Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[jenniann]

Love the sound of the new crafting changes coming in Alpha21. Can't wait to see more about this. Keep up the awesome work!

[Survager]

@madmole Will players in Alpha 21 get experience points for killing zombies / upgrading blocks / mining / finding items and so on. Or is this part completely gone from the game?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, POCKET951 said:

so what will happen to the skill tree ? how will this new system change skills like physician, advanced engineering and grease monkey?

 

These skills in A20 are almost entirely based on unlocking crafting recipes and crafting 

 

The perks definitely got gutted...haha. They will be rebalancing the bonuses and benefits that perks give but remember that one important aspect of the perks in the new system is that they weight the loot table to what you want to find. So if you don't perk into Grease Monkey, for example, the magazines that give knowledge for vehicle crafting are going to show up randomly. Sure, you can go loot gas stations for a greater chance at finding those but you still won't be able to move up that crafting skill tree except at the whim of unmodified randomness. That could take weeks and weeks of searching and finding all the magazines you don't need.

 

Perking into Grease Monkey is going to pad the probabilities towards successfully finding those magazines you need to learn how to craft vehicles as well as the parts needed for those vehicles.

 

When the change first happened I was a bit frustrated with it because what I could learn to craft was so random and I had zero control over what I could learn to craft. But I was waiting to perk into anything until I knew what I would mostly find. As soon as I learned about the benefits of perking I did that and frustration was replaced by fun as I started finding more of what I wanted and needed. It isn't guaranteed but the probability does go up for spending points in the perks enough that you are finding what you want a lot of the time and making looting rewarding.

 

14 minutes ago, Survager said:

@madmole Will players in Alpha 21 get experience points for killing zombies / upgrading blocks / mining / finding items and so on. Or is this part completely gone from the game?

 

There has been no change to gaining xp through various actions and earning skill points when you level up and spending those skill points on perks. That part of the game is exactly the same. Many  of the perks themselves will obviously be different than what you've known and will need some adjustments.

 

1 hour ago, Survager said:

@madmole 

Did I understand correctly that now in Alpha 21 it will not be possible to find a recipe for a weapon / tool / food / drink in the game? So players will be less likely to say "WOW" as progress will be very smooth?

 

You won't find recipes in books. Instead, you can think of it as finding pieces of recipes in several magazines. This is simply for crafting. You can still find those actual items in loot for a nice WOW moment. Whenever you've read enough of a magazine type to unlock a new recipe or a higher quality tier you feel a WOW moment. It's true that you will never learn how to make a steel club before you learn to make an iron club so if that is the type of WOW moment you mean then, yes, those moments will be gone. You will have to work your way up the skill ladder in order to learn how to craft the highest tech with no way to skip ahead by finding a recipe early.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[beerfly]

Wait, workstationS ? Should we expect something new in there ?

 

Thank you for the reveal of the new system, looks neat and can't wait to try it !

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

So will we still be able to find weapons and other items in loot? Because if not that will be another change that will have to be modded out. 

 

Loot must mean something other than just finding magazines to find parts and further recipes...

[Laz Man]

13 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

So will we still be able to find weapons and other items in loot? Because if not that will be another change that will have to be modded out. 

 

Loot must mean something other than just finding magazines to find parts and further recipes...

 

Madmole:

"There is still a chance to find other stuff, but you won't be level 100 and still using a brown double barrel because of random drops."

[dcsobral]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:55 AM, dcsobral said:

Presumably we are not going back to the good old days of "start by crafting 500 stone axes", but LBD and Crafting send all the wrong vibes to me.

It turns out the new system couldn't be more diametrically opposed to LBD. So I'm happy.

[Survager]

@madmole @Roland

 

New skills will only affect the quality and rank of items, as well as the discovery of new recipes?

Or will these skills also increase the player's ability to use one or another weapon and tool that the player constantly uses?

For example, now in Alpha 20 and down, if I want to use knives and sniper rifles equally effectively, then I have to buy levels of different attributes, but if I don’t like to use pistols and spears, it turns out that I am partially wasting experience points?

 

I hope I was able to explain my thought.

[POCKET951]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

You won't find recipes in books. Instead, you can think of it as finding pieces of recipes in several magazines. This is simply for crafting. You can still find those actual items in loot for a nice WOW moment. Whenever you've read enough of a magazine type to unlock a new recipe or a higher quality tier you feel a WOW moment. It's true that you will never learn how to make a steel club before you learn to make an iron club so if that is the type of WOW moment you mean then, yes, those moments will be gone. You will have to work your way up the skill ladder in order to learn how to craft the highest tech with no way to skip ahead by finding a recipe early.

will recipes for thing's like anvils, bellows and  crucibles still drop or will those all unlock through the crafting skill tree?

are all recipes books  being replaced with training manuals?

 

1 hour ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

So will we still be able to find weapons and other items in loot? Because if not that will be another change that will have to be modded out. 

 

Loot must mean something other than just finding magazines to find parts and further recipes...

I assume we would still be able to find weapons and armor in loot? looting stuff is a big aspect of this game. it would be silly if we only looted crafting skill books

Edited May 19, 2022 by POCKET951 (see edit history)

[FoulFox]

I mean no offense, but there is a reason I gave up on 7 Days.
I don't think I can point out any other game that has been in development for nearly 10 years so that the developers can get away with changing everything we know about the game, damn near every single update.
Not all of us enjoy or appreciate the RPG elements added.
Not all of us want skills rearrange and changed every 5 updates.

I absolutely love this game and have gifted it to nearly 40 people, but I just will not keep relearning @%$#.
And I am not talking about new things. I am not talking about new POIs. I am not talking about new AI mechanics... THOSE ARE AMAZING IMPROVEMENTS!
But as an Artist myself I will give you the single advice that made me confident in my work: At some point while painting for perfection you begin @%$#ing up your own work.
Please stop @%$#ing up your own work?
Every update that changes skills, UI, adds RPG bull@%$#... I invest less and less time playing the game before I get bored and go play a triple A title.
I use to be able to play for days on end... But you continue to jack with player agency instead of working on the things you promised us.

And who the @%$# am I right? What does my unpopular opinion matter? At the end of the day I will go unheard and a game I loved will turn into absolute dog @%$# for me and I will never have the same experience again.

I will never say that I wish I could refund the game.... But if I could rethink gifting it 40 times I damn sure would have a few pizzas that would at least be less cheesy.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

So will we still be able to find weapons and other items in loot? Because if not that will be another change that will have to be modded out. 

 

Loot must mean something other than just finding magazines to find parts and further recipes...

 

Yes, magazines have been added to the loot tables but random items with random stats have not been removed.

 

2 hours ago, Survager said:

@madmole @Roland

 

New skills will only affect the quality and rank of items, as well as the discovery of new recipes?

Or will these skills also increase the player's ability to use one or another weapon and tool that the player constantly uses?

For example, now in Alpha 20 and down, if I want to use knives and sniper rifles equally effectively, then I have to buy levels of different attributes, but if I don’t like to use pistols and spears, it turns out that I am partially wasting experience points?

 

I hope I was able to explain my thought.

 

You learn new recipes as your skill level increases. You also gain the ability to craft already known recipes at a higher quality tier.

 

These new skills grant zero ability or advantage to the use of items. They are simply how we learn to craft things. So, as an example, the farming skill will be how seed crafting is unlocked but that's it. In order to get better yields and other advantages you have to perk into Living off the Land just like before.

 

In Alpha 21 to be able to use knives and sniper rifles equally effectively you will have to buy levels of different attributes exactly the way it is now. In order to be able to craft a sniper rifle and the machete at a high quality level you will need to find and read a lot of the respective magazines that lead to that knowledge.

 

The ability to craft weapons and tools have been separated completely away from the attributes. What you craft has nothing to do with any attribute you might perk into. However, the benefits and advantages for each weapon are exactly as connected to attributes as they have ever been. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 hours ago, POCKET951 said:

will recipes for thing's like anvils, bellows and  crucibles still drop or will those all unlock through the crafting skill tree?

are all recipes books  being replaced with training manuals?

 

All recipes unlock through the crafting skill tree. The Forge Ahead magazine unlocks those as you continue to find more of those magazines. Whole recipes for anything will no longer be a loot drop or a trader item or a quest reward or a perk ability. The only path for gaining any crafting recipe other than what you know at the beginning is by reading magazines.

 

2 hours ago, FoulFox said:

I just will not keep relearning @%$#.

 

This particular change is simple. You don't have to relearn anything. It boils down to: read any magazine you find in loot or get as a quest reward. If you already know the game then you already know what recipes there are to be learned and the game will tell you whenever you unlock a new one or as soon as you can craft a better quality tier. Its all automatic and all you have to do is loot and read. The perks will be somewhat different but there's always time at night to peruse the perks and decide how you want to spend your points. It is a big change but it really carries a very small relearning barrier to it.

 

2 hours ago, FoulFox said:

I will never have the same experience again.

 

You can play most past versions. Alpha 10 was the pinnacle of the game just before RPG elements started getting introduced in Alpha 11. It is classic 7 Days to Die sans RPG elements. PM me if you don't know how to load past versions of the game.

[Blake_]

8 hours ago, madmole said:

We can consider it. Now that it requires great effort to reach the top skill level crafting Q6 doesn't feel so bad.

I'm absolutely in love with the new concept. For me, this game was too arbitrary in which item and weapon perks went where and it bothered me that some builds weighted more than others at a given point because of that.

 

I find Q6 crafting a good thing to implement , like at the very end of a magazine tree, BUT, I think the game would benefit from the legendary effects you talked about a while ago, but only in loot, as I believe the best of the best should still be found by looking around. Any word about those legendary bonuses?

[NukemDed]

it all makes sense to me. if you choose to specialise in a subject in real life, and you go to a bookshelf, you skim over the titles you already know, either searching for something specific or something different. therefore an expert in a field should be able to pick quality titles faster than a noob, except thru dumb luck, and ignore what he already has or knows.

for example, if looking at fishing books, i would ignore 'basic knots for beginners' and go for something like 'fine tuning your depth sounder'.

or in snow dogs case time magazine wouldnt register, but playboy on the other hand...

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Blake_ said:

For me, this game was too arbitrary in which item and weapon perks went where and it bothered me that some builds weighted more than others at a given point because of that.

 

Its only for crafting though. All the bonuses granted by perks like damage increases and chance to dismember and cause bleed etc, are all tied to attributes in exactly the same way they are now. The only uncoupling of weapons and attributes is for crafting.

[Blake_]

Just now, Roland said:

 

Its only for crafting though. All the bonuses granted by perks like damage increases and chance to dismember and cause bleed etc, are all tied to attributes in exactly the same way they are now. The only uncoupling of weapons and attributes is for crafting.

Which was the main problem, really. Having to perk into some attribute because you want better quality wrenches no longer applies, not only that, now there is a possibility of being able to craft ( not only find) a q5 impact driver by yourself, if only through sheer luck.

[EggsAisle]

Hmm. My first impression is that this sounds like the best thought-out crafting system so far. Truthfully, I've never been a huge fan of how 7DTD handled crafting progression- the stone axe factory of LBD was rightfully ditched, but the perk system was clunky and veered wildly between mandatory and useless. This sounds more up my alley.

[Games'n'Grumble]

@madmole @Roland

How does the new crafting system combine with the new armor sets, because there are also many types of them? First, gloves are opened, for example, then a helmet, but the player can craft these elements from any set? Or...?

[Roland]

13 minutes ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

@madmole @Roland

How does the new crafting system combine with the new armor sets, because there are also many types of them? First, gloves are opened, for example, then a helmet, but the player can craft these elements from any set? Or...?

 

First cloth and scrap armor sets are opened at tier one and you work your way through tier 5. Then leather and iron armor sets are opened starting at tier 1 and progressing to tier 5 and then finally military and steel armor sets are opened starting at tier 1 and progressing to tier 5. You won't learn gloves and then helmet and then boots and then chest armor and then leg armor. You will learn the whole set of each version of light and heavy armor at those unlock skill levels.

 

As for the outfit sets discussed in the past there will obviously be adjustments made when those are implemented. As of now they are not. The new system uses the existing armor sets.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[POCKET951]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

 

All recipes unlock through the crafting skill tree. The Forge Ahead magazine unlocks those as you continue to find more of those magazines. Whole recipes for anything will no longer be a loot drop or a trader item or a quest reward or a perk ability. The only path for gaining any crafting recipe other than what you know at the beginning is by reading 

 

I'm really happy about this change because it means I will never have a day 180 world where i still don't have an anvil recipe because I have over 300+ gamestage and the recipe will never drop. It takes away the rng of recipes and adds a deterministic system that you can fully grinsd while still being somewhat random.

Edited May 19, 2022 by POCKET951 (see edit history)

[Games'n'Grumble]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

First cloth and scrap armor sets are opened at tier one and you work your way through tier 5. Then leather and iron armor sets are opened starting at tier 1 and progressing to tier 5 and then finally military and steel armor sets are opened starting at tier 1 and progressing to tier 5. You won't learn gloves and then helmet and then boots and then chest armor and then leg armor. You will learn the whole set of each version of light and heavy armor at those unlock skill levels.

Oh... I thought that in A21 we are waiting for a redesigned armor? I mean the new sets that were mentioned earlier - the set of "nerd", "stalker", "miner" or something like that. In the roadmap A 20, they were moved to A21, so it's interesting how these sets will be combined with the new crafting system. Or are the sets canceled?

 

[POCKET951]

11 minutes ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

Oh... I thought that in A21 we are waiting for a redesigned armor? I mean the new sets that were mentioned earlier - the set of "nerd", "stalker", "miner" or something like that. In the roadmap A 20, they were moved to A21, so it's interesting how these sets will be combined with the new crafting system. Or are the sets canceled?

 

That's an old dev diary and going forward with the A21 dev diary and onwards they will only add things to the list that are confirmed.

 

Maybe they are still working on it but it doesn't seem like it will be ready for A21? I don't work at TFP so don't quote me

[Roland]

The outfit sets are not implemented yet. I don’t think they are canceled. But presently the new crafting system uses the existing armor sets. 

[Kalex]

12 hours ago, madmole said:

Hi all!
We're very busy on Alpha 21 but I thought I would share the new crafting system and looting changes with you.

There are now tons of new skills that govern unlocking and the quality of items in the game.

A few examples of crafting skills are shotguns, pistols, cooking, armorer, medical, etc.

Perks no longer unlock recipes or govern crafting skills. Many perks are being reworked to add value where before the main value was a recipe unlock.

Books no longer unlock recipes. The ones that did unlock items are being reworked to do something else.

 

Crafting skill is improved by finding magazines in the game. Mailboxes, file cabinets, book shelves etc can all contain various magazines that improve your skill.

Perking into shotguns for example, increases the odds of finding shotgun magazines, shotgun parts, and shotguns in loot. This makes early specialization work, and you are no longer at the will of the random numbers to find what you are looking for. There is still a chance to find other stuff, but you won't be level 100 and still using a brown double barrel because of random drops. Everything is weighted that you perk into. Once you find all 100 shotgun magazines, you will stop finding shotgun magazines so stuff that is still valuable to you will be found instead.

 

Skill ranges represent their unlocks. Some skills go to 100, others stop at 50, so they require less magazines read to max out.

All crafting ranges now do not overlap. For example with shotguns, skill 0 to 20 allows you to craft a brown to a blue pipe shotgun. Skill level 21-40 unlocks brown to blue double barrels. Skill level 41-75 unlocks brown to blue pump shotguns. 76-100 unlocks brown to blue auto shotguns. These numbers are just examples, I don't know the actual ranges, but now you don't just craft blue everything.

There is a new skill menu that has a few pages of skills that tracks what skill level you are at and shows what the skill unlocks.

How does it play?
Everyone on the team loves it. The search for technology is fun and you are always finding magazines and unlocking stuff every day. The magazines are useful for a very long time too, where before once you read a single schematic finding another was a disappointment. Now you always find useful magazines.

I found myself crafting nearly every range of pipe shotgun, stone axes etc. Even iron I would craft through most of the range. I would find some stuff and skip crafting for a bit, then when my skill superseded my item,  I'd be crafting again. I've never crafted so much stuff in years and it felt really great. You can no longer just sit around in your cave mining and level up and be crafting the best mining tools. You'll need to get out of the cave and search. However teams can still cooperate and share magazines with a dedicated crafter.

Traders sell magazines and offer magazines as rewards. I find myself taking those rewards quite often because it feels very rewarding to unlock things and level up your crafting skills.

Personally I love the new system. I've never seen a crafting system quite like this before, nor an intelligent loot system with deterministic random. It is playing very nice, and I'm really enjoying a long game. I like it because it feels realistic to read something and learn from it and the player can move through all the ranges of crafting and be making that choice... should I use my parts and craft a new gun, or wait another level? Personally I've always had enough parts to craft what I want because I find the parts for what I'm looking for instead of spear parts or whatever. So the new system weights the loot to what the player needs and it feels very rewarding and enjoyable to me and the testers.





 

 

 

I didn't see stun baton listed there. Does it fall under some other category now?

[POCKET951]

6 minutes ago, Kalex said:

 

 

I didn't see stun baton listed there. Does it fall under some other category now?

It's in robotics. It's just greyed out.