAD this is for the game's long-term health.

 

This is a feature added for casual players, no doubt. Give them everything the game has to offer on a plate with little effort required to get it, and they will call it freedom.

 

Again I specified the things I feel are necessities. Workstations and making forged iron/steel/concrete. Those are not necessities week one. But eventually they become, to me, necessities. Other people may not agree that you should be able to count on finding those particular items/skills every playthrough at an appropriate gamestage.

 

I enjoy having a random start, finding random items and making the best of it. I don't care if I am never able to craft a crossbow or repair a shotgun. Leaving armor up to rng... fine. I enjoy randomness when it comes to luxuries and things with reasonably equivalent alternatives.

 

In a17, I have started probably 12-15 games. I don't play them exactly the same. I have multiple choices that I make based on what I need. I don't find knowing that I can definitely eventually make my own concrete to be boring. I find it reassuring. I could care less about whether/when I can craft guns, different types of armor, electrical items... most things in the game. Rng is fine for almost everything.

 

If I can never craft med kits, I will save the ones I find/buy for truly desperate situations and rely on first aid bandages. If I can't craft those, I'll rely on aspirin/drinks/regular bandages. There are reasonably equivalent alternatives to regaining health.

 

In previous alphas, if I didn't find a crossbow book, I used a regular bow or a compound bow. There were reasonably equivalent alternatives to be able to make stealth kills. The gun/guns I used most wouldn't be the one I never found the schematic for. I would use whichever one/ones I did find.

 

I could care less that I can dump points into intellect and craft almost everything. I don't do that. If I find an iron pickaxe, fire axe, and a wrench early (which so far I almost always have) I feel no need to rush being able to craft tools. I have crafted guns above q2 in 2 playthroughs. Others I have found or bought a couple q5-6 guns and made do with using those most of the time. I rely on bought/found armor. If I am close to both a trader and a city, I don't bother with vehicles above the minibike.

 

While you say I probably shouldn't be playing survival games, I greatly enjoy playing this one this alpha. I also enjoyed every alpha before this one that I have played, although this one is my favorite. I have also enjoyed playing rust and ark. So why should I stop playing them, when I enjoy them as they are?

[BioFringe]

It always seemed to me that a large portion of 7 Days fans had played "survival" games like Ark and Rust only to have found them wanting. This is where 7 Days shines. Giving those players an actual survival game based on adapting to your situation. It would then seem to me that if players from those other games are now finding A17 to be the best alpha yet then the rest of us might be in trouble here.

 

Having said that, I loaded up 17.2 last night and I'm ready for a fresh run this morning with my fresh cup of coffee. So I'll see for myself soon enough. No matter what though I won't be comparing the game to A16 because I didn't care that much for it as A15 was my favorite so far.

 

To the point of the thread...I can still find a new video whenever I'm interested so it still seems about the same to me. Maybe it's not such a big deal to me because earlier alphas didn't have half as many creators as the past couple have had so even if it was less than A16 it's still more than before that.

 

Lastly...Guppy is right. Leave it at that and start to listen. The guy knows his stuff. Although, I have seen him play and he does in fact SUCK so we also know he's humble and tells the truth even at the risk of harm to his self image.

 

Peace

[meganoth]

Some like the certainty of things happening in a specific order controlled by the game, some (dare I say most? Why yes, yes I do) prefer player controlled uncertainty.

 

...have fun with that phrase.

 

I'm in the group that wants no LBD but more randomness and even random gates. Lots more. The beaker is good, we need more of that.

 

I feel like in A17 I'm always keeping eye on the XP bar so I could reach the next level so I could get that required perk.

 

The xp bar has to go and the xp popups as well. I say so and I'm speaking for the vast majority of people like Ghostlight does

[xXBadDreamXx]

Things were changed so you could't grind XP like A15 and A16 like medicine and armor and wellness. The grind was all different activities. It was replaced with 1 grind activity. Popping XP pinatas. It's still a grind. Just a different kind. Any game has alternate methods of grinding up XP which are often tedious and unappealing but theres always some nerd thats gunna do it and grind it out and they'll get a huge feeling of accomplishment from it and love it. Everyone else will call them a stupid nerd.

These aspects of the game aren't really damaging to the gameplay as long it isn't easy to grind exp like this and i always found it to be endearing quirks of the game and I liked it. I felt it gave freedom to people to play the game they wanted and didn't harm anything fundamental about the game. It gave people that loved to grind, something to do. Just my 2 cents