Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 4/17/2022 at 7:55 AM, theFlu said:

"Agency"; yup. Because having agency must mean you're never in any threat at all. Also, it's a game; 99.99% of your choices are already pre-emptively removed. You can't grapple. You can't kick. You can't shoot from the safety of your 4x4. You can't fall off your vehicle upon impact. You can't lock a door you just got the key to. You can't turn off a quest generator. You can't ... a whole lot.

 

You can't hide under a layer of dirt and be safe from a horde? Who told you these things were Predator?

Dude, when you already have limited agency, losing more is unacceptable. Talk about weak arguments.

On 4/17/2022 at 7:24 AM, meganoth said:

 

You are bringing new arguments to a month old thread. I don't have the time to reread the whole thread to know exactly what the argument was all about and I don't know what Kage has to do with it as there doesn't seem to be a post by him in this thread, he isn't even mentioned at all.

Old thread plus you didn't read the quoted text. Laziness isn't an argument. Nor is trying to weasel yourself around what you said. Kage was just a comparison. You can do this anyways so this. Same line of thinking but you went a different direction. A non-issue comment meant to keep the issue from becoming a meltdown. Too bad people are so freaking touchy here.

[theFlu]

47 minutes ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

Dude, when you already have limited agency, losing more is unacceptable. Talk about weak arguments.

Weak? Yours is "I don't like it"?

[meganoth]

21 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

 

Old thread plus you didn't read the quoted text. Laziness isn't an argument. Nor is trying to weasel yourself around what you said. Kage was just a comparison.

 

I did read the quoted text. Probably I missed reading between the lines of my own writing? 😎

 

It seems I told someone he can do lots of stuff to avoid horde if he wants. Which is fine by me. It doesn't bother me much in my own gaming, I can very easily ignore that stuff (like creative menue, god mode, turn off zombies button...).

 

BUT what would bother me would be easy in-game ways to ignore the horde night, like it was in previous alphas with just driving around. I'm all for cm and zombie-turn-off options. I'm all against removing the vultures that target you on bike. And I don't see  that I do any weaseling with that statement. Can you point me to the place where I say something different?

 

21 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

 

You can do this anyways so this.

 

Here you lost me completely.

 

21 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

Same line of thinking but you went a different direction. A non-issue comment meant to keep the issue from becoming a meltdown. Too bad people are so freaking touchy here.

 

Wait. You wanted to prevent a meltdown to occur in a month old dead thread ? 😁. Commendable but probably the wrong place.

 

 

 

 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I did read the quoted text. Probably I missed reading between the lines of my own writing? 😎

 

It seems I told someone he can do lots of stuff to avoid horde if he wants. Which is fine by me. It doesn't bother me much in my own gaming, I can very easily ignore that stuff (like creative menue, god mode, turn off zombies button...).

 

BUT what would bother me would be easy in-game ways to ignore the horde night, like it was in previous alphas with just driving around. I'm all for cm and zombie-turn-off options. I'm all against removing the vultures that target you on bike. And I don't see  that I do any weaseling with that statement. Can you point me to the place where I say something different?

 

I think he mean that perfect base against zombie should be main target for players. that's why people making castles or why prison was so good base in walking dead. Well  only game similiar to 7dtd about defending base against zombie is metal gear survival and there zombie attack all you base not just making hole in one point ignoring rest of walls - so zombie AI is too smart because in some point perect base would be able to  be passive defence that just need kiling special zombies and fixing weaked points of defence.

 

This is just interpretation what he mean and he not mean cheating as using god mode or turn off zombie but make perfect base against zombie

[Roland]

He means he does not like it when the developers add zombie behaviors to the game that end what used to be a player choice.

 

Players used to be able to drive around on horde night without any risk. Homing Vultures ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to dig under ground a couple of blocks on any night and be 100% safe. Digging zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to tread water and be 100% safe from zombies. Swimming zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to stand behind 1.5 meter gaps and melee and shoot zombies without risk. Ducking and crawling zombies ended that player choice.

Up until about a week ago players were able to stand on poles and be 98% safe. Pole hitting zombies ended that player choice.

 

In his mind the developers are taking away important player choices.

[Matt115]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

He means he does not like it when the developers add zombie behaviors to the game that end what used to be a player choice.

 

Players used to be able to drive around on horde night without any risk. Homing Vultures ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to dig under ground a couple of blocks on any night and be 100% safe. Digging zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to tread water and be 100% safe from zombies. Swimming zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to stand behind 1.5 meter gaps and melee and shoot zombies without risk. Ducking and crawling zombies ended that player choice.

Up until about a week ago players were able to stand on poles and be 98% safe. Pole hitting zombies ended that player choice.

 

In his mind the developers are taking away important player choices.

Well.... yep. 

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

He means he does not like it when the developers add zombie behaviors to the game that end what used to be a player choice.

 

Players used to be able to drive around on horde night without any risk. Homing Vultures ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to dig under ground a couple of blocks on any night and be 100% safe. Digging zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to tread water and be 100% safe from zombies. Swimming zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to stand behind 1.5 meter gaps and melee and shoot zombies without risk. Ducking and crawling zombies ended that player choice.

Up until about a week ago players were able to stand on poles and be 98% safe. Pole hitting zombies ended that player choice.

 

In his mind the developers are taking away important player choices.

 

Ok, I'll reply to this then (and also reply to the "player agency" stuff). In my own weasely ways naturally 😁

 

According to the first definition found on the internet player agency is "The player's ability to impact the story through the game design or gameplay.". If more player agency is needed in 7D2D then I would guess the best way would be some mode where you can clean cities from zombies and they stay that way for a while at least. I don't see agency as an umbrella term or alias for player choice, so lets drop that and stay with "player choice".

 

A balanced game has balanced options for the player. Invest more work or more ingenious ideas or more skill and you get better results. I don't see where any of above is balanced with the standard method of "building a horde base and defending it".

 

If you want a horde base where you can afk on actual horde night (in the limits of the game, without "cheats") then you should need to expend more work or build a more ingenious base. But if you can reach that impervious base design with a simple two block hole there is something amiss.

 

And afk bases are possible. They need lots of steel and a good design, or just lots of steel (and some repair work for continued usage). Why is is it not enough that such bases are possible, why must this AFK-horde night be possible without effort as well, in vanilla ?

 

If we just sum up choices and call that player choice then yes, a two block hole increases player choice. But is it really a choice when one choice is far superior to any of the other choices ?

Put to the extreme, can we count it as two alternatives if a game lets you choose between getting 1 gold and getting 1000 gold? I would call that a fake choice that does not really increase player choice in a meaningfull way. And it can only work if you tell the player outside of the game that he will destroy his fun if he takes the 1000 gold.

 

Player choice is a good thing, no question. But please not at the cost of balance, as that is a good thing as well, including balance in the choices the player gets. Unless the game just wants to be a pure sandbox where no balance is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

If you want a horde base where you can afk on actual horde night (in the limits of the game, without "cheats") then you should need to expend more work or build a more ingenious base. But if you can reach that impervious base design with a simple two block hole there is something amiss.

 

Player choice is a good thing, no question. But please not at the cost of balance, as that is a good thing as well, including balance in the choices the player gets. Unless the game just wants to be a pure sandbox where no balance is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. well afk usable base ( i mean by this you keep working stations, crates and you can get in and out of this base without destroing anything is not possible because you will still deal with vultures

2. Not rly - darks souls is good example for that - some builds were so such op and it was pretty fun. ER had few op builds too but they were nerfed because PVP

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

1. well afk usable base ( i mean by this you keep working stations, crates and you can get in and out of this base without destroing anything is not possible because you will still deal with vultures

 

Have you never heard of doors, walls and ceilings ?

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

2. Not rly - darks souls is good example for that - some builds were so such op and it was pretty fun. ER had few op builds too but they were nerfed because PVP

 

Can't comment on that, don't know dark souls. Were they intentionally imbalanced? Were they usable from the start?

[Matt115]

10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Have you never heard of doors, walls and ceilings ?

 

 

Can't comment on that, don't know dark souls. Were they intentionally imbalanced? Were they usable from the start?

1. they can be destroyed pretty fast - idk if vultures can attack blocks honestly. But rest of zombies can be eliminated by sea of spikes 

2. Well this depends - so builds yes some not ( but even if some weapons was expected to be very powerfull devs didn't expect they can so much powerfull by combaining some items) . And most of them were usable from start because you know dlc added new stuff so we can say that this ones was good until they were added in dlc ( probably a little to op that expected). Well elden ring change a lot about that  but previouse game worked that way. Btw funny example from L4D1 - witch was designed to be deadly trap but people find a way to make her weak - shotgun shot from point blank can 1 hit kill witch. it was unintended but in l4d2 they added even achivment for 1 hit kill witch. So some " overpower" things can be left because 99% players will not even figured how use it - me for example i learned about "one man army noob tube " build from MW2 maybe in 2019 ( this game  was released in 2009)

[Rotor]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

But if you can reach that impervious base design with a simple two block hole there is something amiss.

 

 

Well carp.....how about 3 blocks?

 

<===SA

[Roland]

According to the first definition found on the internet, it appears that “3” is not significantly different than “2” as far as the value it represents. 
 

So let’s drop “3” and proceed to at least “4”

 

[Boidster]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

So let’s drop “3” and proceed to at least “4”

 

FIVE IS RIGHT OUT!

 

/somebody better get this reference of my faith in humanity will take another hit

[meganoth]

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

1. they can be destroyed pretty fast - idk if vultures can attack blocks honestly. But rest of zombies can be eliminated by sea of spikes 

 

A (steel) door can be destroyed pretty fast by vultures ? An AFK base can be built as a sea of spikes? 

 

Not my experience.

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

2. Well this depends - so builds yes some not ( but even if some weapons was expected to be very powerfull devs didn't expect they can so much powerfull by combaining some items) .

 

This sounds to me like the usual "Developer balances the game in limited time, users find new ways that throw off the balance".

We were talking about deliberate changes to balance the game, not accidental imbalance.

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

 

And most of them were usable from start because you know dlc added new stuff so we can say that this ones was good until they were added in dlc ( probably a little to op that expected). Well elden ring change a lot about that  but previouse game worked that way. Btw funny example from L4D1 - witch was designed to be deadly trap but people find a way to make her weak - shotgun shot from point blank can 1 hit kill witch. it was unintended but in l4d2 they added even achivment for 1 hit kill witch. So some " overpower" things can be left because 99% players will not even figured how use it - me for example i learned about "one man army noob tube " build from MW2 maybe in 2019 ( this game  was released in 2009)

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

23 hours ago, meganoth said:

If you want a horde base where you can afk on actual horde night (in the limits of the game, without "cheats") then you should need to expend more work or build a more ingenious base. But if you can reach that impervious base design with a simple two block hole there is something amiss.

Actually, in A20 it is possible to have an AFK base by simply removing one block of a particular POI.

 

Take a look at this

 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

FIVE IS RIGHT OUT!

 

/somebody better get this reference of my faith in humanity will take another hit

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

A (steel) door can be destroyed pretty fast by vultures ? An AFK base can be built as a sea of spikes? 

 

Not my experience.

 

 

This sounds to me like the usual "Developer balances the game in limited time, users find new ways that throw off the balance".

We were talking about deliberate changes to balance the game, not accidental imbalance.

 

 

If you made 120 min limit probably.  Without vultures probably yes but this would need at least 2 players and... luck because this depends how many trees have near your base + if your base is cement POI - so in theory if you would made line of 40-60 lines of spikes would be good enough - mining at night and  tree cutting at day

 

Well.. they had time but they decided to not change that ( some things that was broken- like useless or works to good but  because hitbox was bigger that model of weapon or some upgrades were broken

[meganoth]

41 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

If you made 120 min limit probably. 

 

What has that to do with an AFK base?

 

41 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Without vultures probably yes but this would need at least 2 players and... luck because this depends how many trees have near your base + if your base is cement POI - so in theory if you would made line of 40-60 lines of spikes would be good enough - mining at night and  tree cutting at day

 

Your theory is wrong. You talk as if there was only one way for an AFK base. And the best part, a sea of spikes base does not even work as an AFK base because demolishers will simply run through the spikes unhindered and undamaged.

 

And vultures will waste their breath all night against a steel door. And even if one steel door were not enough for this task, put 2 steel doors in their way. Done.

 

[Matt115]

Just now, meganoth said:

 

What has that to do with an AFK base?

 

 

Your theory is wrong. You talk as if there was only one way for an AFK base. And the best part, a sea of spikes base does not even work as an AFK base because demolishers will simply run through the spikes unhindered and undamaged.

 

And vultures will waste their breath all night against a steel door. And even if one steel door were not enough for this task, put 2 steel doors in their way. Done.

 

Longer day and night = longer blood moon horde right?

So demolisher don't take dmg from spikes? what the hell?

[meganoth]

10 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Longer day and night = longer blood moon horde right?

 

Oh wow. Even a rabbit scratching at the door would be a deadly adversary if I just wait long enough.

 

But it doesn't matter. If a pack of vultures needs 50% of a horde night for a steel door then make it 2 doors one after the other. If that pack needs only 25% of a horde night, make it 4 doors.

 

Or place a simple gun turret that only shoots at the vultures attacking that door. In that case you could even try a wooden door and it would probably work.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

So demolisher don't take dmg from spikes? what the hell?

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

Just now, meganoth said:

 

Oh wow. Even a rabbit scratching at the door would be a deadly adversary if I just wait long enough. But it doesn't matter. If a pack of vultures needs 50% of a horde night for a steel door then make it 2 doors one after the other. If that pack needs only 25% of a horde night, make it 4 doors. Or add a simple gun turret that only shoots at the vultures attacking that door. In that case you could even try a wooden door and it would probably work.

 

 

 

 

hm this could works. I mean it's more easy to get afk base early  before getting gun turrets

[meganoth]

5 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

hm this could works. I mean it's more easy to get afk base early  before getting gun turrets

 

Yes, but before you get gun turrets you also have only the weakest vultures to cope with. And you can get a turret or a dart trap plus motion sensor/tripwire or an electric fence or a sledge turret, almost anything will effectively hinder the vultures to do much damage.

 

 

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Yes, but before you get gun turrets you also have only the weakest vultures to cope with. And you can get a turret or a dart trap plus motion sensor/tripwire or an electric fence or a sledge turret, almost anything will effectively hinder the vultures to do much damage.

 

 

Well i figured now how it could looks like thx !

So AFK base is possible

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 4/19/2022 at 6:13 PM, Roland said:

He means he does not like it when the developers add zombie behaviors to the game that end what used to be a player choice.

 

Players used to be able to drive around on horde night without any risk. Homing Vultures ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to dig under ground a couple of blocks on any night and be 100% safe. Digging zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to tread water and be 100% safe from zombies. Swimming zombies ended that player choice.

Players used to be able to stand behind 1.5 meter gaps and melee and shoot zombies without risk. Ducking and crawling zombies ended that player choice.

Up until about a week ago players were able to stand on poles and be 98% safe. Pole hitting zombies ended that player choice.

 

In his mind the developers are taking away important player choices.

Wow, talk about misrepresenting what I was saying. I literally have only complained about digging and it's the implementation that I don't like. I've voiced an issue with the digging animation and some quirks of the AI that made pit bases almost useless for a while, but the fact that zombies can dig isn't in itself an issue to me. This is just me but thinking zombies aren't zombies at all.

 

Horde nights should have risk. Vultures that target you when you're in/on a vehicle? Good. Vultures that destroy the vehicle? Not a concern of mine but a bit moronic in a real world setting so I'll say that is an eyeroll.

 

Digging zombies are fine depending on how the mechanic is done. Zombies that don't dig so much as beat the dirt into submission with their kneecaps is simply @%$#ed. The addition of digging zombies is ok though I would have implemented it differently. Whatever. Yeah, I'm not a fan of how they implemented it. You got me on this one thing.

 

The only time I've hid in a lake from the horde was a horde night in A17 or 18 when they first updated the AI (I started on pc with A16) where I'd already died three freaking times and had zero chance of making it to morning without additional deaths. Not the type to do that unless my game is going to turn into a death loop. Swimming zombies are fine.

 

Creating barriers is fine. Zombies ducking under barriers is also fine. Who would even complain about this? Crawling zombies? They've been in the game in one form or another for a long time.

 

Never once complained about the Fun Pimps taking away cheese bases. Just makes sense. Zombies attack what's in front of them. Duh.

 

My issues with the Fun Pimps changing the game had to do with things like how the zombies dig. The 50 zombies in one hole with a bonus on block damage when multiple zombies attack the same block was insane. Their gamestage based loot was terrible. The current system in A20.5 where some POIs have higher gamestages and different biomes have their own gamestages is what I consider perfect. I personally prefer learn by doing over the learn by brain aneurism as it is now and I believe the Fun Pimps were lazy when they changed it rather than working to balance it. Still a good game so a minor gripe. I'm not excited for learn by looting as I think it's a fine system that has been taken too far. You receive more of what you're spec'ing into? That means that literally everybody has to loot. Forget the days of people divvying up the responsibilities. I might be misinterpreting what's been said, but that's how it looks to me. Their lack of balancing and a favoring of a system overhaul has often resulted in people switching from predominantly crafting to predominantly looting and then back again. This is the type of thing that has been an issue from alpha to alpha. Their changes to the loot system made it boring and a chore to actually loot. The exciting POIs were basically off-limits until you killed enough zombies, upgraded enough blocks, and mined enough ore to have a decent gamestage. 25+ blunderbusses after looting a bunch of POIs was just demoralizing, freaking useless weapon too. People do not have to agree with me but I wasn't a fan of that.

 

So, yeah, I've had issues with the game. Just mostly not the ones you tried to say I did. Just stop putting words in my mouth.

[Matt115]

28 minutes ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

 

 

My issues with the Fun Pimps changing the game had to do with things like how the zombies dig. The 50 zombies in one hole with a bonus on block damage when multiple zombies attack the same block was insane. Their gamestage based loot was terrible. The current system in A20.5 where some POIs have higher gamestages and different biomes have their own gamestages is what I consider perfect. I personally prefer learn by doing over the learn by brain aneurism as it is now and I believe the Fun Pimps were lazy when they changed it rather than working to balance it. Still a good game so a minor gripe. I'm not excited for learn by looting as I think it's a fine system that has been taken too far. You receive more of what you're spec'ing into? That means that literally everybody has to loot. Forget the days of people divvying up the responsibilities. I might be misinterpreting what's been said, but that's how it looks to me. Their lack of balancing and a favoring of a system overhaul has often resulted in people switching from predominantly crafting to predominantly looting and then back again. This is the type of thing that has been an issue from alpha to alpha. Their changes to the loot system made it boring and a chore to actually loot. The exciting POIs were basically off-limits until you killed enough zombies, upgraded enough blocks, and mined enough ore to have a decent gamestage. 25+ blunderbusses after looting a bunch of POIs was just demoralizing, freaking useless weapon too. People do not have to agree with me but I wasn't a fan of that.

 

So, yeah, I've had issues with the game. Just mostly not the ones you tried to say I did. Just stop putting words in my mouth.

Well i agree zombie are too much smart. And about LBL- this system is bad. But 25+ blunderbusses is... cool.  You know - ofc BB looks stupid but find 20 pistols in military base is totaly logical

Edited June 5, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)