Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[n2n1]

And you want us to dumb them down? Whats wrong with you players, you've lost touch with your roots !

You troll MM! These things have long been in need of models!

[madmole]

Hi,

 

I just recently started playing the game and i just want to say thanks to the dev...

 

The dam game is just OODLES of FUNZ and 17.2 runs great on my system..

 

Nearly 1000 hrs in and i plan to go at least that again or more,

Now thats just AMAZING value for a measly 20 bucks.

 

Also great to see u guys still updating and optomizng the game.

 

Good for you...

Excellent!

[madmole]

Its actually gotten better in 17.2 it is decently hard to amass a massive amount of dukes now, at least by just selling stuff. I find I am actually using the quest system more to make dukes than I used to before. even with 4 in better barter, they still don't pay much for goods.

 

100% madmole there buddy. Ok maybe a touch of Lathan and Gazz, but I did all the balancing and pricing work. Its still probably OP on quests but I'll evaluate that when I test 18. I'm back, the whole game will rock again, I need a few builds to get her in ship shape. In Pimps we trust.

[Trankitas]

No plans on stopping after alpha.

 

You should make a video talking about post-gold plans, because it seems like people don't get that finishing alpha doesn't mean you will stop making the game better. They think once alpha is over the game will be too.

 

Trankitas.

[madmole]

people learned to manipulate the ai

 

And they always will. And we'll get yelled at for making them too smart or too hard or two dumbn.

[madmole]

I don't think AI was that hard, even at first iterations, but I do think mining in A17 is way worse than A16. I'm not talking about stamina, but yield.

 

Are you kidding? They shredded concrete in under 2 game hours.

[madmole]

Haters...

 

It is not hate mr. Mole, it all comes with love even if the wrapping could be better at times.

 

I sincerely hope that you do not take the feedback you get from us as hate and negativity all the time. It might come off as harsh at times, I agree but again, it is all from the love for the game.

 

You see, you and your crew are doing something unique, something unheard of, something exceptional...allowing us to be right up here with you (almost) every step of the way.

 

I for one heart you all for it, but I can also see that it touches something within us, the feeling of “ownership” to what we are a part of and that is what creates the wrapping we deliver the feedback in.

 

I rarely make claims but I do feel I can claim this. No other game developer have created their game as openly and close to their community as TFP have done with 7 Days and I thank you for it.

Thats nice (gives a hug and holsters the hidden dagger silently).

[n2n1]

Please tell, what resolution the new HD icons will have ?

[meganoth]

I'm sorry but I really don't see how the new gun parts is a good idea. Either give us back the real gun parts: stock, barrel.. or just don't have gun parts and have broken guns. To me this is just another bad idea that will be reversed again in the following alpha. I don't see the point and it is a very ugly system.

"Hello, I'd like to assemble my own desktop computer so I am looking for parts"

"Sure thing, just grab a big bag and fill it with anything"

"Do I need to take any specific parts?"

"Nono just grab anything really, the more the better"

 

"Hello, i'd like to assemble a vehicle".

 

See first two pictures here: https://www.heise.de/make/meldung/Maker-Faire-Hannover-lockt-mit-Metallkreationen-und-Workshops-zum-Mitmachen-4128302.html

[DaVegaNL]

Book and perk localization is 99% done. There's some new functionality we're waiting on but most of the content is coming online. We're progressing nicely.

 

Okay thanks! Good to hear! If you finish before the start of july I will let you play with my rock collection.

[JaxTeller718]

I don't get how some people have hundreds or even thousands of hours into a game they paid $30 tops for years ago can still complain so hard. I get if your not a fan of Alpha 17 dropping in and and throwing a complaint since the dev's are here and reply back. What I don't get is complaint after complaint from the same dozen people whom all probably have gotten more than there money's worth years ago.

I was an xbox player (not a great version but got my monies worth) and upgraded my pc specifically to play A17 & I enjoy it. If you play it correct it can get pretty difficult and even a few jump scares here & there. If you manipulate the AI or take the easy path to the loot area's in the poi's then of course its easy & boring to you. But it took you how many hours to learn those easy paths? I'm the guy that follows the dev lighted path and likes falling into those zombie traps to finally make it to the wonderful loot at the end & because of this wonderful loot the old school Working stiffs/Shot gun store ect.. are no longer needed.

To end with... I can't wait for alpha 17.3...18...19.. & gold it'll be fun for me, sorry to those whom lost hope (or as I like to say burned out after 2,000+ hours).

 

I love the game. I love the team. I have over 200 games in my library and ONE has over 500 hours. If i DIDNT love the game Id throw it on the pile with the rest of the junk I own.

 

I know that sounds silly. But I only complain because Its the only game in my collection worth complaining about. If i had lost hope, given up or hated the game Id delete my account and just move on. But to me I think its a game worth arguing for.

[AtomicUs5000]

people learned to manipulate the ai

 

Well, yeah. That's the goal. There's a difference between defeating AI and "cheesing" it because it has obvious flaws at the basic level. In A16 and A17... both cheese.

[RestInPieces]

ya, but I'm talking about building a base that can withstand the horde and keep you safe. I'm not talking about doing nothing but set a block on the ground or run around all night. I'm saying that you can actually build an actual base consisting of dozens and dozens of blocks and traps and they don't have to be arranged in only two different strategic schemes that exploit the AI and you can survive and have an enjoyable base defense experience on bloodmoon.

 

Your two ideas are fine too. But I wasn't talking about doing something minimal.

 

I remember when you first did a video showing how you could chop out a gap of blocks at the top of a stairway in a 2story house and the zombies would just run up and fall down the gap and keep doing that all night long. Did you use that EVERY time for every bloodmoon? Did you feel you were locked into that design? Did you come on the forums and say that building was dead because the exploit you found was the only way to build now?

 

I think that what they are trying to say is that "an obvious choice isn't much of a choice". Much like our discussion about power leveling and people ruining their own gameplay experience, because they chose the most optimal route, since the game itself indirectly "tells them to" (as it should). None is locked into the optimal choice, but consciously going against it, briefly put, is knowingly gimping one's self. TFP just have to do their best to eliminate these AI exploits. As guppy said every AI can eventually be exploited but if they introduce a few random layers, it will even the leveling field between choices.

 

Finally some excitement instead of grumbling. I might have the energy to read a few more posts....

 

Always remember : grumbling = interest for your game.

Even grumbling should add up to your energy.

[AtomicUs5000]

How so? In 17.0 everyone was crying how hard the game is, what has changed?

 

Since A17.0? Probably the stamina. It was really harsh initially. The AI situation was already figured out in 17.0

[Weazelsun]

You should make a video talking about post-gold plans, because it seems like people don't get that finishing alpha doesn't mean you will stop making the game better. They think once alpha is over the game will be too.

 

Trankitas.

 

They already have, some of us just willfully ignore and let the lizard brain part of us instead slather out words in a negative way.

[beHypE]

Haters...

 

It is not hate mr. Mole, it all comes with love even if the wrapping could be better at times.

 

I sincerely hope that you do not take the feedback you get from us as hate and negativity all the time. It might come off as harsh at times, I agree but again, it is all from the love for the game.

 

You see, you and your crew are doing something unique, something unheard of, something exceptional...allowing us to be right up here with you (almost) every step of the way.

 

I for one heart you all for it, but I can also see that it touches something within us, the feeling of آ“ownershipآ” to what we are a part of and that is what creates the wrapping we deliver the feedback in.

 

I rarely make claims but I do feel I can claim this. No other game developer have created their game as openly and close to their community as TFP have done with 7 Days and I thank you for it.

 

@Madmole

I just wanted to quote that because it gets across the idea just right. Among everything else I really, really value the fact you're out here A LOT these days. It ultimately reminds us that this is people we're talking with that make decisions, reflect and work on them and come back on the forums with even more, much needed, optimism - even if you'd probably rather smash in your screen at times. Regardless of what A18 will bring to the table, i'm actually enjoying reading your input day in day out. That alone payed the price tag of the game lol so a big thanks for the whole ride.

 

I hope you know there's no personal grief when you read some of the stuff in here. We tend to take things a little bit too much at heart, probably because this game has been for quite some years now a big part of our gaming library. Very few games I'll remember 20 years from now when I tell my kids, this one is very likely to make the list though. Even if honestly, describing it ain't the easiest at times, if you have a good line or two that works as a good sumup i'll take it

 

Very hyped about 17.3 by the way !! A group of friends and I are awaiting the release to start a new longterm playthrough, it's a drop in the ocean but worth something ! Hope you'll nail it !

[Viktoriusiii]

I love the game. I love the team. I have over 200 games in my library and ONE has over 500 hours. If i DIDNT love the game Id throw it on the pile with the rest of the junk I own.

 

I know that sounds silly. But I only complain because Its the only game in my collection worth complaining about. If i had lost hope, given up or hated the game Id delete my account and just move on. But to me I think its a game worth arguing for.

 

getting a special +1 from me. Couldntt say it better, although I'm a bit more on the giving up side

[spacepiggio]

We'll just make it super dark and blurry all the time and hide the cheese voxel graphics.

 

But you like to play in the Dark MM,

I remember watching a lot of your early Gameplay Vid's & screaming at the monitor when you entered a dark POI,

C'mon place a Torch or get a Mining Helmet so I can see dammitt...Arrrggghhh

[Weazelsun]

And they always will. And we'll get yelled at for making them too smart or too hard or two dumbn.

 

I don't know, I feel like the radiated should be smarter, since they've managed to live long. The way I would implement it is:

 

* normal zombies would be dumb and just follow the path over and over and damage blocks while doing so

* feral would be somewhat smart and follow the path but would try other ways of getting to you either by digging or clawing the walls

* radiated would be the smartest and instead of following the path would instead head directly to where the player is and destroy the obstacle that would allow them the easiest way in

 

Of cousre the above would mean death for those like me who play with others that exploit the zombies. But, a player would still be able to adpat to the changing dynamics.

[Menace312]

IMHO this feeling is just the normal way with any game you get to know. I remember how I felt when I played the game for the first time, sitting in a hut in my first night and a single zombie "knocking" at the door. I needed 2 hours to dispatch him. I never will experience that again because in the same situation I would dispatch this single zombie much faster and with A LOT LESS fear and indecision.

 

Maybe mining and building is somehow different now. But maybe it is you that is different. You already built a bungalow, a tower, a subway street..., there are just a lot of ideas you already tried out and it isn't the same to do it again. In four words: "Been there, done that"

 

This is a very good point!

I often think this myself, reading other posts here.

 

But I did factor this into my considerations, if you can believe that. At the very least, you now know that I was thinking about it, before i posted.

[Odetta]

Well, yeah. That's the goal. There's a difference between defeating AI and "cheesing" it because it has obvious flaws at the basic level. In A16 and A17... both cheese.

 

I think the only way to have anti-cheese AI is to make it like this:

 

1. Have 3 sets of AI behavior - Say "Smart, Dumb, Stupid" as an example

 

2. Then have these behaviors randomly change at random times. So a Smart zombie changes into a stupid zombie, then into a dumb zombie, then into a stupid zombie again, etc. at random intervals.

 

3. Have a small percentage of zombies only have one type of AI, say 10%

 

Zombies will be random and chaotic and with the changing AI intervals; unpredictable.

[madmole]

Just a reminder to people who forgot or just jumped on the bandwagon -

 

Zombies actually function in A17. They don't run around in circles mumbling about how many toothpicks fell on the ground. They come at you. They require more than the ability to aim at a confused jogger with a broken leg now. The experience was a huge upgrade.

 

The POI's in A17...are stunning. Huge mazes with zombies lurking around every corner. Surprises of secret tunnels under buildings leading to other buildings.

 

Increased variety in building details, animals, weapons, and vehicles.

 

There is improvements and tweaks to be done, but we are definitely heading in the right direction. This is not a game designed to be everything to everyone, but with mods, modlets, and upcoming features...it's about as close as you can get. I can't wait for A18 and what it will bring.

 

I will respectfully make suggestions as I think of them, but recognize that they are only suggestions and the developers are the ones putting in the real work and it is their vision, not mine.

 

...just rambling.

Yes the complaints about 17's zombie AI being bad continue to boggle my mind, when you look at how bad they were before 17.

[AtomicUs5000]

I think the only way to have anti-cheese AI is to make it like this:

 

1. Have 3 sets of AI behavior - Say "Smart, Dumb, Stupid" as an example

 

2. Then have these behaviors randomly change at random times. So a Smart zombie changes into a stupid zombie, then into a dumb zombie, then into a stupid zombie again, etc. at random intervals.

 

3. Have a small percentage of zombies only have one type of AI, say 10%

 

Zombies will be random and chaotic and with the changing AI intervals; unpredictable.

 

Yeah variation is key, whether that comes in randomness or overlapping defined sets. In another post I used the ghosts from the original Pac-Man as an example. There are only 4, but each has its own variation of the AI. In order to be successful against the AI as a whole, you need to understand its parts. For such an old game, and such basic AI, there exists a system that can't just be cheesed. You have to learn it, understand it, and react to it. This is skill. Not "cheesing", not "exploiting", not "manipulating".

[Guppycur]

ya, but I'm talking about building a base that can withstand the horde and keep you safe. I'm not talking about doing nothing but set a block on the ground or run around all night. I'm saying that you can actually build an actual base consisting of dozens and dozens of blocks and traps and they don't have to be arranged in only two different strategic schemes that exploit the AI and you can survive and have an enjoyable base defense experience on bloodmoon.

 

Your two ideas are fine too. But I wasn't talking about doing something minimal.

 

I remember when you first did a video showing how you could chop out a gap of blocks at the top of a stairway in a 2story house and the zombies would just run up and fall down the gap and keep doing that all night long. Did you use that EVERY time for every bloodmoon? Did you feel you were locked into that design? Did you come on the forums and say that building was dead because the exploit you found was the only way to build now?

 

I do it EVERY blood moon, although now it's 3 blocks. But I'm also not complaining about the ai, I love it... I do wish they mixed it up a bit but whatever... What I don't like is this weird idea there are multiple ways, when yes technically, but most of them are bad.

[madmole]

Because the new A.I pathing system has made zombies on horde nights to predictable. You can cheese the A.I. to easily. There are 2 basic horde night setups for A17.

 

1. A tall ramp of death.

2. Some kind of maze system.

 

The zombies dont try to break through walls anymore if they can "see" a way to you.

 

Horde nights should have zombies attack from all sides at once, and were they dont follow a single path like sheep.

 

This isn't true at all. Maybe 17.2 has some regressions. Maybe Faatal can respond.