The Gaffer Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 How so? In 17.0 everyone was crying how hard the game is, what has changed? You just have to much control on where and how the zombies attack. It reminds me now of one of those defence games where the enemy will just pile in one way and you can just pick them off. I just stand on a platform and have another platform in front of me that they run up and you just shoot the hell out of them and any that fall off just run back around and you do the same again. I just wish they attack more random and not some path that they will follow. Something just does not seem right with the pathing system to me. Having the zombie try and get to you and not attack what you are standing on makes it easy. Example type on youtube Shock Box Horde Base- Gain Exp and you will see what i am talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Random is the new smarter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Because the new A.I pathing system has made zombies on horde nights to predictable. You can cheese the A.I. to easily. There are 2 basic horde night setups for A17. 1. A tall ramp of death. 2. Some kind of maze system. The zombies dont try to break through walls anymore if they can "see" a way to you. Horde nights should have zombies attack from all sides at once, and were they dont follow a single path like sheep. Yes yes yes horde nights have never been so easy. I can make a ramp and they just run up it and fall off and while they are doing that you are shooting them to bits and gaining loads of EP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Because the new A.I pathing system has made zombies on horde nights to predictable. You can cheese the A.I. to easily. There are 2 basic horde night setups for A17. 1. A tall ramp of death. 2. Some kind of maze system. The zombies dont try to break through walls anymore if they can "see" a way to you. Horde nights should have zombies attack from all sides at once, and were they dont follow a single path like sheep. Sorry but that is bs. I don't use either of those methods and my base is just fine. I pretty much build as I always built. I suggest you try other methods besides the two you mentioned. Just because there are two methods that cheese the AI, it doesn't mean they are the only two methods. There were actually very few base designs that I a saw pre-Alpha 17. Stilt bases and column 50 bases pretty much over and over and over and over again. Also, I am seeing zombies attack my base at multiple points. I hope that you like others seem to be doing are actually referencing A17.2 and not just your memory of A17.0.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Sorry but that is bs. I don't use either of those methods and my base is just fine. I pretty much build as I always built. I suggest you try other methods besides the two you mentioned. Just because there are two methods that cheese the AI, it doesn't mean they are the only two methods. There were actually very few base designs that I a saw pre-Alpha 17. Stilt bases and column 50 bases pretty much over and over and over and over again. Also, I am seeing zombies attack my base at multiple points. I hope that you like others seem to be doing are actually referencing A17.2 and not just your memory of A17.0.... You just set up a path for them to take and like he says like sheep they will just pile in that way. I can set something up very early on and it will never get destroyed no matter what horde comes at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecolours Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Sorry but that is bs. I don't use either of those methods and my base is just fine. I pretty much build as I always built. I suggest you try other methods besides the two you mentioned. Just because there are two methods that cheese the AI, it doesn't mean they are the only two methods. There were actually very few base designs that I a saw pre-Alpha 17. Stilt bases and column 50 bases pretty much over and over and over and over again. Also, I am seeing zombies attack my base at multiple points. I hope that you like others seem to be doing are actually referencing A17.2 and not just your memory of A17.0.... Go look on YouTube for A17 horde night builds and those two were by far the most popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drithyl Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 My complaining began when y'all started the simplification process for the console port, but I've always maintained this is still by FAR the best game out there, but it's definitely been going downhill since y'all started the rpg elements... they just don't work. I love the RPG elements. They can work just fine. They just need tweaking. Having both looting and leveling as elements of progression is excellent. Plus, since those RPG bits are moddable, it gives modders even more freedom to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I don't want to get your hopes up, but I gave the leash to another designer for A17 and he wasn't here on the forums and he was a little out of touch with our game. I'm here, I'm reading all this stuff and its in the back of my mind as we're balancing and making changes. I know what you guys want, but its going to take some time to get there. A18 should be a sufficient step forward to placate most haters and A19 hopefully will be awesome. Who's the hater? (Hate since 2014y!) I hate A17, but i recognize its great technical step forward, and thank you for the improved support of mods, the work of builders POI (...except "dungoen style"), work with transport, some work with textures and a lot of work on the transition to a new engine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsniper343 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Yes yes yes horde nights have never been so easy. I can make a ramp and they just run up it and fall off and while they are doing that you are shooting them to bits and gaining loads of EP. well, if you enjoy exploiting the AI then go for it. But if you play with a standard base it is difficult. My horde base is nothing new or elaborate, but it is effective. a 9x9 square made of reinforced concrete walls are 5 blocks high. One 3x3 entrance and a 2x3 pillar in the center for structural support. two blade traps are placed just inside the front entrance along with barbed wire fences and spikes to slow them down. Spikes are placed along the floor and walls inside the rest of the room. Im up top in an iron bar cage shooting down on incoming zeds with a modded quality 3 shotgun. It survived the day 42 horde on survivalist difficulty. They wore out my blade traps and spikes in the first 2 hours, if I did not have my shotgun and ak they would have shredded the place. At the end of the day they did a fair amount of damage, I had to replace 12 blocks of concrete and patch up the rest. The resources required for this meager base are fairly intense. The iron bars being much worse than the concrete. And with wandering hordes of feral wights showing up this requires more frequent repairs and grinding. I have been noticing wandering hordes stopping near my base, rather than continue to wander on as they used to do. On a side note, I keep noticing everyone saying they have endless amounts of duke coins. I must be missing something, my better barter skill is level 4 and I still get crappy prices. I have a whole chest full of pistols I have looted that are worth 40-50 coins. and One piece of steel from him costs about the same. That seems a little ridiculous to me. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I love the RPG elements. They can work just fine. They just need tweaking. Having both looting and leveling as elements of progression is excellent. Plus, since those RPG bits are moddable, it gives modders even more freedom to do things. They're tied together (levelling and looting), that's the problem. It's actually a very linear track of progression, which removed the sandbox element almost entirely. Sandbox > Rpg. You /can/ marry them successfully, but they didn't. Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 well, if you enjoy exploiting the AI then go for it. But if you play with a standard base it is difficult. My horde base is nothing new or elaborate, but it is effective. a 9x9 square made of reinforced concrete walls are 5 blocks high. One 3x3 entrance and a 2x3 pillar in the center for structural support. two blade traps are placed just inside the front entrance along with barbed wire fences and spikes to slow them down. Spikes are placed along the floor and walls inside the rest of the room. Im up top in an iron bar cage shooting down on incoming zeds with a modded quality 3 shotgun. It survived the day 42 horde on survivalist difficulty. They wore out my blade traps and spikes in the first 2 hours, if I did not have my shotgun and ak they would have shredded the place. At the end of the day they did a fair amount of damage, I had to replace 12 blocks of concrete and patch up the rest. The resources required for this meager base are fairly intense. The iron bars being much worse than the concrete. And with wandering hordes of feral wights showing up this requires more frequent repairs and grinding. I have been noticing wandering hordes stopping near my base, rather than continue to wander on as they used to do. On a side note, I keep noticing everyone saying they have endless amounts of duke coins. I must be missing something, my better barter skill is level 4 and I still get crappy prices. I have a whole chest full of pistols I have looted that are worth 40-50 coins. and One piece of steel from him costs about the same. That seems a little ridiculous to me. What am I missing? I have endless amount but its also rare i use the trader to buy anything. Try making stuff like beds to sell and turn oil shale in to gas to sell. I always make a lot of dukes by selling gas. apart from that i just sell all the loot i get. I never need the guns because i can always build better ones than what i can find. I understand what you are saying about the bases but with a game like this you have to find the best way to not die. I cannot dumb down a base risking my life if i know how to deal with them with ease. Horde nights are just boring now because its so easy to get around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iBane Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I don't want to get your hopes up, but I gave the leash to another designer for A17 and he wasn't here on the forums and he was a little out of touch with our game. I'm here, I'm reading all this stuff and its in the back of my mind as we're balancing and making changes. I know what you guys want, but its going to take some time to get there. A18 should be a sufficient step forward to placate most haters and A19 hopefully will be awesome. First there's no Azor Ahai and now this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trankitas Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Because the new A.I pathing system has made zombies on horde nights to predictable. You can cheese the A.I. to easily. There are 2 basic horde night setups for A17. 1. A tall ramp of death. 2. Some kind of maze system. The zombies dont try to break through walls anymore if they can "see" a way to you. Horde nights should have zombies attack from all sides at once, and were they dont follow a single path like sheep. Well... if you want to ruin your 7dtd experience... go ahead and do it Most players don't exploit systems, so i don't really see the point of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Any ai can be cheesed. Shrug. What would be cool is if there were a few different ai packages and the Zed's chose from them randomly. Some path, some block break, some climb over each other, etc... That's all doable for regular hordes but I don't think the 7 days hordes follow those rules. Maybe make Feral an ai task instead of an override FOR ai tasks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minandreas Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Any ai can be cheesed. Shrug. Yup. Hell, people have found ways to cheese the hell out of Sekiro bosses AI. And that's GOOD. I've seen many argue, and justifiably so, that the zombies are actually too smart. A huge part of the fun in a video game is outsmarting the enemy. And lets be real, zombies ought to be VERY easy to outsmart... What would be cool is if there were a few different ai packages and the Zed's chose from them randomly. Some path, some block break, some climb over each other, etc... That's all doable for regular hordes but I don't think the 7 days hordes follow those rules. Yes. Do want. Variety is really what zombies in this game lack period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drithyl Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 They're tied together (levelling and looting), that's the problem. It's actually a very linear track of progression, which removed the sandbox element almost entirely. Sandbox > Rpg. You /can/ marry them successfully, but they didn't. Yet. You can, indeed. You can make them complementary so that one needs the other (say, needing to find certain things to learn certain skills or raise some attributes, and/or needing to know certain skills to access some areas), you can make them totally independent (where looting and leveling each bring completely different benefits and you can progress on both sides independently), etc... Of course, if both progression systems are stacked on top of each other in a way that they both increment the same values then having them both is unnecessary. Usually the complementary approach works best. It's a softer way of gating than level gating things that relies more on the player's performance, so you can reward good and smart performance instead of "you can't access this content until you have grinded 10k xp". An example: ***** You need to find The Nuclear Power Core to craft the Unobtainium Power Drill that is the only thing that can break Adamantite Blocks that lock you from a certain area which itself contains another Magnificent Reward. But to obtain it, not only you need to go out to explore the world and face its many perils to find it; you also need to defeat Boss Z, who happens to have a vulnerability that you can exploit through a Convenient Skill which you might have learned by leveling up. If you're a very good player, you can still beat Boss Z without said skill, so you're not gated from obtaining The Nuclear Power Core as soon as you can find it, but the skill helps a lot. ***** The issue here being that such a combination of progression systems requires way, way more design work and is not easy to implement in a procedural world either. There are definitely some ways to tweak both systems to work more like that, but ultimately one can always ask for more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 They're tied together (levelling and looting), that's the problem. It's actually a very linear track of progression, which removed the sandbox element almost entirely. Sandbox > Rpg. You /can/ marry them successfully, but they didn't. Yet. Well said. They haven't indeed, RPG elements should complement survival/sandbox gameplay, but they currently work "against" it. The main reason LBD complemented the game better (despite its own shortcomings), was because xp sources/progress were mostly compartmentalized. And after they added zombie kill global xp it only got worse. Any ai can be cheesed. Shrug. What would be cool is if there were a few different ai packages and the Zed's chose from them randomly. Some path, some block break, some climb over each other, etc... That's all doable for regular hordes but I don't think the 7 days hordes follow those rules. Maybe make Feral an ai task instead of an override FOR ai tasks. Again well said, the key is some extra layers of randomness. I've been spamming for varied zombie AI profiles forever. Not only when it comes to pathing, but for every type of behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Really tfp just needs multiple methods to achieve goals, if they're going to make the goals a requirement for progression... That's a solve all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Sorry but that is bs. I don't use either of those methods and my base is just fine. I pretty much build as I always built. I suggest you try other methods besides the two you mentioned. Just because there are two methods that cheese the AI, it doesn't mean they are the only two methods. There were actually very few base designs that I a saw pre-Alpha 17. Stilt bases and column 50 bases pretty much over and over and over and over again. Also, I am seeing zombies attack my base at multiple points. I hope that you like others seem to be doing are actually referencing A17.2 and not just your memory of A17.0.... Yeah A16 had pillar and stilt bases, and A17 has maze and ramp bases. Multiple streamers and videos and personal building myself proves it as fact, as does dozens of others here. Sure you can build any way you want, your argument is its BS because people build to exploit the AI. Yep. They do. Same as A16 so the AI is JUST as cheesy and just as easily circumvented JUST LIKE 16 so I have to ask, if you agreed 16 had exploit bases that work, and 17 has exploit bases that work how is his statement BS? - - - Updated - - - Well... if you want to ruin your 7dtd experience... go ahead and do it Most players don't exploit systems, so i don't really see the point of your post. So what was everyone up in arms over in 16 then? Just dont build pillar bases or use iron bar floors. Problem solved. Yet everyone lamented how BAD the AI was in 16. 17 is by far better yes, but I am hopeful that no one thinks the AI is complete and perfect because it isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 You just set up a path for them to take and like he says like sheep they will just pile in that way. I can set something up very early on and it will never get destroyed no matter what horde comes at it I wasn't confused about how to do it. I merely called bs on the statement that there are 2 basic horde night setups. That is untrue. You don't have to set up a pathway and you can still survive. Making a stairway up to a drop off and watching the zombies circle around forever was in Alphas 1-16. Go look on YouTube for A17 horde night builds and those two were by far the most popular. Most popular doesn't mean the only way or that there is a restriction on creativity or freedom. Some people like to build elaborate gauntlets. Designing them is fun. Others just like to exploit the game however they can. But just because an exploit exists doesn't mean you are limited to using it. Who cares if it is popular on Youtube? Doesn't make it the only way. In previous alphas digging a huge pit down to bedrock and setting up pillars with gaps the zombies couldn't squeeze through but the player could attack through was all over youtube. It doesn't mean it was the only way. Once you know an exploit exists it is your choice to ignore it or use it until such time that the developers can remove it. I don't care how people choose to play their game but I am a bit tired of people proclaiming that there are now only one or two possible base designs and that building is no longer viable because there are no choices. Bollocks!!! Like I said, I am aware of the exploits on youtube. I send links for them to faatal. But I don't have to use them and do just fine. Thinking you can't survive with classic base designs is a fixed belief that isn't true (despite what you see on Youtube) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Roland. You /could/ build a one block base and stand on it, but that doesn't really count... ...just like we /could/ run into a pack of zombies and stand there, or we /could/ bare knuckle a feral wight, but these are all stupid things to do, so in viability, we CAN'T do these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Yeah A16 had pillar and stilt bases, and A17 has maze and ramp bases. Multiple streamers and videos and personal building myself proves it as fact, as does dozens of others here. Sure you can build any way you want, your argument is its BS because people build to exploit the AI. Yep. They do. Same as A16 so the AI is JUST as cheesy and just as easily circumvented JUST LIKE 16 so I have to ask, if you agreed 16 had exploit bases that work, and 17 has exploit bases that work how is his statement BS? As I explained while you were typing this and I was typing that, the BS is this idea that I have seen posted time and again that players are restricted to one or two methods of building-- that choice is gone. AI exploit builds always have been around and always will be around. Player choice to utilize them always has been around and always will be around. I don't care if people use the exploits but if they come on the forums and proclaim that it is the only way I'm going to call BS on that. So what was everyone up in arms over in 16 then? Just dont build pillar bases or use iron bar floors. Problem solved. Yet everyone lamented how BAD the AI was in 16. 17 is by far better yes, but I am hopeful that no one thinks the AI is complete and perfect because it isnt. No one on the dev team thinks it's complete. They all understand what "work in progress" means. Its just doomsayers who keep treating features that are in progress as though they are complete. But in the end, no matter how well faatal works to obfuscate behavior and randomize pathways there WILL be a choice available to build a base that exploits their weaknesses consistently every single time and at some point the devs aren't going to do anything about it and players will have to decide. And those who just can't help themselves to do the exploit and then feel the game is too easy and boring...hopefully they'll get at least 20-30 hours before they move on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Roland. You /could/ build a one block base and stand on it, but that doesn't really count... ...just like we /could/ run into a pack of zombies and stand there, or we /could/ bare knuckle a feral wight, but these are all stupid things to do, so in viability, we CAN'T do these things. ya, but I'm talking about building a base that can withstand the horde and keep you safe. I'm not talking about doing nothing but set a block on the ground or run around all night. I'm saying that you can actually build an actual base consisting of dozens and dozens of blocks and traps and they don't have to be arranged in only two different strategic schemes that exploit the AI and you can survive and have an enjoyable base defense experience on bloodmoon. Your two ideas are fine too. But I wasn't talking about doing something minimal. I remember when you first did a video showing how you could chop out a gap of blocks at the top of a stairway in a 2story house and the zombies would just run up and fall down the gap and keep doing that all night long. Did you use that EVERY time for every bloodmoon? Did you feel you were locked into that design? Did you come on the forums and say that building was dead because the exploit you found was the only way to build now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I wasn't confused about how to do it. I merely called bs on the statement that there are 2 basic horde night setups. That is untrue. You don't have to set up a pathway and you can still survive. Making a stairway up to a drop off and watching the zombies circle around forever was in Alphas 1-16. Most popular doesn't mean the only way or that there is a restriction on creativity or freedom. Some people like to build elaborate gauntlets. Designing them is fun. Others just like to exploit the game however they can. But just because an exploit exists doesn't mean you are limited to using it. Who cares if it is popular on Youtube? Doesn't make it the only way. In previous alphas digging a huge pit down to bedrock and setting up pillars with gaps the zombies couldn't squeeze through but the player could attack through was all over youtube. It doesn't mean it was the only way. Once you know an exploit exists it is your choice to ignore it or use it until such time that the developers can remove it. I don't care how people choose to play their game but I am a bit tired of people proclaiming that there are now only one or two possible base designs and that building is no longer viable because there are no choices. Bollocks!!! Like I said, I am aware of the exploits on youtube. I send links for them to faatal. But I don't have to use them and do just fine. Thinking you can't survive with classic base designs is a fixed belief that isn't true (despite what you see on Youtube) Shooting them from behind a pillar made more sense than them just running up a ramp to fall down to run back up again while not doing any damage to what you are standing on. If they just attacked what you were standing on then there would be no problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Gave so much...they got paid for the job they did. Its a career they chose...a product they produced. Everyone nowadays forgets that part. You chose the job..you work..you get paid. A17 was supposed to have all the systems replaced and ready to build off of from decisions they made. It flopped. Now all the systems are being yanked or replaced again. Im just hoping its not another year and a half. PC was supposed to get more than Console because our systems could handle it. We were supposed to get quicker releases and patches..every couple of weeks i believe we were told. Everything went out the window on the best version to date. Now its just rip this out...replace this... to simplify and get to gold. I would bet that bandits will be a post gold update. But at least we have a 4x4 and a gyro..because now i can get across the map in 2 minutes. Its over johnny!! Just because some legacy players don't like it doesn't mean it flopped. Its outselling A16 big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.