Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Roland]

53 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Game about zombies is about.... zombies while zombies are underdeveloped element. If it had "comic" art style like their are bilion of bordelands - small number of variants isn't a problem. In Killing floor or serious sam there is told that enemies are literaly clones. 

7dtd have realistic art style like - dayz , the forest or forza horizon.  So yeah - you need many diffrent looking fans on stands in FiFA - so you need much more models of zombie in 7dtd where you can find in small house 3 this same zombies

 

TFP have not stated that they are done with zombie models. They have only stated that right now they are focused on raider and player models. They have enough zombie models in the game to be "good enough" for testing and development. Once all features are in the game they may focus on filling in gaps and adding variety. They are already to that point with POIs where they are now adding a huge variety of them. There is no statement by them that I'm aware of to indicate that they won't do the same with zombies at some point if they can. What they have stated is that they want the game to look good so in my mind that seems like it should include not having a wandering horde made up of five zombies and their dozen clones all in lockstep with each other.  Nobody thinks that looks good.  I'm optimistic this is something that will be addressed at some point but I could always be wrong.

[Dreyseth]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

but I could always be wrong.

 

no, sorry.  You've been right right far too many times.   Skews your average away from the "always being wrong" designation.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Game about zombies is about.... zombies while zombies are underdeveloped element. If it had "comic" art style like their are bilion of bordelands - small number of variants isn't a problem. In Killing floor or serious sam there is told that enemies are literaly clones. 

7dtd have realistic art style like - dayz , the forest or forza horizon.  So yeah - you need many diffrent looking fans on stands in FiFA - so you need much more models of zombie in 7dtd where you can find in small house 3 this same zombies

How many hours have you played this game? I bet it is very high.  That suggests you enjoy playing the game.  So is it that the lack of different kinds of zombies makes the game bad or not fun or in any way affects your fun, or is it that you have played the game so much that the lack of variety is getting boring?  I mean, the lack of variety in POI and blocks and textures also makes the game boring after playing a lot and I pay more attention to those than I do zombies.  I just kill the zombies. I don't pay much attention to what one it is or what it looks like. I just kill it.  Now, variety in their skins rather than additional zombies would be helpful in keeping it from looking like a dozen of the exact same zombies attacking you in a row, but more types aren't really important.  Besides, even with the types we have now, it doesn't affect how I kill them.  I may prioritize who I kill based on what ones are there (vultures and dogs die first) and I'll hit the bomb on the demolisher while it isn't close, but when it comes down to it, I just kill them the same way regardless of what type they are.  They would need to redesign combat to make having more types actually have value beyond just cosmetics.  As I said, this isn't a deeper game where having hundreds of types of enemies matters.  It is just fine with what it has now.  I'm not opposed to more, but I'm also not going to use even a well-designed mod that adds zombies because I don't see any real need.  Of course, this is only my opinion.

[Matt115]

4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

That's not simple... it's just that the player starts not knowing the game much.

Exactly like in 7D2D: you start by doing simple stuff, and after a while you find out about much more complicated stuff.

There is complicate stuff Jost... okay i will give you example from 7DTD - you want a gun? find a crate. what will change in future let's say after 10 hours? you will be able to find in exactly this same house this "better" gun. And that's it. Nothing more nothing less. Farming - no matter what you find aloa or potato - you make farm plot and that's it.  except that mushrooms have to be undeground . In valheim in theory you can put everywhere but you have to remember that enemies can brake easy you harvest - plus you have seed harvest and edible harvest + taming animals so you have to  know how much you can spend to  feed animals etc.

in 7dtd have meadows , black forest , swamp mountain  plains mistland and ocean. Meadows are just calm zone  with weak enemies etc. and that's  and except new thing that after kiling last boss will spawn mistland  type of enemy in every biome -  nothing will change here. black forest is a litte bit harder but swamp - poison and slow down water, mountain - cold and flying enemies. In 7dtd in theory there is similiar thing - in civilian zone you can met civilian in  military base soldiers etc. but after X gamestage - you can find zombie soldiers radomly but after x time you will find everything everywhere. In older variants at least there existed "snow " variants but instead develep that idea it was removed.

7dtd workstations have upgrades - which give you feeling of doing well. In 7dtd in theory it's working similiar but...  here you don't have reasons for that- you make advance workbench? you can't because you can't find better parts because you have to be in better gamestage - but you unlock this not by dunno -  loot military bunkier but just do this over and over and over - you could get max tier just sitting if forest with primitive club.  In valheim you can risk a lot ot get the best arrow in the game early - and you get reward. here no matter if you loot house and big tower - you will get this same reward.  nothing change - in valheim you could get  iron items before kiling first boss so it could be good reward. here is no reward - you get better but world get hard so.. change nothing. it's likei would give you a apple but anothet guy would take this apple from you so after all nothing changed

[maxousara]

2 weeks absent and i see nothing news. Just 10 pages of blabla

[Riamus]

27 minutes ago, maxousara said:

2 weeks absent and i see nothing news. Just 10 pages of blabla

Pretty normal. There are going to be tons of posts complaining about A21 without ever having tried it until it releases.  😅

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

TFP have not stated that they are done with zombie models. They have only stated that right now they are focused on raider and player models. They have enough zombie models in the game to be "good enough" for testing and development. Once all features are in the game they may focus on filling in gaps and adding variety. They are already to that point with POIs where they are now adding a huge variety of them. There is no statement by them that I'm aware of to indicate that they won't do the same with zombies at some point if they can. What they have stated is that they want the game to look good so in my mind that seems like it should include not having a wandering horde made up of five zombies and their dozen clones all in lockstep with each other.  Nobody thinks that looks good.  I'm optimistic this is something that will be addressed at some point but I could always be wrong.

I hope that you are right and Devs will comfirmed that. Because this would have sense what you saying. Because - honestly this is only option for me to came back to 7dtd. Because there is not mods that would add new zombies which keep vanilia style

[Blake_]

@Laz Man , could you give us a sense of the amount of "multiple POI paths" and POI submodules (tiny random variations, both in the street and inside while looting) of a21 vs a20?

 

Stuff like: Are they more abundant? Are they "better" than in a20? How are they better? Do they have easter eggs?

 

Tell us about caves. I'm a caveman, I love the topic. Will we get more caves for a21? 

 

Thanks beforearm.

[Aldranon]

With the small amount of information I have, A21 will be more satisfying than A20.

 

1) Getting to late game, alive, in A21 will be more challenging and so for me, more fun.

2) A "learn by" system that makes more sense than A20's learn by <upgrading vast concrete buildings> will help with challenge/emersion.

3) "Testimonies" of trustable people who have played A21 gives me confidence that A21 will be well worth the wait!

 

For the (normally) thinking people in this forum that complain about A21, I believe it's mostly misplaced frustration that it is taking longer than average.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Aldranon
spelling, as usual. (see edit history)

[DuHast_Play]

I read what has been going on here since my last visit to the forum. I agree that a variety of skins for existing zombies would spice up the game more. When they go, for example, the standard zombie Steve and 2 more versions but in different clothes. 3-4 skins for each, I think it would be nice. Or make a randomizer with body parts in different clothes. According to the technology of the player's clothes. so that pants, parts of the torso, hats and shoes are randomized.

But I'm already satisfied with what I have, as a big fan of the game, who has played more than 300 hours in a month ... very addictive) and even playing at 15 frames and freezing when opening storage (due to weak hardware) is not a hindrance)

[Jost Amman]

7 hours ago, Matt115 said:

In valheim in theory you can put everywhere but you have to remember that enemies can brake easy you harvest - plus you have seed harvest and edible harvest

And in 7D2D you have to craft a Farming Plot and collect the right ingredients. Then you have to remember that your crops must have access to light.

So what?

 

It seems to me that you like Valheim better. Great! 

Go play Valheim! But don't try to change 7D2D into Valheim, they're two completely different games with different play styles.

 

I tried Valheim, but I simply get bored after a while because there's so little to do, and so little to interact with compared to 7D2D. Of course, that's just my opinion, but I don't go on the Valheim forums and try to change Valheim into 7D2D, because I know the devs of that game have their own plan about their game and have their own "style" they wish to give to their own game.

 

In Valheim, IMO, they just give you the impression of progress. You always repeat the upgrade cycles over and over, but it's always the same stuff, they just give it a different skin and put a +1 on it. That's an old "trick" that MMOs all around the world have always used to entice people into keep playing. I don't like it.

 

In 7D2D, when you acquire an advantage (a new weapon, a workstation) that advantage is real, and it's meant to stay. When you start making concrete for the first time, it's a pivotal point in base building. You don't have to start over again to get Titanium, or Diamond (lol) to build a stronger base because the monsters have been granted a +1 or +2 in a new Biome.

[spud42]

15 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Ok, you lost me there... 

heard of a game called GO ? just a grid and black and white tokens. simlpe game. surround the opponents tokens and turn thm into yours. person with the most tokens wins. simple premise but  very subtle and complex .

[BFT2020]

22 minutes ago, spud42 said:

heard of a game called GO ? just a grid and black and white tokens. simlpe game. surround the opponents tokens and turn thm into yours. person with the most tokens wins. simple premise but  very subtle and complex .

 

That's a great example.  I was thinking of chess myself.  Each piece has a set of moves and that is all, but mastering the game is not simple, even though the pieces have simple moves.

[Jost Amman]

29 minutes ago, spud42 said:

heard of a game called GO ? just a grid and black and white tokens. simlpe game. surround the opponents tokens and turn thm into yours. person with the most tokens wins. simple premise but  very subtle and complex .

 

6 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

That's a great example.  I was thinking of chess myself.  Each piece has a set of moves and that is all, but mastering the game is not simple, even though the pieces have simple moves.

Ok, then we have very different definitions of "simple" and "complex".

When I define something complex, I don't stop at the basic understanding of it.

 

I define something simple or complex by considering the overall simpleness or complexity of it.

Otherwise, it's like I said before, if someone only knows "half of the story" (doesn't really know the game) he will think it's simple, just to realize later he was wrong.

 

But the original point was: is 7D2D a complex enough game? Matt115 thinks it's not.

In my opinion, however, simple or complex is irrelevant; the real question is: is it fun for you?

[meganoth]

But then GO is not a simple game, it just has simple rules.

 

About that whole discussion, previous alphas of 7D2D may have been more difficult but they were not really much more complex. Naturally the first alphas you played looked more complex and difficult to you since you were still learning the game. It is not easy to ignore that effect when you are reminiscing about the past.

 

Valheim has no difficulty setting and its only difficulty setting is much higher than default difficulty of 7D2D, maybe comparable to warrior diff in 7D2D or higher and with 25% loot !? It's loot setting can't be changed as well  and so it is much more grindy and again there is no choice for the player to change that. And many players mix up grind with complexity. Because of the set difficulty you never can relax, but its complexity is only once for the first playthrough. I have my doubts I will ever play Valheim again after the first playthrough.

 

In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

26 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

 

But the original point was: is 7D2D a complex enough game? Matt115 thinks it's not.

In my opinion, however, simple or complex is irrelevant; the real question is: is it fun for you?

 

I agree.  Complexity can actually be a hindrance to enjoyment for the average gamer.

For example, Paradox gaming makes games that are FAR from any point and click games.  They are also not popular for the average gamer.  Complex games are a niche.

[Aldranon]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity. 

 

 

The zombie AI does not adapt to the players constructs or methods and so it's simple.    One can enjoy that, I guess, but for me I like to let the zombie AI have a chance.  

 

I'm hoping that the raiders AI has several AI paths based on players actions.  That it (the AI) can have some raiders do one method (ie Hide) if shot at, while others will Shoot at the player, approach the player/ out flank the player.  Even "calling for help" by firing a flare gun if the player is "Rambo" would be great. 

You could layer that behavior with how much damage each Raider has recieved.

 

Fatal has something not quite that much I heard but maybe could be a A24-A26 thing?

[meganoth]

33 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

The zombie AI does not adapt to the players constructs or methods and so it's simple.    One can enjoy that, I guess, but for me I like to let the zombie AI have a chance. 

 

Huh? I don't know how you define "adapt" here, or if you are still playing A16? In A16 the AI was simple and at most "adapted" to the players position. After that the AI very much adapts to the players constructs. Build a pathway and they will recognize and follow it.

It even dynamically adapts to changes. Open a door or close a bridge and their approach may change. Even when they destroy some essential blocks by chance that might make a stairway out of a wall they WILL adapt to that new situation.

 

And that has nothing to do with whether to let the zombies have a chance or not. That can be had in ANY alpha of the game

 

33 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

I'm hoping that the raiders AI has several AI paths based on players actions.  That it (the AI) can have some raiders do one method (ie Hide) if shot at, while others will Shoot at the player, approach the player/ out flank the player.  Even "calling for help" by firing a flare gun if the player is "Rambo" would be great. 

You could layer that behavior with how much damage each Raider has recieved.

 

Compare the genre mix that 7D2D is to a dedicated team shooter and the team shooter will win. I think your expectations are a little too high here. Bandits will use cover so I hear, and I am happy about anything else that Faatal can provide, but especially since TFP also tries to codify parts of the AI in XML(!!!) there are limits to what is possible in acceptable time.

 

33 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

Fatal has something not quite that much I heard but maybe could be a A24-A26 thing?

 

I think the next step after A22 will be either a final beta or gold. A23 is possible if they need to adjust the bandits a lot. But that is pure guessing on my part.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[DuHast_Play]

I heard that alpha 22 will be the last before gold. I heard from one reviewer who also follows the news on this forum and communicates with the developers after any news ... anyway, time will tell

[unholyjoe]

meanwhile.... i'll bump up the amount of handkerchiefs to hand out when disappointment sets in.

 

wait a minute... why give them away... i'll sell them instead. wooot

 

Spoiler

nvm i wont say it

 

 

[Aldranon]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Huh? I don't know how you define "adapt" here, or if you are still playing A16? In A16 the AI was simple and at most "adapted" to the players position. After that the AI very much adapts to the players constructs. Build a pathway and they will recognize and follow it.

It even dynamically adapts to changes. Open a door or close a bridge and their approach may change. Even when they destroy some essential blocks by chance that might make a stairway out of a wall they WILL adapt to that new situation.

 

By adding and removing one block (a method) you can have the zombies forever moving down one path or another.  The zombies will never adapt to this infinite loop.  That is just the easiest to understand example I can think of.  The near infinite methods/constructs they build, to troll this simplistic AI behavior is not very interesting to me.   

I repeated what I said about player methods and constructs as I guess you misunderstood something.

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

And in 7D2D you have to craft a Farming Plot and collect the right ingredients. Then you have to remember that your crops must have access to light.

So what?

 

In 7dtd just need light. In valheim flax and barley have to be planted on plains - this mean you have to make another base just for farming both. Then Jotun puffs and magecap  need soil on Mistland. so you need 3 bases for now at least + animals from diffrent biomes. You need them to make better quality food - because better quality food = more Hp and stamina + magic. This mean you don't have only need  plants but meat too - so you have tame animals which is pretty hard, then you have transport them to your base ( hard again). Plus there is fishing - 7dtd?  you can live on everything just because most hp and stamina you take from perks.

 

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

 

It seems to me that you like Valheim better. Great! 

Go play Valheim! But don't try to change 7D2D into Valheim, they're two completely different games with different play styles.

 

I tried Valheim, but I simply get bored after a while because there's so little to do, and so little to interact with compared to 7D2D. Of course, that's just my opinion, but I don't go on the Valheim forums and try to change Valheim into 7D2D, because I know the devs of that game have their own plan about their game and have their own "style" they wish to give to their own game.

 

In Valheim, IMO, they just give you the impression of progress. You always repeat the upgrade cycles over and over, but it's always the same stuff, they just give it a different skin and put a +1 on it. That's an old "trick" that MMOs all around the world have always used to entice people into keep playing. I don't like it.

 

In 7D2D, when you acquire an advantage (a new weapon, a workstation) that advantage is real, and it's meant to stay. When you start making concrete for the first time, it's a pivotal point in base building. You don't have to start over again to get Titanium, or Diamond (lol) to build a stronger base because the monsters have been granted a +1 or +2 in a new Biome.

Little to do in valheim? there is always to do in valheim.  Okay - you defeat first boss - so it's time to get copper and you need tin. You need a lot of wood to smelt them so you need a lot of wood to make coal etc. in this same time make base, tame boar, make carrot farm, beehive, boat because you will need to swim to get more ores etc. and... everything is effective.

 

7dtd? mining became worthless after adding tool parts - in older versions if you focused on mining you could get steel items so fast - so it was effective - now? better just to do quest or clean POI's with markering where are crates and bags then : lucky googles + candy  and you will get faster better quality item that by crafting.

 

In valheim you have to worry  in black forest about shamans and brute if you have bronze eq . So if you get silver eq you can just walking there like in park just do stuff and that's it .

7DTD -  low gamestage forest near trader - normal zombies

7dtd - higher gamestage  near trader - bikers  + screamers xd 

so what is a point to get better EQ if  worlds get better too like in oblivion? In oblivion you have iron armor? bandits have iron armor. You have deadric armor? sup bandits get deadric armor - you had to hit bandit 15 times on begining of the game and after 40 hours of game you have to do this same. At least in oblivion you don't have level up ( you level up during sleep) so you can progress by looking on specifc weapons so you can  reduce number of hit from 15 into 10

 

You saying that is always this same stuff - if you play a little bit - yeah this can looks this same but stuff get crazy - slime have resistans against piercing damage, lox against blunt damage etc. so you have think  what do you want to use later - you made a spear but want to fight with bonemass - you will deal 1/4 of dmg.

Then silver weapons get specific damage - Draugt bow - poison, frostner - cold with slowing down. And then magic showing up crossbow + harpoon which is realy useful.

But you have to safe feathers for better arrows so you mostly fight melee 

 

7dtd after junk guns - you find junk shotgun - ammo is everywhere so you don't have to worry anymore. Another shotgun just faster reloading and 2 bullet and a little bit more dmg but just a little bit then just change magasine and rate of fire. And that's it.

 

So yeah you can make new workstation in 7dtd but faster you will find specific mod or weapon that you will have enough resources. I had this situation always 7dtd

New weapon? 

 

So - usually stats of high quality of lower tier can be higer that low quality of newer weapon. so if you get better quality next tier - older tier stop respawn. 

But this mean more "better" enemy respawn while in valheim change nothing until you get better.

 

I agree that after you make concrete it will be piovital of your base but... because there is nothing better. it's like sayint that you don't better shotgun that auto shotgun while there is no better autoshotgun.

So what left? making more spikes because are the cheapest and trees are inifinte -  mines are expensive. 

electicity traps need  gas for generator - so you need parts, iron and gas for making and repairs but gas  solar pannels can help a little bit so you can save some gas for auger or vehicles and gas in not unlimited = as much gase you use then farer you have to go so this mean you have safe more gas to be able to get more gas.

So i don't say i want 7dtd to became valheim - i show on example what can be done better

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Aldranon said:

 

By adding and removing one block (a method) you can have the zombies forever moving down one path or another.  The zombies will never adapt to this infinite loop.  That is just the easiest to understand example I can think of.  The near infinite methods/constructs they build, to troll this simplistic AI behavior is not very interesting to me.   

I repeated what I said about player methods and constructs as I guess you misunderstood something.

 

What you call simplistic AI behaviour is basically what 99% of all games in history had. Even in science you will find very few expert systems that had the capability to learn. Only when neural networks became really powerful in the last few years learning became common as the basic principle of creating a neural network AI. BUT even the typical neural network AIs only learn at creation time when they go through millions of examples taken from the internet and then are static. They do not learn anymore when they are used.

 

You may have seen game AIs that have a few ways to react to a players strategies, but there is no learning involved, those are almost always lists of actio->reactio and if you can find a loop you can exploit you can outmaneuver those AIs just as well as the AI in 7D2D

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Mumpfy]

weird to be here, anyway... convince the pimps to include some id maps we can rip with the assets and ill get zeds variations in days lol. but the current process is to hand paint the id maps on top of the textures and its painful and takes lots of time, to do it right i mean, not just hue change the current textures randomly.

[Aldranon]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

What you call simplistic AI behaviour is basically what 99% of all games in history had. Even in science you will find very few expert systems that had the capability to learn. Only when neural networks became really powerful in the last few years learning became common as the basic principle of creating a neural network AI. BUT even the typical neural network AIs usually don't learn with each interaction anymore. After they have learned from millions of examples taken from the internet they are fix and do not learn anymore.

 

You may have seen game AIs that have a few ways to react to a players strategies, but there is no learning involved, those are almost always lists of actio->reactio and if you can find a loop you can exploit you can outmaneuver those AIs just as well as the AI in 7D2D

 

 

You're an all or nothing kind of guy it seems, when a simple percental can create many responses to the same event/situation.   Enough that would turn the current mind-numbing and endlessly repetitive reactions into something more interesting plausible. 

 

Adding just one more layer of sub-responses with conditions or from other events and you have an "AI" that bandits could be very interesting and seem realistic enough (depending on programmer imagination of course).