Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Thecolours]

Run speed = random? That could be cool. I mean per zombie too, not global.

 

Yes, please. Give it to us as an option.

[Menace312]

Hi, my a13 save doesn't work and your company sucks because you devs are too lazy to fix it, and that's why no one buys your game anymore; I've seen the steam reviews so I know, so I'm leaving and never returning. If you listened to me, you'd all be profit sharing millionaires because I took some gwbasic classes back in the 80's so I have a VERY good understanding of how to make games!

 

gorilla.bas for life!

 

What's a gorilla.bas?

[LewZephyr]

What's a gorilla.bas?

 

An early form of Scorched Earth or Worms type game.

 

[Gellidus]

for those who doubt it... there is ore down there, you just gotta dig around...

 

 

I think its still too scarce - Considering i can get 5 different ores from bolders on the surface, why spends hours underground for a chance at what you have shown?

[F6Knight]

Hey TFP. Are there any more plans to balance buy/sell prices at the trader and improve quest distance based on the quest tier?

His potential feels rather wasted to me at the moment, especially in B238 with sell values being cut in half.

 

I just spent a few hours being a spreadsheet warrior to see if I could make a profit by buying all materials from a trader and turning them into items to sell. I've checked with all firearms and bows and have noticed that there are only 2 items that can make a profit if better barter was working as stated on the perk description (it currently it not, I already posted in the bug report thread).

 

And those are the compound bow and the crossbow. At 5/5 better barter, a tier 6 compound bow can make you 15 dukes profit (if you gather your own plant fibers) and a tier 6 crossbow can make you 90 dukes profit.

Pastebin: https://pastebin.com/18HwA9rH

Take note that I've calculated all prices using 50% better buy/sell prices from better barter and NOT how the better barter prices are currently bugged in B238 (5% per level better buy and 100% per level better sell)

In B238 you can still sell a tier 6 compound bow for 4320 dukes.

 

Maybe this is not how to intend people to play the game but I can't be the only one who once in a while wants to try a build that relies heavily on the trader for survival? And for that to work, there must be a way to make a profit using only items offered by the trader.

 

 

As for quests, it feels like a kick in the nuts when I'm level 2-3 and go to the trader for a tier 1 quest, only to be offered 5 quests that are all 4-6km away.

Can quest distance be tied to the difficulty tier of the quest?

For example, tier 1 quests are never more than 1km away, all the way up to tier 5 or 6 (whatever is the highest) quests being max 5-6km away but they can also be much closer. This makes quests a much more viable option from the beginning of the game when you don't have vehicles yet.

[Trunks_Budo]

I think its still too scarce - Considering i can get 5 different ores from bolders on the surface, why spends hours underground for a chance at what you have shown?

 

I was mining into the base of a hill at ground-level, I found tons of iron in there. Basically you don't need to be on bedrock, just find a hill with boulders on it, and mine into the base of the hill. I find it's easier to locate iron now

[Dauthiatull]

for those who doubt it... there is ore down there, you just gotta dig around...

 

 

it seems like the iron ore is always close to the surface and only the biom specific ore near bedrock

[Menace312]

An early form of Scorched Earth or Worms type game.

 

 

Ah thanks... God to know I'm not the oldest here... Scorched Earth! I remember that one... But not ancient enough for the gorilla.bas thing...

 

Remember Rampage?

[DaVegaNL]

Its supposed to be good stuff. It is game staged though, so maybe there is some junk in there yet. On some mid game chars I got some pretty nice stuff.

 

Ah yeah if the loot game stage defined it makes sense. I was level 1 when I got that loot bag.

[unholyjoe]

it seems like the iron ore is always close to the surface and only the biom specific ore near bedrock

 

more or less, yes i agree.

 

also for others who keep saying you dont need to dig to bedrock... jimminy crickets.. i opened a large hole to see what is in there all the way down, people.. chill out please. i dont see where any one said you had to dig to bedrock.

 

hell if i wouldnt have done that, then someone would have had to prove a point that i didnt dig deep enough. cant win because of critics.

[Erik Louden]

I have a pretty beefy rig and I'm running the game at max graphics but I'm seeing large boulders, buildings and zeds pop into existence or shift in and out of high/low LOD.

 

Why is this?

[The Gronk]

I have a pretty beefy rig and I'm running the game at max graphics but I'm seeing large boulders, buildings and zeds pop into existence or shift in and out of high/low LOD.

 

Why is this?

 

Because the distance at which a LOD mesh is removed is slightly different than the distance at which another LOD mesh is instantiated to replace it.

 

It doesn't matter how good your graphics card is, if the computer hasn't been told to display a mesh it ain't gonna show it.

[Gnomaana]

It wasn't needed for solo play so much IMO, but with team EXP bonuses people were unlocking INT10 features on day 5, which gives their group end game tech, so we had to put level gates in. I have no problem with level gates on super powerful perks, I just didn't like them on attributes. There are still plenty of good perks to enjoy at attribute level 10 so specialization is rewarding.

 

The only other option was to make rare ingredients in the crafts, or make recipes super grindy, and noone wants to go there.

 

 

I want it to go there. I like being forced to explore and explore and explore until I find that item I need.

[Erik Louden]

Because the distance at which a LOD mesh is removed is slightly different than the distance at which another LOD mesh is instantiated to replace it.

 

It doesn't matter how good your graphics card is, if the computer hasn't been told to display a mesh it ain't gonna show it.

 

But why is it setup that way?

 

And can I change it somewhere, like push the LOD distance way out?

[F6Knight]

It wasn't needed for solo play so much IMO, but with team EXP bonuses people were unlocking INT10 features on day 5, which gives their group end game tech, so we had to put level gates in. I have no problem with level gates on super powerful perks, I just didn't like them on attributes. There are still plenty of good perks to enjoy at attribute level 10 so specialization is rewarding.

 

The only other option was to make rare ingredients in the crafts, or make recipes super grindy, and noone wants to go there.

 

As a mostly SP player I feel very punished now. In B233 I worked really hard to survive with only INT to rush to the forge/minibike and it felt really rewarding getting my minibike on day 7 by sacrificing everything else. No farm, no bonus damage or carry capacity, no better stealth, no extra health/stamina or automatic healing, ...

The minibike was my approach to get more stamina (not using stamina to travel) and more carry capacity (storage in the bike instead of in my backpack).

After I got that, I started putting points in better barter to improve my gear through the trader to offset the physical weakness of my character. But that's gone now too with selling prices cut in half.

 

Another problem with the current system is that you said you don't want people to get powerful perks early game, but the ONLY perks gated behind levels right now are "hammer & forge", "grease monkey" and "advanced engineering".

So you just don't want people to get iron/steel tools, weapons and crafting stations early.

Everything else is fine apparently. You can rush to strength or perception 10 and level 5 in any weapon perk by the time you hit level 24. How is that ok but getting a forge on day 3 isn't? The whole idea of no level gates was that you could go for an early forge if you sacrificed everything else.

 

The system with gating perks behind levels is better than the previous system with gating attributes though. At least now I'm spending most of my points when leveling instead of saving up 8-10 points for that next "tier" of an attribute. But either gate more perks behind levels or remove the level gates again because now you're just focusing blindly on "oh no, we don't want people to get a forge and iron/steel tools early" while it's only really a problem in large groups sharing xp.

 

And this is where the problem really lies imho. In the current xp sharing mechanism.

It basically creates bonus xp out of thin air.

A large group of players sharing xp will still get high level fairly early in a new game.

A regular zombie is worth 550xp but with xp sharing with 2 people in group, each person gets almost 500xp. Almost doubling the xp a single zombie is worth.

Why not just split the 550 xp by the amount of players in the group?

 

Maybe even add a tickbox on the "player" menu where you can toggle xp sharing on or off. If you don't want to share your xp with your team when you clear a POI or horde, you can turn it off, but then you also don't receive shared xp anymore from your team. It's just a random idea while I'm typing this, and probably a poor one, but I thought I'll throw it out there anyway.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to the next (several) patches.

[The Gronk]

But why is it setup that way?

 

And can I change it somewhere, like push the LOD distance way out?

 

That's internal stuff, you shouldn't really have to mess with it at all.

 

Relax, it's on the "known bugs" list so it'll get fixed eventually.

 

LOD systems are put in place to speed up performance, not only of the graphics card but also the CPU and RAM. There's been an LOD system in for quite some time but it's only now that it's broken that you're noticing it.

[Hek Harris]

I want it to go there. I like being forced to explore and explore and explore until I find that item I need.

Have fun with the recipe.xml.

 

So I have Repair Kits and a compound Bow and I am level 4, why can't I repair the bow? Repair and a level 25 gate to make one should not be the same.

It works for me. Try again : I had a bug that did'nt allow me to repair my stone axe. I quitted and restarted and it was fine.

[DanMan]

Is there a place where we can see update notes for each version as it changes? TFPs are doing a great job with the experimental builds... it seems like every few days there is a new version. I just can't find where the change log is.

 

Thanks in advance.

[The Gronk]

Is there a place where we can see update notes for each version as it changes? TFPs are doing a great job with the experimental builds... it seems like every few days there is a new version. I just can't find where the change log is.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

There's one as the first post of every bug reporting thread.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?101053-Alpha-17-Experimental-B238-bug-reporting-thread

[JCrook1028]

I dislike the direction alpha 17 is going... I wanted no level gates, and they implemented that, which was great, but they made it so it required way more points to level up, which basically made it go from "all skills are temporarily gated" to "some skills will be permanently gated, depending on your character build". Then there's the new decision they made, adding level gates to crafting skills in the intellect tree; I dislike this strongly. I had a system: On first week, build two reinforced concrete towers 9 blocks apart and bridge them with wooden frames, and use molotovs on the first blood moon to not only survive, but get tons of exp. Then the next week, before 14 day blood moon, I would craft iron bars to replace the wood frames I used to bridge both towers, and I would unlock blade traps in this time as well; Dismantle cars, get engines, generator banks, etc. I know how effective blade traps are, so I specialized my character with a heavy emphasis on intellect, and I was well on my way to having that. I just had a few points in fortitude, farming, and well-insulated to help with my survival. But now the blade trap thing is gone, you can't get it until level 60, but yesterday, I had blade traps AND steel tools unlocked by level 35, because I CHOSE to SPECIALIZE in intellect right from the start of the game. Caps are for emphasis, I'm not angry. In my opinion, TFP is ruining alpha 17 every time they try to improve it. It's a survival simulator, not a dying simulator, yet it seems they're intent on doing whatever it takes to make sure you're cornered into dying as often as possible. They removed underground safe bases, they removed the ability to have blade traps by the day 14 blood moon, they just keep screwing people over. I think there's a real disconnect between what TFP does and what the players want. Just my opinion. I'd like to see no level gates at all, with enough points by level 200 to max everything out. Who cares if characters eventually become God mode? They will have to earn that, and they will have to spend their skill points wisely if they want to survive while also maximizing their kill/death ratio. The game is hard enough, yet they seem to be intent on making it harder and harder at the expense of the satisfaction it once brought. Just a thought of mine. I feel like the experience has majorly downgraded since the launch of A17 experimental, because TFP can't consult with the players and come to a good decision about the level gating. We keep deleting our worlds every 3-7 days because of their frequent updates, but it adds insult to injury when the experience becomes worse and worse with each update. I wouldn't mind deleting my world and starting over, if it wasn't progressively getting worse and worse. Again that's just my opinion, I don't know if people share my opinion on this matter, but that's how I feel. We should be allowed to specialize however we choose and have a sense of linear progression in our elected specialization, without the constraint of level gates or ridiculous point costs in attributes. Nerfing attribute costs but adding level gates to key crafting perks is a tremendous waste of an update, it's like they can't add a positive aspect to the game without introducing a new negative aspect to it. I'm disappointed and quitting for the time being, I'm majorly turned-off from the 7 days to die experience because TFP have ruined it. Again it's just all my opinion, but that's how I feel in the current climate of the game state.

 

pro tip - if you want anybody to actually read your wall of text, use some paragraphs. Holy Bleeding Eyes Batman!!

[DanMan]

Oh, wow... I looked right over and didn't notice. Thank you!

[Qyzer]

So y'all gave no level caps a try for what, 10 minutes before returning to the old system?

 

:sadface:

...

 

They didn't really give them a try, they removed them, didn't change perk cost or levels much at all, then threw their hands up and said "see, told ya they don't work."

 

I like this change. And they lowered the attribute costs.

 

People say no level gates. But you need some kind of gate. Level gates, rng gates, or skill point gates. Something has to be there to tell the player "no, you cant have that now, work twords it"

 

Without that there's no progression.

 

Agreed, but having a point system and level gates is pointless (pun maybe intended :-) ). I KNOW the designers here aren't lazy (their other results speak well for their hard work and devotion), but they aren't using half the potential of their point system. Progression generally means working towards something. Working towards the forge, earning the points listed that it costs, but having to go do other things, just to level, doesn't feel like progression, it feels like grinding. Giving me things to buy along the way, towards the forge, even if it takes the same number of levels, feels more like progression and a LOT less like grinding something else to get what I want.

 

This is just me but, I would like certain things like the 'Forge', not able to be made till you find a working one the player can take apart.

Once you fully break it down (like a reverse-engineering), the recipe for it becomes unlocked and notifies the player a new recipe is available.

 

Also would like for these types of 'Items' that have the capability of shifting your characters tech stages, to be placed in highly dangerous places filled with zeds or whatnot.

 

Still has a gate of sorts, but not necessarily level gated.

 

Area difficulty and location gating is something I'd LOVE to see in this game, instead of ANY kind of other gating, but I'm either going to have to create that mod or hope someone else does it for me. We sort of have/had it with harder spawns in the wasteland and the old hub city, but it doesn't seem to be the direction the designers are headed.

 

It was an experiment. We thought that it could work. Would work.

It did not.

...

 

You have to actually create a decent experiment first before you can say it failed, you didn't. You just dropped the level requirements, changed the cost per level to 1.2 and then mostly walked away. If you don't want Forges until level 10, and give the player 1 point per level (+4 for a starter quest) then you make it so the perks to get to Forge cost at least 14 points (and people get to do something that allows them to show progress towards the forge while they wait, instead of just "level some more"). I get it, you are working hard on other things, I DO appreciate all the hard work, but don't call a half-measure a failure or a success until you get the chance to actually try it. Yes, it's experimental, but if you aren't going to give it half a chance, then please don't experiment on it.

 

The big thing for me was no level caps for attributes. You can still specialize now, but anything too game changing will get a level gate behind it.

 

Maybe the problem is that the thing is too game changing and the thing needs to be changed. I know you all get it, making Anvil a later perk is a good example of this, so I can see you all are working on it, just please stop using kludgy solutions like level gating.

[FileMachete]

I'm a bit concerned that having the same Perk setup for both Single & Multi-player games is tilting at windmills.

 

In general, specializing in MP will always be a bit easier. Something as simple as Pack Mule. If a MP group goes out on a POI run chances are that there will be a number of items that stack, allowing 1 slot out of the _groups_ total slots to be occupied. Similar w Food & Water, Wood, etc. Again, in general, not always, depends on group/individuals, but it's likely to be less important in a group to buy Pack Mule. Even a 'solo' Hunter of a group who might well need Pack Mule won't have to spec into making/building/chef/med, what have you, if another member does.

 

For arguments sake factor in the _possibility_ that, via shared xp, higher combined GS, larger hordes, etc., the group may well level faster than a single player. Again, generalities.

 

In single player, even for a playthrough/style where the single doesn't choose to partake in base building, or even chooses to rely on loot/traders for tools/weapons, there are likely still a few points they'll choose to spend that they might not in a co-op game.

 

Looking at the other extreme of a single player who desires to engage in all the game offers, base building, tool/weapon crafting, medical, chef, etc. Add in that some of those activities result in less xp/hr and it seems a reasonable, hypothetical conclusion, that hours played to reach X will be significantly different.

 

I'm not against MP at all, wish my friends still gamed, nor do I have an opinion on whether or not 'time to X' should be at all similar between SP & MP. I'm just wondering if, ultimately, trying to balance a single set of 'rules' for both will ever culminate in a truely agreeable compromise.

[Jay_ombie]

Love the current build.

 

Packs of dogs swarming me out from buildings...

 

Z's ambushing me and a funny moment when a Vulture got inside a building and was going manic trying to get out. Took a while to aim and arrow that buzzard..

 

Feels right....

 

Feels fun......

[Minimi1301]

The birds are already very disturbing and clearly too straight. is it working on that?