Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?

[Paiper Zombee]

Man. Step away for a moment and the topic suddenly turned to talk about….planks? lol

 

Anyway thanks all for sharing in this topic. I can understand why some never want the option for digging to become a player controlled option and that it should be something all zombies normally do. But I still stand by my opinion that it should be a player option, just like feral sense was made an option the player can turn off and on. Imagine if feral sense became the new unchangeable way that zombies behaved. Any new player, and even some veteran players would have to rock Romero esque settings (i.e. every zombie walks no matter what situation) just to be able to deal.

 

We’ve focused only on being underground in the base during a Blood Moon when it comes to digging, but the situation goes beyond that. If one is above ground, since Zombies have the acute (and unnecessary) ability to know exactly where the weakest point in the base is, watch as a group suddenly decides that they want bypass the wide open pathways into the base and dig underneath it so that they can reach the one cobblestone block that was overlooked during the upgrading process and break through it.

 

Also zombies can, will, and do dig outside of a Blood Moon. In both scenarios Zombies will dig their way around and under obstacles, such as spikes, fences, or game built barbed wiring. Remember how one used to be able to go all the way down to bedrock level and build an area for all of the heat using items to avoid unnecessary visits from the Screamer? She can now somehow STILL sense heat coming from that far down in the earth and will happily dig her way down to the source.

 

Please Fun Pimps can we get the option to turn digging off and on like all the other zombie related stuff? One of the many things I like about this

game is the ability to create my own experience, from a Romero-esque one (i.e. everything walks no matter what) up to a full throttle World War Z experience (i.e. feral sense is on and everything moves at max speed). Feral sense wasn’t forced onto the players and digging shouldn’t be forced either. Those who want it on will keep it on and those who want it off (like me) can turn it off. Who is it hurting to make this happen? Everyone wins.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Paiper Zombee
Message forgot how to paragraph (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Paiper Zombee said:

...Imagine if feral sense became the new unchangeable way that zombies behaved....

 

I have a better example: Imagine there was a bug in A25 that zombies could turn only right, not left. And after TFP fixed the bug for A26 with lots and lots of AI changes some players complained that the game was so much better for them when zombies only turned right.

 

I somehow doubt that TFP would expend development effort and option settings for this even if there were some players asking for it. Game developers don't like too many options because they have to support and test for all combinations of option settings. They tend to be very selective about them.

 

[RipClaw]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Game developers don't like too many options because they have to support and test for all combinations of option settings. They tend to be very selective about them.

Have you ever played Ark ? 😁

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Have you ever played Ark ? 😁

 

 

No, but Factorio 😉. There are exceptions

[Paiper Zombee]

21 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I have a better example: Imagine there was a bug in A25 that zombies could turn only right, not left. And after TFP fixed the bug for A26 with lots and lots of AI changes some players complained that the game was so much better for them when zombies only turned right.

 

I somehow doubt that TFP would expend development effort and option settings for this even if there were some players asking for it. Game developers don't like too many options because they have to support and test for all combinations of option settings. They tend to be very selective about them.

 

I'd have to argue that a bug is a much different animal than something that was actually coded into the game to be an actual behavior.

 

And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.

 

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.

 

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game. That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced, how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced, and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 

 

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior? Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

I'd have to argue that a bug is a much different animal than something that was actually coded into the game to be an actual behavior.

 

As far as I have heard the story of digging zombies it went this way: 7days originally already had zombies that could dig and they turned it off for some alphas because it didn't work like they wanted. That is why I think this case has more similarity to a bug than to a new play modus that was added to make the world look more alive.

 

7 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.

 

Well, actually a lot of people complained about the world feeling empty and the devs made clear that they didn't like that situation either but were constrained by performance. Feral option was one way to combat that. So actually feral sense was something the developers wanted and a lot of players wanted.

 

7 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

 

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.

 

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game. That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced, how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced, and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 

 

This is called balancing and is done while developing any game. A game works well and is well balanced if the more effort the player invests the more he gets out. "Features" that give the player safety without effort are not a good balance in a game where survival is a goal.

 

A game needs this balance to have a long "life". Why do you think Blizzard took so many pains to balance their games so painstackingly? Why do you think those games were so popular and stayed relevant for so long?

 

7 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

 

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior? Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.

 

If I remember correctly, Faatal (who remade the AI for A17) said the no-digging feature would have to be developed anew. I assume this means that he changed the way the AI worked from ground up and that the old code you assume still existing is gone (Maybe he even said this himself, don't know)

 

To me it doesn't really matter. The no-dig option is for me what the feral-sense option is for you. No-digging is something for a mod in my opinion.

The question "there is this option, why not that option?" could be asked for hundreds of features that were once in the game. Almost all changes TFP has ever done to the game in its long years of open development have at least one fan saying "But I liked that the other way, please give it back, just as an option".

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

On 2/9/2022 at 12:00 PM, JCrook1028 said:

Zombies dig because the Devs want them to. Zombies don't dodge.

Are we playing the same game?  Not a night goes by when the zombies don't do that stupid duck when I'm trying to hit them midcenter to head.

[JCrook1028]

13 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Are we playing the same game?  Not a night goes by when the zombies don't do that stupid duck when I'm trying to hit them midcenter to head.

Then look to what is causing it. Either something above or below them. They only do it to fit thru small spaces. they DO NOT do it to avoid your attack. It is simply NOT in their coding, at all. Period. End of Story. Full Stop.

[Morloc]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:09 PM, Roland said:

Maybe TFP is disappointed in George Romero. How about that?

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

[Paiper Zombee]

15 hours ago, meganoth said:

As far as I have heard the story of digging zombies it went this way: 7days originally already had zombies that could dig and they turned it off for some alphas because it didn't work like they wanted. That is why I think this case has more similarity to a bug than to a new play modus that was added to make the world look more alive.

I see. Now I understand the bug analogy. I had no idea digging was something TFP had been working on previously and were just trying to get it right. Thanks for letting me know this.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

Well, actually a lot of people complained about the world feeling empty and the devs made clear that they didn't like that situation either but were constrained by performance. Feral option was one way to combat that. So actually feral sense was something the developers wanted and a lot of players wanted.

This I remember, and yes the biomes (sans the Wastelands at night) did used to feel like they were empty at times. I've noticed that has changed since A20 and that's a good thing. Still not turning on feral sense though....lol.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

This is called balancing and is done while developing any game. A game works well and is well balanced if the more effort the player invests the more he gets out. "Features" that give the player safety without effort are not a good balance in a game where survival is a goal.

 

A game needs this balance to have a long "life". Why do you think Blizzard took so many pains to balance their games so painstackingly? Why do you think those games were so popular and stayed relevant for so long?

 

I agree with this, and the only light counter I have to it is that 7D2D is a type of game where the player can create their own "balance" so to speak to a certain extent. I like that ability and level of control. But balance for the sake of...well, let's just put it this way. Never put Blizzard and "balance" in the same sentence together. They did good jobs with that on everything except World of Warcraft. I played a Warlock in that game from the beginning until about two expansions ago when I finally retired from the game. And if you know anything about Warlocks and their balance history, then you'll know what road I don't want to see TFP go down and claim balance as the cause.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

If I remember correctly, Faatal (who remade the AI for A17) said the no-digging feature would have to be developed anew. I assume this means that he changed the way the AI worked from ground up and that the old code you assume still existing is gone (Maybe he even said this himself, don't know)

 

To me it doesn't really matter. The no-dig option is for me what the feral-sense option is for you. No-digging is something for a mod in my opinion.

The question "there is this option, why not that option?" could be asked for hundreds of features that were once in the game. Almost all changes TFP has ever done to the game in its long years of open development have at least one fan saying "But I liked that the other way, please give it back, just as an option".

 

Ah. I did not know the AI had been re-worked from top to bottom, and now it makes sense why nobody has been able to create a mod that removes digging. It's hardwired in to the new code.

 

Though I would still like to see an option for no digging, I now better understand why it's not there and may never be available. And I can deal with that. In all seriousness, thank you for your responses. Who said there were no more civilized message boards for games around anymore!

 

On 2/10/2022 at 1:09 PM, Roland said:

 

Maybe TFP is disappointed in George Romero. How about that?

56 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 

/agree. lol

[Roland]

23 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that feral sense was added as an option in the first place. It was not added first as a standard feature of the game and then provided an on/off switch later. Digging was added as part of the pathing code. A better example in your favor would be the Blood Moon horde. That was added as a standard feature of the game and then later on an option was added to turn off blood moon hordes. The difference between blood moon horde on/off and digging on/off is the amount of work necessary to make it happen. For blood moon it was a very simple job. Since digging is integrated completely in the pathing coding it is going to be a lot trickier.

 

23 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.

 

These developers are not averse to lots of options. There are two things going on here. FIrst, the game is in active development and the developers want features to be played with and tested. They aren't keen on adding something new just to have everyone turn it off without even giving it a try. Certainly, things often get modded out immediately by those who have that skill (and that does irritate the developers btw) but it is really a small subset of the whole base who do that. Most players will have to play with the new feature the devs want playtested since there is no option to turn it off.

Second, the developers come from a modding background and so from their perspective they have given us the ultimate options menu by exposing the xml files and allowing us to edit them. Set the amount of options available through xml editing next to the options of any game's options screen and you won't think that TFP hates too many options.

 

There is a time and season to everything and I am certain 7 Days to Die will eventually have an option menu that will rival any game out there once development is finished. Once workshop integration is complete and modlets can be selected like options right from the steam menu, the list of options available for the game that the non-mod-savvy person could choose will be beyond countable.

 

23 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game.

 

No. Conspiracy theories all. Circumstantial evidence does not reveal some causal relationship that some people in the community invent in their minds. There is no TFP campaign to stop players from using their strategies. There is a desire to fix bugs and improve pathing and if those fixes and pathing improvements cause a particular strategy to become obsolete then it was simply collateral damage and not the intent or the goal of the developers. Also, the lion share of the effort in doing those fixes was performed by the player base in discovery. The amount of time needed to discover undesirable exploits would be obscene and TFP largely refrains from doing any of that. The effort to fix most of the bugs that some were using as the basis for their "strategies" really has been minimal. The most recent bug with the arrow slits was fixed in a matter of hours if not minutes.

 

23 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced

 

Absolutely not. That change was purely for improving their pathing through POI's -- in particular attic spaces as well as some of the irregular holes in walls. You can take me as an official source on that rather than gulping in the speculations of certain internet personalities looking for likes and subscribes...

 

23 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced

 

Partially true. It is true that TFP wanted to eliminate the surface of deep lakes and rivers as a 100% safe zone as part of their philosophy that nowhere in the game should be 100% safe. I don't think they have completely achieved that goal but swimming zombies was definitely part of it. But it was also part of the general pathing overhaul to help them traverse the terrain better and not get stuck. As far as being able to swim better than us, it is simply because the development of player interaction with water hasn't happened yet. Should be happening soon-- either this upcoming alpha or the next. Then we can better judge player vs zombie swimming abilities. For now it is WIP.

 

23 hours ago, Paiper Zombee said:

and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 

 

Had nothing to do with base defense strategies even though it was discovered by players doing base defense strategies. It is all about zombie pathing and making sure they are able to move about the world as intended. The arrow slit blocks were never intended to be impassable. There is nothing about them that appears to be something zombies couldn't walk over. As I already mentioned, most of the work on this fix was done by the community in discovering it. Actually fixing it was a snap. No cool future potential feature was displaced by a programmer spending a portion of his morning fixing that bug. 

 

And finally...who is complaining that zombies are pathing over previously troublesome terrain without issue now? Sounds to me like TFP is doing its job since zombies that get stuck in terrain and never get to you make for boring gameplay. Most of the chatter I read is a desire for more zombies in the world but I suppose there may be some out there wishing that more zombies would get stuck in the world terrain more often so that the overall impression would be even

fewer zombies. There really can't be very many of those voices but yours is definitely one of them I guess...

 

On 2/21/2022 at 10:34 AM, Paiper Zombee said:

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior?

 

They are aware since they had digging zombies first and then they removed it and then they returned it. Seems like they intentionally chose the state they wanted the game to have after fully exploring both states. It wouldn't hurt anyone to put an option in but it would be a lengthy and involved process since it would also involve redoing the pathing. Perhaps it would have been better if they had made "digging" be a simple AI zombie task separate from the pathing but they did not. It is part of the pathing and it will take a lot of work for them to separate it out and create an on/off switch for it. So it goes to whether they want to put that much effort into it. Maybe they will <shrug>

 

On 2/21/2022 at 10:34 AM, Paiper Zombee said:

Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.

 

Except you don't have to toggle that option off. It is already off by default. You would have to toggle it on and then toggle it off to make your point which I suppose you could do with a shouted "Take that!" at the same time.

[Boidster]

TFP Weekly Sprint

1. Optimize dynamic mesh for roadways and dirt paths

2. Improve lighting in store_oldwest_02 and house_modern_06

3. Completely &@^! up that one YouTuber's base strategy

[Ramethzer0]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:35 AM, JCrook1028 said:

Then look to what is causing it. Either something above or below them. They only do it to fit thru small spaces. they DO NOT do it to avoid your attack. It is simply NOT in their coding, at all. Period. End of Story. Full Stop.

 

I'll need some sort of proof other than because you say so, because it happens way to often to be explained away so simply.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

I'll need some sort of proof other than because you say so, because it happens way to often to be explained away so simply.

 

Only the zombies infected by Agent Smith do it. We are trying to stay ahead of the infection rate but it feels like a losing battle...

[Callum123456789]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Only the zombies infected by Agent Smith do it. We are trying to stay ahead of the infection rate but it feels like a losing battle...

That reminds me i have a question I don't know about you but am I crazy or does cop and mutated zombie vomit have a higher chance of infection than other damage types of of course not including dogs because I usually get infected Earlish game the 2nd or 3rd time my guy takes vomit damage or dog bit damage.

[theFlu]

10 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I'll need some sort of proof other than because you say so, because it happens way to often to be explained away so simply.

You're asking people to prove a negative; which is pretty difficult, could be called impossible for the general case. On the other hand, you can prove your side of it by getting a zombie to dodge you on a flat, obstacle-free area. You know, a single clip from a youtuber would basically suffice.

 

While I'm not able to provide you with proof of the opposite; I'll add my voice to the other side. I haven't seen a zed dodge a swing intentionally, just by happenstance timing with their weird WIP animations.

[Vaeliorin]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:44 PM, Roland said:

The most recent bug with the arrow slits was fixed in a matter of hours if not minutes.

Given that it's been a thing since at least A17, I find referring to it as "the most recent bug" kind of disingenuous.  And the idea that fixing it was a matter of hours makes it seem kind of strange that it wasn't fixed ages ago.

 

Anyway, my only real gripes with the zombie ducking thing is that cops seems to be able to stand up and vomit, clipping through blocks, while crawling and that it's not a smooth transition from standing to crawling.  It's super annoying when a zombie instantly transitions from standing to crawling mid-swing and you miss because of their super speed.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Anyway, my only real gripes with the zombie ducking thing is that cops seems to be able to stand up and vomit, clipping through blocks, while crawling and that it's not a smooth transition from standing to crawling.  It's super annoying when a zombie instantly transitions from standing to crawling mid-swing and you miss because of their super speed.

 

That's because they haven't gotten the proper animations for it yet.  Faatal mentioned that he has to use what they have at the time for this feature.  Proper animations are being worked on. 

[Vaeliorin]

18 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

That's because they haven't gotten the proper animations for it yet.  Faatal mentioned that he has to use what they have at the time for this feature.  Proper animations are being worked on. 

Seems like they should have finished the animations before putting it in the game, then.  It's not a huge deal, admittedly, just super annoying when I get hit because they ducked mid swing and hit me before I can swing again.

[BFT2020]

8 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

Seems like they should have finished the animations before putting it in the game, then.  It's not a huge deal, admittedly, just super annoying when I get hit because they ducked mid swing and hit me before I can swing again.

It's part of being in development.  Sometimes you have all the gears ready and sometimes you don't.  In this case, putting it in prior to having the animations finished allowed them to evaluate the AI changes that faatal has been working on.  With it being live, faatal can get feedback on what works and what doesn't, and continue improving the system while the other parts of the changes (i.e. animations) are still being worked on.

 

This is actually a fairly common practice when developing new things.

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Given that it's been a thing since at least A17, I find referring to it as "the most recent bug" kind of disingenuous.  And the idea that fixing it was a matter of hours makes it seem kind of strange that it wasn't fixed ages ago.

 

Sorry. In my head I meant the most recently fixed bug involving blocks and zombie pathing. I wasn't trying to con people into thinking that the arrow slits problem was just a recent development. It has been around for awhile somewhere in the list of priorities to fix and very recently it was fixed and it didn't take long to do it. 

 

The devs have a whole smorgasbord of bugs and optimizations and changes they are working on and they choose what order they pull from the list whether or not that order makes sense to you or me. It actually shows that since the blocks have been exploited since A17 as you say, the devs obviously aren't foaming at the mouth to stop players from doing their strategies as some around here speculate. They knew about the blocks and put a pin in it for when they eventually were ready to fix it and they didn't care that players worked the bug into their horde night strategies.

 

Actually, I wonder if they broke again somehow because I seem to remember them fixing the arrow slit blocks at the same time they fixed the steep slope bug. I could be remembering wrong though.

 

4 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Seems like they should have finished the animations before putting it in the game, then.  It's not a huge deal, admittedly, just super annoying when I get hit because they ducked mid swing and hit me before I can swing again.

 

You may be standing too close to them for melee. I see people all the time standing way closer to zombies than they need to when doing melee combat.  You can really notice the distance at which you can stand by placing a block in a doorway to keep the zombies at a distance and then hitting them from afar. This was the same problem years back when people died while chopping trees back when a falling tree could kill you. They all stood super close to the trees while chopping.

 

Hope that doesn't come across as condescending-- just something that occurred to me. If you are already aware of the outer limits of melee combat range, forgive me, and maybe this will help someone else reading who needed the tip.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

 help someone else reading who needed the tip.

Hey Rolman, how about you give me just the tip?

[Adam the Waster]

On 2/9/2022 at 1:00 PM, JCrook1028 said:

Zombies dig because the Devs want them to. Zombies don't dodge.

plus its more fun

Next we need zombies that fly.... oh wait

[Roland]

57 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Hey Rolman, how about you give me just the tip?

 

It's always the shaft for you.

[Vaeliorin]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

You may be standing too close to them for melee. I see people all the time standing way closer to zombies than they need to when doing melee combat.  You can really notice the distance at which you can stand by placing a block in a doorway to keep the zombies at a distance and then hitting them from afar. This was the same problem years back when people died while chopping trees back when a falling tree could kill you. They all stood super close to the trees while chopping.

 

Hope that doesn't come across as condescending-- just something that occurred to me. If you are already aware of the outer limits of melee combat range, forgive me, and maybe this will help someone else reading who needed the tip.

I mostly encounter it in POIs, not while outside, so it's not necessarily my choice that I'm standing so close to the zombies. 

 

Honestly, it mostly bothers me when they do it when there's not really anything nearby that makes it seem like they'd need to...it is almost like they're dodging (though I realize they're not.)