Demolisher balance

[Roland]

On 4/26/2021 at 12:33 PM, paladylan said:

because I continually get emails with every reply

 

Never have I felt a stronger compulsion to respond to any thread....

[Maharin]

10 hours ago, paladylan said:

Post a picture.

 

 

[Boidster]

16 hours ago, starscream said:

never before did i have a base where a motion sensor camera on a timer periodically opens and closes corridors to split a zombie wave down separate paths. it took a while and many ruined bases to get here.

 

That sounds pretty cool and definitely something you could put into a picture.

[FA_Q2]

Am I the only one that finds demolishers far inferior threat to cops by a large margin too?  Demolishers are really easy to take care of because you can control their explosion.  Sure, they are priority targets and have the most hp BUT they do not explode unless I make a mistake.  They ONLY explode because of things I did.  It does severely limit the placement of traps but electric fences, the most powerful trap by a massive margin, are completely unaffected and blade traps are still useable just specific in how they must be placed.

 

Cops, OTOH, explode based on HP loss, something that I cannot always control.  My traps may whittle one cop down to exploding and that explosion can set off more cops.  It is not entirely unusual for cops to chain half a dozen explosions.  They are the reason I started adding electric vault doors to my walkways so I can cut one off and send the horde to a fresh one when the defense get wrecked from a bunch of random zeds exploding.

[Kattla]

On 4/27/2021 at 7:08 PM, paladylan said:

Post a picture.

 

As you wish.

 

I did a test of electric fences early in A19. 1 fence (1 active, 2 inactive on each side), 3 demolishers. They look a bit angry, after beeing shocked for hours. All the damage dealt to them was with the electric fence. No damage done to the blocks. Perfect stunlock in the test. Not fully perfect on horde nights, but still quite good. Not sure if this still works though.

 

Image hidden with spoiler tag to not take as much space. Just 3 demolisher beeing shocked.

Spoiler

 

 

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, Kattla said:

 

I did a test of electric fences early in A19. 1 fence (1 active, 2 inactive on each side), 3 demolishers. They look a bit angry, after beeing shocked for hours. All the damage dealt to them was with the electric fence. No damage done to the blocks. Perfect stunlock in the test. Not fully perfect on horde nights, but still quite good. Not sure if this still works though.

 

It works but I had something like 7-9 electric fences in a row and I could easily repair them in my base.  The only thing I had trouble were the wrights when I got up to higher days (90+).

[starscream]

9 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

That sounds pretty cool and definitely something you could put into a picture.

 

can't put it into a single picture. it's just a motion sensor on a 5/10s power delay (or different delay based on your particular setup), activated on zombie sighting.  the sensor activates a powered hatch which blocks off the "short" path to where you are for however many seconds you want. any zombie that does a "where are you" update calculation while the hatch is up will choose the longer path. thus, splitting the waves down separate paths.

it's not an even split, but works well enough in some setups, and you can employ multiple sensors/paths with whatever devious trap rooms you can conceive of.

 

of course if you want more precise control, you can have the hatches activated by switches in your control room.

 

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

I don't outright hate demolishers but I definitely do not think that they are properly implemented. It just screams to me that TFP tried to implement RPG elements into the character types and mashed together two character types into one. The fast twitch sprinter who deals large scale damage quickly but can be quickly dispatched, with the slow lumbering tank that deals damage over time. It is not whining to say that this is a balancing error that is blatantly obvious. It's not even a subjective opinion. Everybody who's played RPGs knows this. Base design can fix this, but it also does limit the usable base designs. It isn't the first game mechanic that broke certain base designs, i.e. digging zombies that dig with their knees, but it does do this. I'm sure TFP are listening and are going to decide if they think it's something that needs to be fixed/adjusted. In all likelihood the demolisher is not going to change. This is why mods are king.

[meganoth]

29 minutes ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

I don't outright hate demolishers but I definitely do not think that they are properly implemented. It just screams to me that TFP tried to implement RPG elements into the character types and mashed together two character types into one. The fast twitch sprinter who deals large scale damage quickly but can be quickly dispatched, with the slow lumbering tank that deals damage over time. It is not whining to say that this is a balancing error that is blatantly obvious. It's not even a subjective opinion. Everybody who's played RPGs knows this. Base design can fix this, but it also does limit the usable base designs. It isn't the first game mechanic that broke certain base designs, i.e. digging zombies that dig with their knees, but it does do this. I'm sure TFP are listening and are going to decide if they think it's something that needs to be fixed/adjusted. In all likelihood the demolisher is not going to change. This is why mods are king.

 

I doubt they tried to implement a zombie on par with the existing ones. It is more likely that they were going for a boss monster.

 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

It just screams to me that TFP tried to implement RPG elements into the character types and mashed together two character types into one. The fast twitch sprinter who deals large scale damage quickly but can be quickly dispatched, with the slow lumbering tank that deals damage over time. It is not whining to say that this is a balancing error that is blatantly obvious. It's not even a subjective opinion.

 

As you say, everyone knows about traditional conventions when it comes to enemies but this isn't to say that a high damaging enemy must move slow and that a low damaging enemy must move quickly. Demolishers don't follow the expected conventions but that doesn't mean they are improperly implemented. It just means that TFP didn't want to follow the same tropes. Kind of like their definition of zombie doesn't follow conventional doctrine.

 

If Demolishers were slow and lumbering then, I agree, most any base design would work so many more base designs would be possible but...that's because your one strategy would be to snipe them before they ever reached you. It would be THE strategy and a much easier threat than they are.

[Laz Man]

The demolisher is the perfect later game equalizer to humble the most experience or inexperienced base builder.  Its an interesting read from the when the OP posted this thread in 2020 to now where many have already adapted and figured out strategies for them.

[7daysexpert]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:35 PM, Roland said:

 

As you say, everyone knows about traditional conventions when it comes to enemies but this isn't to say that a high damaging enemy must move slow and that a low damaging enemy must move quickly. Demolishers don't follow the expected conventions but that doesn't mean they are improperly implemented. It just means that TFP didn't want to follow the same tropes. Kind of like their definition of zombie doesn't follow conventional doctrine.

 

If Demolishers were slow and lumbering then, I agree, most any base design would work so many more base designs would be possible but...that's because your one strategy would be to snipe them before they ever reached you. It would be THE strategy and a much easier threat than they are.

dont you ever dare think about adding resident evil style zombies 😛

[MechanicalLens]

I don't hate the Demolishers as a whole, but personally I have issues with the frequency of their spawns. I'm so glad I discovered XML editing.  Fighting 30-40+ Demolishers on some horde nights just isn't an enjoyable experience for me.

[bachgaman]

 

at the moment, their main problem is that they appear only when the player is tired of playing (he has all the best items etc)

[pahbi]

Would be cool if there was some kind of lure for demolishers.

 

When you see the demolisher, you throw the lure, and that buys you some time to kill it, or maybe even strategically use it to kill other zombies.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by pahbi (see edit history)

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, pahbi said:

Would be cool if there was some kind of lure for demolishers.

 

When you see the demolisher, you throw the lure, and that buys you some time to kill it, or maybe even strategically use it to kill other zombies.

 

 

There is live bait in the game, up to 8 of them in multiplayer 😉

[canadianbluebeer]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

There is live bait in the game, up to 8 of them in multiplayer 😉

 

Actually, there are up to 7 live bait. The OTHER players. 😛

 

(at least they are bait for ME.  Their opinion may differ)

 

😛

 

[meganoth]

33 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

 

Actually, there are up to 7 live bait. The OTHER players. 😛

 

(at least they are bait for ME.  Their opinion may differ)

 

😛

 

 

I see you are not ready for really drastic measures. It almost seems like it were just a game to you??? 😎

 

[canadianbluebeer]

On 6/19/2021 at 12:28 PM, meganoth said:

 

I see you are not ready for really drastic measures. It almost seems like it were just a game to you??? 😎

 

 

Of course it's a game!   Shoot the green glowy thing and then run!

Bonus points for causing a chain reaction.

Double score for taking out someone else at the same time.

😛

 

(only time I really have to shoot them is if someone drops a bunch on me using MischiefMaker. Then I really do try for a chain reaction)

(by the time they show up on BM nights, the darts are waiting.  Ok, I'm also really good at shooting them in the head with the M60)

 

[eXSe]

The Demolisher debate reminds me of the LBD one with two sides deeply entrenched on their side of the argument 🙂

 

I, personally, find him immersive braking, but on the other hand I understand his existence, because what's the other way to dig out players from their ultra-mega super bases? It seems to me that the whole concept has turned into a catch 22 situation, or a circular one... better defences - stronger zombies - better defences yet - more stronger zombies - etc.

[Lemmers]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:48 AM, eXSe said:

I, personally, find him immersive braking, but on the other hand I understand his existence, because what's the other way to dig out players from their ultra-mega super bases? It seems to me that the whole concept has turned into a catch 22 situation, or a circular one... better defences - stronger zombies - better defences yet - more stronger zombies - etc.

Perhaps the demolisher should be gated behind the main story line in the future and not just tied to gamestage. Then it's not until you get a negative reputation with another faction that they start strapping bombs onto roided out bodybuilders in gimp suits.

[saltychipmunk]

I do not understand why the demolisher or the burnt zombie exist as is. 

Like they have a theme going here , human zombies  just wearing what they wore  when they became zombies augmented by radiation fueled mutations.

 

that easily explains zombie soldiers wearing full kit , bikers and contruction workers wearing their helmets 

it explains the feral zombies and the actual feral whites.

it explains the cops being barf bags 

it even explains the obvious reskined glowy zombies 

 

But  demolishers would have blown themselves up ages ago, and the burnt zombies being walking volcanoes just looks odd.

 

It probably would not have been that much trouble to implement the same mechanic as a demolisher  using bloated cysts rather than  a big gamified 'dont shoot here' button 

and they could just tone down the fire on the burn zombie to actually make them look like .. walking burnt corpses.  I feel like that would be creepier too.

 

But otherwise i like  the idea of wierd special zombies. hell i like the idea of larger  zombies  like the  really big one they cut from development

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, saltychipmunk said:

 

But  demolishers would have blown themselves up ages ago, and the burnt zombies being walking volcanoes just looks odd.

 

The backstory (from my recollection) is that the Demolishers are a creation of the Duke, or that was the thinking.  It has been awhile since that was originally discussed.