Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[meilodasreh]

3 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Why the pimps spout this term when you know you’d never use it in nearly any other context or even face to face with another person is beyond me.

 

See that mountain top in the distance? It is exactly 12miles away. You start where you are, and the goal you have in mind is absolutely clear to you.

So you know the distance, you know where you want to be at the and, and you also know exactly how fast you can go (distance per time).

Now you tell me how long it will take you, its absolutely easy, just do the math.

 

Of course, it absolutely doesn't matter that you can't see how many obstacles there are along the way.

And if there are differences that occur during your steady progress, those definitely cannot slow your pace no matter what there may come!

 

...or does it matter?

[meganoth]

Guys, Fanatical_Meat is talking about the form, not the information in the message. 80% of you replying to FM are knocking on the wrong doors.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

...

”When it’s done” is not an answer it is designed to avoid the question.

 

Oh yes, it is. It is exactly equivalent to "We give out no dates" and everyone with the capacity to understand a circumlocution gets the meaning.

 

 

[Morloc]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

The answer has always been "Its done when it's done. That is the catch phrase that has always been the answer. It is what we mean and it is what we say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

Edited November 17, 2022 by Morloc (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

everyone with the capacity to understand

.....aaaaaaand I'm out

[Roland]

25 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 

If your intent was to exact revenge upon me by making me spray orange juice out my nose then well played!

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Except you didn't "deposit" any check. You bought a pair of socks, and you're acting like you own the business now.

 

TFP is a GAME dev studio... next time you want to complain about not having hard cut-off dates or shareholder reports, I suggest you do it with the Microsoft customers department, or with any other "regular" business.

 

Also, being professional, and being serious are not necessarily the same. "It's done when it's done" is perfectly fine for a dev studio which doesn't have a publisher breathing down their necks. They chose to have this kind of freedom so that they could take their time to create their own dream game (Joel's and Rick's words).

 

My small theory : People are frustrated for some time. i see in few diffrent games situation similiar way of thinking - more and more people are asking about released date of EA/full version/dlc. Because they just want.... something positive. small thing that can make them feel better

[JamesKirk]

32 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

You can see me fighting 😂 It's time for A21 to drop. My friends and I are currently playing another game. Get us back!

[Roland]

1 hour ago, JamesKirk said:

You can see me fighting 😂 It's time for A21 to drop.

 

You've still got your shirt on. We're nowhere close to the climax of the scene. My God, Jim! I'm a moderator, not a miracle worker!!

[Laran Mithras]

Lately, I see a lot of players absolutely demanding rigid timetables and promises kept.

I think this is beyond just a game-thing - and most definitely not limited to 7DTD.

 

I'm happy with "when it's done." I don't want "buggy unplayable mess" that brings in 10X as many complaints and scorn because a timetable was kept. Some people are just never satisfied.

[outhous]

2 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

 

”When it’s done” is not an answer it is designed to avoid the question.

It is an answer, one you just seem to refuse to accept, that's a 'you' problem.

[crazywildfire]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

My small theory : People are frustrated for some time. i see in few diffrent games situation similiar way of thinking - more and more people are asking about released date of EA/full version/dlc. Because they just want.... something positive. small thing that can make them feel better

 

But on the flip side if they don't make said date and delay it or even release it unplayable then you back to negative again. So what poison do you want? What poison is better? I can't speak for everyone but I would take the "when it's done" poison vs delay/unplayable poison. Besides if they have no deadlines to investors and only fan base then nothing wrong with when it's done approach. I'm sure they are happy they only have to deal with a small % of people that don't like that answer vs the oh we have to delay % of people response. Just means they get things as close as possible more less problems. Besides it has seemed to work well for them for years now with that way of thinking so why change it when they don't have to just to please a very small % of people. Just my opinion of course. 

[maxousara]

2 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Everyone with the capacity to understand. I love this answers its time people understand its not with spam the same message everyday for have a date they will give us a date just wait and see. Me i have this capacity not everyone have

 

[beerfly]

8 minutes ago, Laran Mithras said:

Lately, I see a lot of players absolutely demanding rigid timetables and promises kept.

I think this is beyond just a game-thing - and most definitely not limited to 7DTD.

 

I'm happy with "when it's done." I don't want "buggy unplayable mess" that brings in 10X as many complaints and scorn because a timetable was kept. Some people are just never satisfied.

That part, when a new alpha is out, when we finally got a proper seed and start a new game.

 

The first day goes like woosh. Then first night comes, waiting for it to pass, hidden somewhere.

 

Early in the morning, running out, jumping around, charged with so many new ideas. 

 

Indeed, let the pimps, pimp. 

[Doomofman]

I don't think the change in approach from TFP in terms of showing off the next alpha has helped in terms of people's impatience

 

A19 and A20 had half a dozen dev streams and a few play through videos each before they released and I feel like (though maybe I'm misremembering) that we saw much more of A19 and A20 on the forums than this time around, the pretty anemic (in terms of major changes) first post is a good example of this

 

While the cryptic clues and such were fun, I think there was an expectation set with the last two alphas on the amount of information we'd see about the next alpha that has been turned on it's head somewhat with this more closed off approach

 

I'm not saying the A19/A20 approach was better than the current approach or vice versa, but I can't help but feel A21 has been a regression in terms of openness with the dedicated players who frequent these forums which is bound to lead to some negative feelings from some

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, Gamida said:

Little bit of contradictory posts there isn't it

See, we are all subject to the itch of information.

Not at all. The only one to see contradiction in my posts is you.

Asking if they're going to release more info on the upcoming update is not even in the same ballpark as demanding for a release date. 

[Fanatical_Meat]

43 minutes ago, outhous said:

It is an answer, one you just seem to refuse to accept, that's a 'you' problem.

Again you’d never say that to someone face to face so why is it fine with anonymity? 
In my opinion it’s something people don’t have the guts to do in person so they do it when there are zero consequences.

I have a thing for words and I find the “when it’s done” a completely unacceptable answer mostly due to reasons above. If you are good with it that’s fine. You are free to have your own choice.

[Jost Amman]

9 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Again you’d never say that to someone face to face so why is it fine with anonymity? 

Actually, that's exactly the reason they use those words.

You're as anonymous to them as they are to you, so there's no personal attack or malice in that reply: it's the same for everyone.

 

And by the way, what would you do if you were face to face with them, and they answered that way? Hit them?

That would be an assault charge and legal problems for you (on top of not getting the answer).

 

I don't understand why you've suddenly become so demanding and easily offended.

As I said before, this is a game forum. Let's save our indignation for far more serious matters!

[Fanatical_Meat]

Just now, Jost Amman said:

Actually, that's exactly the reason they use those words.

You're as anonymous to them as they are to you, so there's no personal attack or malice in that reply: it's the same for everyone.

 

And by the way, what would you do if you were face to face with them, and they answered that way? Hit them?

That would be an assault charge and legal problems for you (on top of not getting the answer).

 

I don't understand why you've suddenly become so demanding and easily offended.

As I said before, this is a game forum. Let's save our indignation for far more serious matters!

Where did you get a threat or the thought I’d hit them? That’s crazy.

Try using when it’s ready with your boss or how about a subordinate uses “when it’s done” with you.

It is a crappy incomplete answer. Everyone should speak what they mean and not hide behind trite sayings and such. A question was asked and answer should be given. Don’t avoid questions about stuff that is relevant and important.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Doomofman said:

While the cryptic clues and such were fun

 

The bright spot of all TFP A21 communication is how I would put it.

[Roland]

32 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Try using when it’s ready with your boss or how about a subordinate uses “when it’s done” with you.

 

We're not your bank, we're not your boss, you're not our boss. Let's have an end to this. You don't like the phrase. Got it. You don't think we should continue to use it. Got it. 

 

If you want to keep coming up with completely non-relevant relationships in which this phrase would be questionably inappropriate in a face-to-face conversation be my guest but this is not going to clutter up the dev diary any longer.

[Fanatical_Meat]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

We're not your bank, we're not your boss, you're not our boss. Let's have an end to this. You don't like the phrase. Got it. You don't think we should continue to use it. Got it. 

 

If you want to keep coming up with completely non-relevant relationships in which this phrase would be questionably inappropriate in a face-to-face conversation be my guest but this is not going to clutter up the dev diary any longer.

Okay try it with an investor or a sales prospect.

however as I said everyone is free to their own opinion. I really hate those words for items I have already stated. Not my company to manage or run. Pimps May run it however they feel. I would never agree to an incomplete answer like has been spoken of as a communication.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Fanatical_Meat (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

36 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Try using when it’s ready with your boss or how about a subordinate uses “when it’s done” with you.

 

Not the same situation.

 

When I work on a project at work, I have specific tasks that I can figure out how long they will normally take so I can give more specific time frames.  I know everything I need to do to install that new piece of equipment and get it signed off by safety for use.

 

When they are working on the next Alpha release, they have a list of features that they wish to include in the next build, but know that every feature they want may not be ready in time.  So what they do is get to a point and decide what features they want to push through to get in the next Alpha build.  At that point, they know what needs to get done and what needs to go to the side for the next Alpha release.

 

That's why Roland has not listed features for A21 at the very beginning.  More than likely they had a wish list of everything they want to include in A21, but as time progress and issues popped up, items were pushed back to later Alphas.  That is why he is only posting the features that they have committed to releasing in A21.  Once a final decision on what changes / features to include in A21 is when they can start firming up the time to do the remaining work, and when it will be ready to start doing the Developer streams on the various features.

 

They are using a more dynamic system to determine release dates based on what is ready to go out as a development build (based on what the developers want to release), rather than a fixed date already established and items are shipped out no matter what state they are in.

 

But the good news is, we can still play A20 while waiting for A21.  Or if you are tired of A20, consider any of those other games you have in your gaming library  as a break from 7D2D until A21 is released.  That is what I am doing currently so I don't feel any frustration if A21 drops next week or end of year or 1st quarter of 2023.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, crazywildfire said:

 

But on the flip side if they don't make said date and delay it or even release it unplayable then you back to negative again. So what poison do you want? What poison is better? I can't speak for everyone but I would take the "when it's done" poison vs delay/unplayable poison. Besides if they have no deadlines to investors and only fan base then nothing wrong with when it's done approach. I'm sure they are happy they only have to deal with a small % of people that don't like that answer vs the oh we have to delay % of people response. Just means they get things as close as possible more less problems. Besides it has seemed to work well for them for years now with that way of thinking so why change it when they don't have to just to please a very small % of people. Just my opinion of course. 

Well people are afraid. It was working for years because situation was looking diffrent that in 2015.  it's not "  "when it's done" poison vs delay/unplayable poison " for some people mind but  " get never A21 vs delay/unplayable poison" . People want NMRINH2, COH3 , Hogward etc. now because are... tired and worry that "there is no later anymore". Bad things happens around the world so.... they just to focus on bugged alpha that just... waiting. I undestand them - if they would be frustrated about bugs? probably. But still better to focus mind on bugs in game right?

[Matt115]

5 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

But the good news is, we can still play A20 while waiting for A21.  Or if you are tired of A20, consider any of those other games you have in your gaming library  as a break from 7D2D until A21 is released.  That is what I am doing currently so I don't feel any frustration if A21 drops next week or end of year or 1st quarter of 2023.

Uh... problem is that many games are delay now + people want now because  well they are not sure what will happend after month

[Pernicious]

1 hour ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Okay try it with an investor or a sales prospect.

 

I'm guessing you've never bought a house off the plan: https://www.heritage.com.au/financial-tips/buying-a-home/sunset-clause-in-qld

 

"When will it be ready?"

"Roughly this date - but if we can sell it at a higher price to someone else, we'll just delay to make it legal"

 

Insane? Absolutely. Who would sign that? Thousands of people per year.

 

Likewise, people are putting deposits down for Teslas, with no firm delivery date. In fact, the problem has expanded to all cars: https://www.canstar.com.au/car-insurance/new-car-delivery-time-australia/

 

You seem to have a very naive view of the world. Even in employment... 25 years ago, I had to do Project Management 101 in my Comp Sci. Degree. There was a joke about "Real Soon Now" being an acceptable time frame to give for when a release would be ready. No, a junior laborer - or even a coder would never get away with such an answer in a unironic way. But a supplier - while having to coach it in more polite terms - does and will get away with this all the time, and it's accepted in the industry - in all industries from software to cars to building.