Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?

[Ramethzer0]

15 hours ago, theFlu said:

You're asking people to prove a negative; which is pretty difficult, could be called impossible for the general case. On the other hand, you can prove your side of it by getting a zombie to dodge you on a flat, obstacle-free area. You know, a single clip from a youtuber would basically suffice.

 

While I'm not able to provide you with proof of the opposite; I'll add my voice to the other side. I haven't seen a zed dodge a swing intentionally, just by happenstance timing with their weird WIP animations.

Playing with my MP today.  Zombie fell out of a roof tile and landed right in front of me, and dodged my shotgun right away.  Is this what you mean with the animations?

[theFlu]

7 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Zombie fell out of a roof tile and landed right in front of me, and dodged my shotgun right away.  Is this what you mean with the animations?

Probably; sometimes when they get up after a fall they get confused on tables and such, causing them to crawl for a bit. I wasn't there thou, hard to say for sure..

[Boidster]

10 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Playing with my MP today.  Zombie fell out of a roof tile and landed right in front of me, and dodged my shotgun right away.  Is this what you mean with the animations?

 

They have a variety of "landing" animations which are chosen at random. Sometimes they can land standing up, sometimes they stumble for a couple of steps, sometimes they fall flat on their butts. That random behavior was added in A19. But they don't "dodge" in the way you suggest. That is, the game doesn't start an animation on them at the moment you attack for the purpose of dodging damage.

 

Here is, I think, the relevant code for a melee swing. There is nothing in here which calls the zombie entity controller or animator. It just calculates the swing arc and applies damage if there is a hit. The AI/animator is doing its thing in the meantime, and a random animation might mess up your hit, for sure.

 

Quote

Physics.SphereCast(new Ray(new Vector3(this.m_Controller.Transform.position.x, this.m_Camera.Transform.position.y, this.m_Controller.Transform.position.z),

this.m_Camera.Transform.forward), this.DamageRadius, out hitInfo, this.DamageRange, -538750981);
        if ((Object) hitInfo.collider != (Object) null)
        {
          this.SpawnImpactFX(hitInfo);
          this.ApplyDamage(hitInfo);
          this.ApplyRecoil();
        }

 

[Tohskrad]

I definitely agree that the movements tend to be pretty janky and inconsistent at times, definitely far from realistic.  I've had zombies get knocked down, hit once while down and instantly be back on their feet hitting you after contact.   Other times they "incorrectly" think they need to crouch and go on all 4s instantly like they're playing football... then instantly (<1 sec) be back on their feet running.  (Which I'll admit is pretty terrifying when you see it, disregarding how fast they are on all 4s vs. on foot.)

 

I kind of wish there was a more consistent transition time between laying/standing/sitting/crouching across all animations.  It's definitely frustrating since it usually just results in you taking more damage or wasting stamina.

 

And that doesn't even cover how bouncy they are when attacking walls.  Bears move like they're in a strobe light and having seizures, which is frustrating since they're spinning/moving so fast despite their size and running/attacking into walls.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Tohskrad (see edit history)

[Survior]

IMHO, Good game dev. philosophy  gives players options and not limitations on how a player can play in the sandbox.

 

 

[ChickenWings]

I remember back in the day the zombies were so predictable you could use a bow with stone arrows, and headshot everything on every shot.  It was pretty boring and frankly with the bow and arrow you were more lethal with than a lot of other weapons.  So they got jiggly lol and now they seem to dodge right when I shoot lol but I know it's just bad timing.

[Ramethzer0]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:29 AM, theFlu said:

You're asking people to prove a negative; which is pretty difficult, could be called impossible for the general case. On the other hand, you can prove your side of it by getting a zombie to dodge you on a flat, obstacle-free area. You know, a single clip from a youtuber would basically suffice.

 

While I'm not able to provide you with proof of the opposite; I'll add my voice to the other side. I haven't seen a zed dodge a swing intentionally, just by happenstance timing with their weird WIP animations.

I'm watching this very closely now.  So far, they do in fact dodge me still - but there's always something like an obstacle involved, and those obstacles don't always do anything to really impact the combat.   But I can say I've seen first hand that its not always about squeezing through tight spaces.

[theFlu]

8 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I'm watching this very closely now.  So far, they do in fact dodge me still - but there's always something like an obstacle involved, and those obstacles don't always do anything to really impact the combat.   But I can say I've seen first hand that its not always about squeezing through tight spaces.

Excellent, embrace the dark side. Our perception colors our reality, once you get cynical enough, you'll see they're not dodging, just buggy AF... we do have cookies, but they're also just deadly, sugar and such ..

[JCrook1028]

15 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I'm watching this very closely now.  So far, they do in fact dodge me still - but there's always something like an obstacle involved, and those obstacles don't always do anything to really impact the combat.   But I can say I've seen first hand that its not always about squeezing through tight spaces.

Avoiding an obstacle IS avoiding a tight space and no, they are not dodging you. They are dodging blocks, be it building blocks or trash.

[Ramethzer0]

On 3/2/2022 at 12:46 PM, JCrook1028 said:

Avoiding an obstacle IS avoiding a tight space and no, they are not dodging you. They are dodging blocks, be it building blocks or trash.

 

Fast Forward to 10:50 and watch this fight closely.  It is a tight space, but I am still not entirely convinced yet.

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

They did NOT "duck and crawl" there. They FELL from the ceiling and stumbled. Got another example for me to show you wrong with?

[theFlu]

27 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Fast Forward to 10:50 and watch this fight closely.  It is a tight space, but I am still not entirely convinced yet.

That doorway-part; Arlene got stunned, fell on her back, her stunned body making the doorway into 1.5 block high space. Because of that, Edgar figured he'd have to crawl after the stun animation clears and so he did. Arlene was already dead by that time, but the animation sequence didn't update for it.

[Ramethzer0]

11 minutes ago, theFlu said:

That doorway-part; Arlene got stunned, fell on her back, her stunned body making the doorway into 1.5 block high space. Because of that, Edgar figured he'd have to crawl after the stun animation clears and so he did. Arlene was already dead by that time, but the animation sequence didn't update for it.

 

31 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

They did NOT "duck and crawl" there. They FELL from the ceiling and stumbled. Got another example for me to show you wrong with?

Why do folks go for the complicated answers when simpler ones are much more in line with reality?

 

They already compensated for that initial fall.  They only had to move down one block (which doesn't stumble them) to get to the door because they landed on what looked like a desk which was behind the wall when he peeked in finally.

 

I said I could get behind the idea that the animations (and in your example, the timing of them) but I have experienced it on open ground.  I don't tape my sessions, so I can't prove it.   But hey.. I mean if you're into this to prove people wrong on the internet with just as much lack of actual proof, you can go find another chew toy, friendo.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Boidster]

5 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Why do folks go for the complicated answers when simpler ones are much more in line with reality?

 

What am I supposed to do with these 10,000 spoons, when all I need is a knife?

 

Rameth. Buddy. You have made a claim about how the zombies behave. We all have provided evidence that that claim doesn't seem to be correct, including looks into the actual code. You provided 3rd-party video evidence, and people explained how the behaviors shown exactly match known, expected zombie behavior. At this point there is zero convincing evidence from you. You have a claim, and strong feelings about it. That's cool and we can't prove a negative so hey maybe you've discovered something new (and not visible in the code somehow).

 

But ya gotta provide evidence that can't be explained by known existing zombie behaviors. There are dozens of hours of video of people fighting hordes out in the open. If zombies are pro-actively dodging attacks, it should be fairly easy to find other people experiencing it. Frankly, it ought to be easy to find many people complaining about too-smart zombies which anticipate attacks. But for now there's only you. It would be pretty neat to be the one who discovers a new zombie behavior that nobody else noticed.

[Ramethzer0]

19 minutes ago, Boidster said:

We all have provided evidence that that claim doesn't seem to be correct, including looks into the actual code. You provided 3rd-party video evidence, and people explained how the behaviors shown exactly match known, expected zombie behavior. At this point there is zero convincing evidence from you. You have a claim, and strong feelings about it. That's cool and we can't prove a negative so hey maybe you've discovered something new (and not visible in the code somehow).

 

But ya gotta provide evidence that can't be explained by known existing zombie behaviors. There are dozens of hours of video of people fighting hordes out in the open. If zombies are pro-actively dodging attacks, it should be fairly easy to find other people experiencing it. Frankly, it ought to be easy to find many people complaining about too-smart zombies which anticipate attacks. But for now there's only you. It would be pretty neat to be the one who discovers a new zombie behavior that nobody else noticed.

See, this is an assumption.   I never once said that my claim was 100% positive.  I'm trying to have a discussion about it, but there are people that take discussions as challenges and not as two adults trying to get to the bottom of a situation.   The only thing I've said is that I'm skeptical.   When you posted about the code, this doesn't really do much to tell me anything, because I don't know what any of that means, and as I've said previously - I have a difficult time just taking people's word for it.  Roland seemed to make a joke, which tells me he might just wanna torture me with the unknowns (which, btw.. jerkface :P ) or maybe there really isn't a straightforward answer to it.

 

I'm pointing out literally, that I just need more proof for me to understand.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Until I get more reliable evidence that I understand, I don't see a reason to change my stance on the matter.  There is nothing about having that process that is unreasonable.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[theFlu]

10 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I'm trying to have a discussion about it, but there are people that take discussions as challenges and not as two adults trying to get to the bottom of a situation.

I don't know if you're referring to me as an adolescent - and I don't mind if you are - but I did post my interpretation in exactly the spirit you're looking for; trying to describe the event as I see it unfold, so you can go and compare if I might be correct. I sometimes tend to be short in my replies, which may feel hostile, but I'm describing reality the best I can. "As I see it", of course.

 

That also applies to "why the complex route"; if the reality is complex, I'll rather deal with the complexity when I can, than try to come up with inaccurate shorthands.

Edited March 4, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Roland seemed to make a joke, which tells me he might just wanna torture me with the unknowns (which, btw.. jerkface 😛 ) or maybe there really isn't a straightforward answer to it.

 

It was Matrix reference humor. That's all. 

 

Zombies don't dodge player attacks. Deer don't move at the last moment knowing exactly when you are going to pull the trigger to make you miss. I believe there is still some work to be done with transitional animations to make the move from standing to crouching and back again less instantaneous. 

 

[Minkles]

I stopped playing after alpha 16 as I liked my hidey hole…. I’ve only recently come back n giving it another go as I had 800 hours in this game until that point.

 

I’ve rolled back to alpha 19 as I like farming and I’m on Pregen01. I’ve set myself up in the red fire station across from the trader and I’m having a blast haha. 

[Laz Man]

That video is a good example, at a quick glance it looks like an animation of some type was missing.

 

Like moe went into fall down animation after getting hit and instead of him going into a standing up animation, it jumped immediately into a crouched swing animation.

 

I vaguely recall faatal mentioning he used existing animations for the new crawling one so perhaps the problem lies somewhere in that area.

 

Will check with him and see if a bug report would be good for this or if its already in the pipe line.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

I vaguely recall faatal mentioning he used existing animations for the new crawling one so perhaps the problem lies somewhere in that area.

 

No need to worry about your memory, he discussed exactly that.  Got the AI done, but the animations were still not ready; used what was already there in order to start testing the new AI

[JCrook1028]

21 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

See, this is an assumption. 

Actually no. You're the one making assumptions. Reading you the code is sharing a fact, not an assumption.

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:52 AM, meganoth said:

But any player can mod the game, turn off zombies any time and turn them on again, turn on god mode, fly 100m above ground, turn down block damage or simply build a steel block 100x100x10m and be completely safe. Lots of ways to be safe and those and many more are enough choices in a horror game where it shouldn't really be possible, if you ask me.

This is a really poor argument. The game is perfectly fine as is because you can cheat to get what you want. How is that a good thing? A horde night where you can just tool around in your base or AFK should be a reward for coming up with a good enough base to be able to do that at all. You're just taking Kage848's perspective and pulling a 180 from the direction he takes. If you can do all those things to not deal with the blood moon, why is it so necessary that TFP go out of their way to force you to deal with it? The whole thing is just illogical and robs the player of agency. 

[Jinx_DG]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:18 PM, Roland said:

Deer don't move at the last moment knowing exactly when you are going to pull the trigger to make you miss.

Maybe not.... BUT the Ninja Rabbits are Real. One minute you're chasing them through the grass... hard left then a hard right then a fake 180 which is really a 360 then POOF... Gone. As you sit there staring at the monitor trying to subdue the motion queazies you're left asking.... Where TF did it go??? Ninja Rabbits. 

[meganoth]

On 4/15/2022 at 6:53 AM, Stranded_Napkin said:

This is a really poor argument. The game is perfectly fine as is because you can cheat to get what you want. How is that a good thing? A horde night where you can just tool around in your base or AFK should be a reward for coming up with a good enough base to be able to do that at all. You're just taking Kage848's perspective and pulling a 180 from the direction he takes. If you can do all those things to not deal with the blood moon, why is it so necessary that TFP go out of their way to force you to deal with it? The whole thing is just illogical and robs the player of agency. 

 

You are bringing new arguments to a month old thread. I don't have the time to reread the whole thread to know exactly what the argument was all about and I don't know what Kage has to do with it as there doesn't seem to be a post by him in this thread, he isn't even mentioned at all.

So I have to ignore part of your argument and can only answer generally:

 

I probably did not say the game is fine BECAUSE you can cheat to get what you want. I probably said the game is fine EVEN THOUGH you can cheat to get what you want.  Because when a player uses a cheat he also knows he is outside the vanilla game, he knows that he cheats. It is a psychologically hurdle and that is all that TFP can achieve really.

 

Because this game is moddable and its protection against patching is completely optional there is no way TFP can prevent cheats in the general sense. Save-scumming and patching and modding the game are ways to remove danger from the game that TFP can't and in the case of modding does not want to remove. So the only option left is the pschological barrier. I.e. saying that vanilla IS the horror adventure crafting ... game, playing anything else is possible but there is no guarantee at all what game that might result in. Is there still horror and danger, accomplishments, narrow escapes from death? No idea.

 

"You don't want horror, don't like spider zombies, you want a horde night that consists only of distant zombie sounds in your headphones or no horde night at all? Go ahead, we want you to be happy. But we still want to show other people our vision of the horror adventure crafting ... game how we envisioned it. Play vanilla and you will not be able to simply avoid horde night, you will have to work for your safety". (Note I can't speak for TFP, I just guess this is something they might say about their game).

And this is the minimum the game should try to achieve (unless all it wants to be is a pure sandbox game) and also the maximum it can inside the parameters of a freely moddable game.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

On 4/15/2022 at 7:53 AM, Stranded_Napkin said:

The whole thing is just illogical and robs the player of agency.

"Agency"; yup. Because having agency must mean you're never in any threat at all. Also, it's a game; 99.99% of your choices are already pre-emptively removed. You can't grapple. You can't kick. You can't shoot from the safety of your 4x4. You can't fall off your vehicle upon impact. You can't lock a door you just got the key to. You can't turn off a quest generator. You can't ... a whole lot.

 

You can't hide under a layer of dirt and be safe from a horde? Who told you these things were Predator?