Viktoriusiii Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Exactly. What we don't need is another boring-but-necessary grind. Thats the problem. You don't HAVE to do them. They wont balance around quests... so you can simply ignore them if you feel like it. You can also ignore traders right now if you dont feel like it. You dont need to build and can simply renovate a prefab. You dont HAVE to do the tedious work... but for those that do, there should be a great reward. If they're going to put quests in (which clearly they are) they should make them something that people do because they want to do them, not something that people don't enjoy but resign themselves to grinding out in order to enable future enjoyment. Enjoyment comes from doing different things. If you ONLY grind stone for 20 hours its boring. If you ONLY run between towns looting, its boring. If you ONLY hunt zombies one after the other its boring. If you only build without any resource restriction it gets boring. The mix is what makes it fun. And the more different possible paths you can go the better. I'm not saying "give us only exclusive ♥♥♥♥" I'm saying "don't make rewards an everyday item or amount of dukes" For 300 dukes I wont even leave the house. For 20 electric parts on the other hand... Or for 10 fertilizer... or for a great engine... (those are easy to come by in other ways like grinding electronics, digging in burnt land and grinding cars; not to mention traders) I don't want to do the quests just for fun. I don't want to do them at all. And that's why I'm against the idea that they should be rewarded in such a way that people who don't want to do them find them a necessary evil that they "have" to do now in order to have fun later. Never did anyone say "exclusive" stuff... just good stuff... stuff you dont get on an everyday basis... stuff that is worth the work. that generally a lot of people need or that is always a rarity. And just because YOU dont want to do them doesn't mean others should be punished for it I'm also not a fan of this barebone questsystem. But as it has been stated multiple times... its going to be expanded... and who knows how nicely it ties in with everyday survival then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SylenThunder Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I hinted at this before but now I’ll come out and say it. The traders are broken because they can be abused in a way that gets the player tens of thousands of dukes very quickly. In short, trading is the replacement for spam crafting for those who play this game like a race. Now it’s sounds like some of you are wanting quests to be balanced so they offer a competing pathway to the trader exploit— instead of fixing the trader exploit. I would much rather eliminate the ability to amass so much wealth so quickly so that the reward of 300 dukes actually is a tempting offer. @Tea: I am mostly on board with your logic but I also want passed-up opportunities to hurt. I think choices should be hard and the quests should be such that even those who don’t like quests will be tempted. There’s no way to know where that line is for everyone so a good variety of rewards is what is needed. If TFP can get it to a point where someone like you can easily ignore 60% of them, ignore 35% with some regret, and can’t pass up 5% of them then I think TFP will have succeed. I agree completely. In the current meta, I have absolutely no reason to do treasure hunts after about day 14. I can't do a mojority of the quests before then, and after then, they don't offer enough benefit for me to really care. Maybe when I max level they will help with skill points, but I haven't maxed a character on a single playthrough yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 Never did anyone say "exclusive" stuff... just good stuff... stuff you dont get on an everyday basis... stuff that is worth the work. that generally a lot of people need or that is always a rarity. And just because YOU dont want to do them doesn't mean others should be punished for it I'm also not a fan of this barebone questsystem. But as it has been stated multiple times... its going to be expanded... and who knows how nicely it ties in with everyday survival then. This barebone quest system is modular and editable. TFP will never be able to spend the time necessary to create enough variety so that players in RGW won’t eventually get repeats of the same quests. Even if TFP adds complexity once you’ve done it the first time you’ll just be going through the motions the next several times until you reach that point where you never take that quest again because you’re bored of it. But thanks to the nature of the system we will be able to get community created quest packs much like we can get prefab packs that will significantly add flesh to the bones. I’m sure we’ll get more comments that modders are doing more work than the devs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 @Roland - To be clear, I'm just proactively stating to make the mission rewards good enough to motivate players to do them. I know it's still early in the stages of development, so I want to get my 2 cents in before things get too far along; but as long as it's moddable, I guess it doesn't matter too much. Besides, it sounds like TFP is aware of balancing risk to reward... As to the traders being broken, it's not just the traders. The whole loot systems stinks for the most part - the 7 day hordes are usually worthless to loot, with the very rare exception of finding something kind of nice. @Tea - Necessary to further your survival doesn't mean it's available exclusively as a mission reward. -A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 Yeah but rewards are just loot tables. There won’t be a point of no return for reconfiguring what rewards are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nice Cup of Tea Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 @Tea: I am mostly on board with your logic but I also want passed-up opportunities to hurt. I think choices should be hard and the quests should be such that even those who don’t like quests will be tempted. There’s no way to know where that line is for everyone so a good variety of rewards is what is needed. If TFP can get it to a point where someone like you can easily ignore 60% of them, ignore 35% with some regret, and can’t pass up 5% of them then I think TFP will have succeed. Yeah, I can agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Rewards should be available from a variety of methods, so that the player isn't shoe horned into a specific type of gameplay. In medi, you can unlock things via books, quests, or points. I find it extremely fun, because I generally ignore quests... And another thing we do is front load 99% of the quests, so that you don't have to make a SECOND club just to continue your quest chain. You end up finishing quests without even trying... Very organic flow. Quest chains only make sense when they accomplish a goal (gather fibers, gather wood, stone, make a stone axe), not to finish a "group" (gotta wait to make a campfire until the quest says I can because I'm retarded). Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vedrit Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 front load 99% of the quests, so that you don't have to make a SECOND club just to continue your quest chain. You end up finishing quests without even trying... Very organic flow. I kinda wish 7DTD would do this. Made a couple sets of plant fiber clothes and 2 bedrolls because I was getting ahead of the quests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeRui Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Huge fan of the updated AI. I can't wait for there to be no more circle zeds! However, I am worried that the AI will be too good, for example, on a blood moon they will automatically know straight away how to get to the player. Smash door A > Run > Smash door B > Upstairs > Player. Hopefully they'll still be zombies, not mutant superhumans! (Please go through the layers of spikes and walls I have put up!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 14, 2018 Author Share Posted July 14, 2018 Huge fan of the updated AI. I can't wait for there to be no more circle zeds! However, I am worried that the AI will be too good, for example, on a blood moon they will automatically know straight away how to get to the player. Smash door A > Run > Smash door B > Upstairs > Player. Hopefully they'll still be zombies, not mutant superhumans! (Please go through the layers of spikes and walls I have put up!) faatal has said that randomization of their behavior (or at least percent chances of doing different behaviors than expected) will be added in as things develop. As of now the answer is that yes, they know exactly how to reach you. Sit on the roof of a house and ferals will run through the house to the best spot to break a hole in the wall so they can step out onto the roof and run over to kill you. With this greater ability on their part to find the path to eat your brain comes perfect predictability which can be exploited. Remove a critical block and they will all run to follow the new next best pathway. Replace the block and they'll all run back to the original best pathway. In the future faatal will work in some unpredictability to mess with us but for now they are all super smart engineers but super dumb single minded path followers. It will be fun to adapt to and extremely different to what we are used to. Even though it isn't ideal it is a great beginning and will be loads of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 faatal has said that randomization of their behavior (or at least percent chances of doing different behaviors than expected) will be added in as things develop. As of now the answer is that yes, they know exactly how to reach you. Sit on the roof of a house and ferals will run through the house to the best spot to break a hole in the wall so they can step out onto the roof and run over to kill you. With this greater ability on their part to find the path to eat your brain comes perfect predictability which can be exploited. Remove a critical block and they will all run to follow the new next best pathway. Replace the block and they'll all run back to the original best pathway. In the future faatal will work in some unpredictability to mess with us but for now they are all super smart engineers but super dumb single minded path followers. It will be fun to adapt to and extremely different to what we are used to. Even though it isn't ideal it is a great beginning and will be loads of fun. Twill be like old times, in that you'll need to actually prepare for a escape route if your passive defense fail. Can't wait to experience that type of feeling again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 14, 2018 Author Share Posted July 14, 2018 Twill be like old times, in that you'll need to actually prepare for a escape route if your passive defense fail. Can't wait to experience that type of feeling again. It has been very reminiscent of those early Alphas. Those who've played for a long time will get eerie familiar feelings and those who started recently are in for a big shift in how they play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobarg Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 How is the new skills system working for you Roland? No spoilers but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 How is the new skills system working for you Roland? No spoilers but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion. It wasn't hooked up until recently. There are some very cool surprises in store regarding the skill/perk/attribute system. I can say that there are some aspects of it that are "gain advancement by doing" and others that are "gain advancement by paying xp". The UI has been improved and the skills and perks have been reorganized based upon the attribute they're linked to. I know that agility is going to be a popular attribute to progress due to it affecting stamina but I bet strength might compete for being the fan favorite for a reason that is as yet unrevealed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobarg Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Given that we now have Attributes, Are we all starting at the same level or is there now some character creation? ie roll a handful of D20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 Given that we now have Attributes, Are we all starting at the same level or is there now some character creation? ie roll a handful of D20 In A17 we all start at level 1 in each attribute. I kind of doubt that will change because the developers tend to want to allow players to define their own differentiation through gameplay rather than pre-define it before starting. But I confess I don't know what their final plan will be for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobarg Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Thanks Roland, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 It has been very reminiscent of those early Alphas. Those who've played for a long time will get eerie familiar feelings and those who started recently are in for a big shift in how they play. I have to say, I'd change my poll answer if I could, because the AI improvement is sounding more and more like the absolute stand out feature of A17. I am VERY much looking forward to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombie4hire Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I am looking forward to the new AI more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 It wasn't hooked up until recently. There are some very cool surprises in store regarding the skill/perk/attribute system. I can say that there are some aspects of it that are "gain advancement by doing" and others that are "gain advancement by paying xp". The UI has been improved and the skills and perks have been reorganized based upon the attribute they're linked to. I know that agility is going to be a popular attribute to progress due to it affecting stamina but I bet strength might compete for being the fan favorite for a reason that is as yet unrevealed... Calling it now, Str will up inv size. As well as up melee damage most likely. I just hope inv doesn't START smaller than in A16. Or at least str upping inventory size is my guess as to why its a canditate for fan favorite. - - - Updated - - - In A17 we all start at level 1 in each attribute. I kind of doubt that will change because the developers tend to want to allow players to define their own differentiation through gameplay rather than pre-define it before starting. But I confess I don't know what their final plan will be for this. Reminds me of Oblivion, you pick starting stats, but how they raise after is linked to what skills you level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 It wasn't hooked up until recently. There are some very cool surprises in store regarding the skill/perk/attribute system. I can say that there are some aspects of it that are "gain advancement by doing" and others that are "gain advancement by paying xp". The UI has been improved and the skills and perks have been reorganized based upon the attribute they're linked to. I know that agility is going to be a popular attribute to progress due to it affecting stamina but I bet strength might compete for being the fan favorite for a reason that is as yet unrevealed... Even if rpgs are my favorite genre, the biggest of my concerns for this game is that rpg elements are being implemented at the expense of survival/realism. Can you reveal anything about how attributes are tried with death or the debuff/buff system, or compare it with what we have right now and wellness? As for the inventory, I am a pack rat myself, but would rather see the player start with a very small inventory which he will be able to upgrade with perks or containers (similarly to NEO scavenger). I personally enjoy choosing what to loot instead of spamming "take all" (like I do now), at least until I have the luxury to do so through progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 I’m not sure what all is entailed penalty-wise when dying. I know that it is possible to make dying much more punishing than it has been. Will they do that for the vanilla game? I don’t know. Maybe once Joel starts doing gameplay vids we’ll get to witness it a few times...heheh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSBX Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I for one can't wait to see what key is remapped *THIS* time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pico Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Calling it now, Str will up inv size. As well as up melee damage most likely. I just hope inv doesn't START smaller than in A16. Or at least str upping inventory size is my guess as to why its a canditate for fan favorite. I think you're on the money. But I'd wager that inventory size will be smaller initially, in order to put more motivation into boosting the strength attribute. It'd be sensible if abilities with cloth and leather also influenced inventory size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morloc Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 It'd be sensible if abilities with cloth and leather also influenced inventory size. And wheeeeeeelbarrows! -Morloc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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